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#281419 - 08/25/06 12:59 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
What's weird is naihanchi shodan is supposed to be a spectacular kata yet I find better applications in the other 2. Why is that? Maybe I'm just not good with bunkai. Oh well. There's lot's of tegumi in the others.
_________________________
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#281420 - 08/25/06 01:50 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: BrianS]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
From what I've heard, Naihanchi is categorized as a Heishu Kata and, like Sanchin kata, is a training/development form. Naihanchi='internal divided conflict'. Sanchin='3 conflicts'. The 'internal battles' generally thought to be referred to is mind, body and spirit. ...or in other words, the internal struggles that athletes 'dig deep' for. The difference being an exercise that the practioner has to 'deep deep' to perfect the principals of body dynamics that are benefital to self-defence by design.

Of course useful specific interpretations can be extracted from Haishu kata when broken apart, and it's a personal choice if it's trained that way, it's also a personal belief that these kata were not taught as application katas but rather as 'molding the clay' exercises. ...thats why they were taught first - to mold the student's body to strong body mechanics. Sanchin is typically still taught at first in Goju, but Naihanchi seems typically a brown belt kata, displaced by pinan 1-5.

For fun, I'd like to someday experiment with training naihanchi using sanchin methods. whats interesting to note is from what I see in the movements of naihanchi, except for the lateral position of the stance/body, most of what the arms are doing can be found in various other kata across systems. Same with Sanchin, except with IT'S own characteristic of the hourglass boxer's stance. what the hands are doing can be found elsewhere if you are looking for application.

The reason it's better to look at the open hand katas (kaishugata) for application vs. haishugata, is because kaishu kata shows the relative angling and timing of upper/lower body much better.

look at the directioning parallels with kaishu vs. haishu : naihanchi & sanchin basically address 2 directions (I know you can read more directions into it, but c'mon naihanchi goes left and right and sanchin goes front and back). kaishu kata addresses angles in 8 directions (45 degrees).

just some thoughts...

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#281421 - 08/25/06 02:32 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Are you guys reading what I have written for the past couple of years on Naihanchi? It is the ultimate inside fighting kata and the foundation of all shorin ryu!!! Please seek out qualified teachers, there are not many left these days. Think 45 DEGREE ANGLE, that is where the attack is coming from. This from the side and back to the wall stuff is preschool. Maybe back to the wall is meant figuratively like your back is to the wall there is not where to go, use Naihanchi and live. Again, this is the problem with reverse engineering, you start fixing what is not broken and forget the main principles of fighting in shorin ryu.

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#281422 - 08/25/06 07:30 PM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
you've written great stuff on the subject.
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=37&Number=15840836

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=10&Number=9951586

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=10&Number=9952012

...to name a few.

I'm not saying the direction of the incoming attack, I'm talking about the direction of response relative to the angle of attack.

In naihanchi, if you expect me to interpret this for all-in-one application...

attack: someone attacks from the front.
lower body response: naihanchi dachi.

attack: someone attacks from a 45 degree angle.
lower body response: naihanchi dachi.

attack: from the side.
lower body response: naihanchi dachi.

sorry, not likely.
clearly naihanchi is not intended for an all-in-one package for actual application. By that I mean, sure it probably has very cool stand-up grappling principals (if taught), but I just don't see responding to an incoming attack with a horse stance....unless immediately setting up into a judo-like throw. (in my limited opinion) Kusanku and Chinto for instance look much more reasonable for reactive response interpretion. Then naihanchi training could come into play when in your clutches.

like I said, just thoughts for conversation...

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#281423 - 08/25/06 08:07 PM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: BrianS]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
B,
If I were to draw the applications in a more relaxed and natural stance the correlation to the form would be less obvious to the uninitiated. They would say "that doesn't look like the form". So the drawing if taken literally can look impractical or even absurd. The illustration as a story needs a begining, middle and an end. If a person counted out movements 1... 2...3....4 most people see the numbers as the place where the application happens when they many times happen on the ... When I get some more time maybe I can show other posibilities of those same movements.

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#281424 - 08/26/06 07:02 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
From the applications I have seen of this kata(tekki) ED I am agree ing with medulant.It is effective inside fighting.

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#281425 - 08/26/06 07:33 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: ANDY44]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I'm reading if you care to elaborate. and who was saying it doesn't contain inside fighting? I'm not arguing that, if you read my posts.
I'm merely hypothisizing for the sake of conversation and understanding 'A' potential focus of naihanchi study (non-application focus), not taking a poll of who agrees with who - the only time I care about the popular vote is for elections.
If there is no elaboration of specific thoughts/experiences or even guesses on the subject, there is really no need for head nods.

sorry to sound harsh, just trying to draw out specific opinions.

so you train inside applications for naihanchi, cool. next question: how do you position TO the inside after an incoming attack without moving your lower body? or are the applications you practice assuming you are already inside?

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#281426 - 08/26/06 08:30 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
for me one of the key messages of naihanchi application is the cross step to position yourself to one side of the attacker, who is in front of you, a bit left or a bit right - but in front of you.

ie cross step at an angle, straighten up directly (ish) to the side. The attackers attack should position them in 'your' space, so no need to step forward 'big' (ie use the kosa dachi) as in say the Pinan.

Often we are 'dragging' limbs/necks/bodies with Naihanchi step technique, set up by a load of lovely strikes/low kicks.

IMO it is absolutly an application kata, sanchin is a different animal and I agree can be considered 'tanren' or training.

Of course naihanchi as every other kata delivers fantastic training benefits as well, power sourcing, posture, hip flex etc etc. However Naihanchi 'really' focuses on those things due to it's repetative, simple format and short presentation.

I teach Pinan Sho/Ni then Naihanchi Sho/Ni and believe this to be a good method of teaching the basis of shorin ryu technique before the 'classical' kata, begining with seisan.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#281427 - 08/26/06 08:34 AM Re: Naihanci kata [Re: oldman]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Oldman,

your post re your drawings is exactly what was mentioned/discussed previously about using the Naihanchi Dachi in application, the toes should be straight forward or more likely out just a little, 22.5 degrees works for me!

In the kata I train them at straight forward for power generation reasons and form, in application it all 'lossens' up a little, it has to - to work.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#281428 - 08/26/06 09:51 AM Re: Naihanchi kata [Re: Ed_Morris]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
how do you position TO the inside after an incoming attack without moving your lower body?
Hi ED

And how would I get inside ED?

Your second question
or are the applications you practice assuming you are already inside?


My answer
They can be practiced stand alone yes.


Hi Ed again
The anwer to your question.Im going to be as cryptic as you normaly are.
so as I see it the kata Naifanchi,translated from okinawan

to "stepping with stealth"?

which is used as a "tanren"

kata on the birth place of karate.

To answer your question while still nodding my head and totaly agreeing with medulant in that some of you guys dont read what he writes.

Does the Naihanchi kata being practiced in the place where karate came from just use the horse stance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motobu_Choki

This gentle man used Naihanchi.In fact the way he uses it exactly how I would expect it to be used from a "Fighter".
I have some where on my computer an old black and white film/vidio of him drilling it with another famouse karate ka.
They dont just use horse stance either.

So Im going to be cryptic here, just like you are in your own thought provoking way, and say to you seek out the old black and white film of him drilling the kata.Or look at the kata being used in the place karate came from. There in lies your answer.Then in one of your classes work out how to use the technique to get inside an attack

Practice the techniques as a stand alone method

Then have someone as i did throw full contact techniques at you and make the thing use able.

Then use what you have in full contact sparring.(but pull on some techniques after all ukes are of little use injured.
After all isnt that kata was for? Usable techniques?
No good to me if they have no use.Then it becomes a dance.

I dont mind your attempts at sounding harsh Ed, My training partners can be harsher.




How was your mawashi class?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 10:53 AM)

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