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#281392 - 08/24/06 09:06 PM Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same?
Darthmaul Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 16
I am looking into taking FMA's and the schools by me are either Arnis or Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I was wondering, are the styles pretty much the same? How are the different?

Thanks.

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#281393 - 08/24/06 11:30 PM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: Darthmaul]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
google is our friend..

I have no clue what kind of kali that is and what separates it from the rest. But all kali/escrima/arnis hold the same core principles and techniques. All seem to have similar striking angles and footwork. Its kind of like saying what kind of TKD do you do?
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#281394 - 08/28/06 07:31 PM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I think Pekiti-Tirsia gives a little more emphasis on knife techniques. The only examples i've seen of PT in action are knife sparring clips, and I hear it referred to as a knife art all the time.

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#281395 - 08/30/06 08:42 AM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: ShikataGaNai]
kroh Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 103
Loc: Rhode Island, USA
Hey guys...

Let me see if I can help with this. I am a Pekiti Tersia student from Rhode Island. Although I have been in Kali (Inosanto Lineage and a family system) for quite a while, I have recently started training with this group. I have had a single seminar with GT Leo Gaje and I found him to be extremely professional and knowledgeable with little or no BS time during the entire seminar. One of the best I have been to (and at age 69, the man moves like a panther).

First of all... you might want to go to the Yahoo Group where they discuss PK. PEKITI TERSIA. Mr Gaje regularly monitors the board and is very quick to help out where he can.

Pekiti tersia (to cut into small peices) is a very effective art from the Phillipine Islands that has a heavy emphasis on bladed combat. All manner of weapons and tactics are used but they favor fighting with the blade if possible (unless a gun is present and then there is little doubt what comes next). The footwork and body mechanics of this system require them to be very mobile so there is a lot of movement in what you do. Many of the Pitbulls ( what the groups call themselves) like to fight to test out what they are doing. If you like one of those schools where forms and socialization is as important as the class...go some where else.

If you are looking for a fighting method that is brutal and severe as well as something with depth for a lifetime...this is definately for you. I would highly recomend this system especially if you are military or law enforcement. If not...the techniches and what not might be a bit severe from a self defense standpoint.

Regards,
Walt


Edited by kroh (08/30/06 08:44 AM)
_________________________
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#281396 - 12/07/06 02:29 PM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: Darthmaul]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Here is something I have come across that might help. This DVD has introductions about four martial arts, one of them being Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. Here is the link compare styles. While I haven't bought the DVD yet, it does seem to be above board. I met Master Gage at the Black Belt Magazine Festival of Martial Arts this year and he is very serious and competent. One of the impressions I received is that he is very focused on the knife side of self-defense. Something that echoes what kroh and ShikataGaNai said as well. Hope this helps.
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#281397 - 01/17/07 12:28 AM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: Darthmaul]
TJMAC Offline
Stranger

Registered: 01/16/07
Posts: 1
I am a new student to Pekiti Tirsia martial arts. I think I may be able to help with the unclarity of FMA and some of the different arts. I just spent the last 3 weeks in the Philippines studying one on one with Grand Tuhon. I ate,slept,learned, and bled with that man.
This is my own personal opinion and it is not meant to create any anymosity. I feel Kali/Eskrima/Arnis is a very misguided art in the US. First allow me to briefly explain the difference between these three so called styles.
The Philippines was under the influence of Hinduism for 800 years stemming from Indonesia, Malaysia, New Guinie, Madagascar) which was called the Sri-Visaya empire. In Hindu the term Kali refers to the goddess of war and destruction. After that period, the Philippines were under the control of the spaniard (Ferdinand Magellan-whom they eliminated)for 500 years. The spaniards had there own arts such as estrada, fencing, etc... They saw this indigenous art of the Philippines and refered to the stick fighting has Arnes (Arnis) or Arnes de mano (hand with a stick). The term Arnes also stems from Harness such as protection. Arnis commonly known refers to stick fighting. Then the spaniards also saw stick and blade fighting and referred to it as Esgrima (now known as Eskrima). Eskrima means stick and blade.
The term Kali as a verb means to scrape. The root word Kalis means sword. No where in the Filipino language dating back to Babagin (original spoken language) or today's dialects such as Illongo (Tuhons native language), Tagolog, etc... is there a reference to Arnis or Eskrima. In the Filipino sandscripts you can find Ka and Li but you can't find Arnis and Eskrima. Ka actually means respect, honor, majestic, highness. (I don't remember what Li means-sorry).
It is actually ignorant to refer to a Filipino martial art as Arnis or Eskrima. When one does that they are using a spanish term to refer to a Filipino martial art. The term Arnis was even very popular in parts of the Philippines during the 50's, 60's and 70's and that is where it gained its popularity (by those who didn't know). Many of the FMA's you see today are not true Filipino styles even though they are taught by Filipinos. You can't authenticate there art. For example, Modern Arnis, I feel is not a true Filipino art. Remy Presas (who was best friends with Tuhon Gaje despite the rumors that go around about that) did not teach a Filipino style. Remy was a karate man. Karate was very popular in the Philippines that is why you will see a lot of Karate techniques in arts like Modern Arnis, Balintawak (boxing), Doce Paras, etc... If you go back to the lineage of these grandmasters you will see that they were all karate based. I'm not taking anything away from these arts because I feel they have great things to offer but you can't authenticate them. Pekiti Tirsia celebrated there 100 year anniversary and no other art can say that. Pekiti Tirsia is the only Filipino martial art recognized by the government today hence why the Force Recon Marines and the Filipino police force train in Pekiti Tirsia under Maginoo Mandala (equivalent to a 6th Dan) Rommel Tortal (Tuhons nephew).
Kali is an art that is tight nit within families. Some we don't even know about. The true art of Kali is still somewhat a closed society.
Here in the US we a grossly misguided in the Filipino way. Everyone is out to make a dollar. They will rip off other arts and make videos. If you want to learn the truth I suggest you go there and see for yourself like I did.
So to answer your guestion, no Pekiti Tirsia and Arnis are not the same.

Side note- what's up Walt. You know who this is and you know about my travels. All I have to say is what a humbling experience.

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#281398 - 01/17/07 06:31 AM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: TJMAC]
kroh Offline
Member

Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 103
Loc: Rhode Island, USA
HEY!!!

How is the trip going? Are you still there? Great post Brother. Don't be a stranger.

Regards,
Walt
_________________________
Fight the Good Fight

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#281399 - 02/03/07 12:11 PM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: TJMAC]
KJ63 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Midwestern U.S.
TJMAC,

This has to be one of the most misinformed posts I’ve seen in a long time, which leaves me wondering where I should start without offending you or whoever it was who gave this information to you…

I lived in the Philippines for roughly 4 years. Two years while in the Marine Corps and two years after. My wife is Filipina, and we go back quite often. I have trained in the Doce Paras system and the Modern Arnis system.

The history lesson you give us is shoddy at best, with much of it being nothing more the pure speculation or one of many possibilities. Much of the history of the Philippines is unknown include the origins of its MAs. Historians (both native and foreign) have been researching this since the 40’s, without reaching any exact conclusion. Most of what we know comes from Spanish record which I will admit, as with all ruling classes, can be biased, but then again so can native folklore and mythology. Now to correct some things:

Quote:

The Philippines was under the influence of Hinduism for 800 years stemming from Indonesia, Malaysia, New Guinie, Madagascar) which was called the Sri-Visaya empire.



This is nothing more than speculation, and is only one of several possibilities as there is no written record of this, and it is often used to try to connect to Kali to the Hinu God.

Quote:

After that period, the Philippines were under the control of the spaniard (Ferdinand Magellan-whom they eliminated)for 500 years.



First off, Magellan was not Spanish he was Portuguese. Secondly, Magellan was killed in the battle of Mactan where he and 48 other men had just gotten out of there boats, still thigh deep in water, and were overwhelmed by about 1000 natives. The fact that the battle reportedly last over 30 minutes and that over half of the Spanish soldiers retreated back into their boats and lived, doesn’t say much for the native skill or tactics. Also from Antonio Pigafetta’s (who was Italian) account of the battle most of the natives were using spears, and Magellan was hit in the face with a spear along with several other injuries before falling. The Spanish did not rule for 500 years it was for 333 years from 1565 until the Spanish-American War in 1898 in which America then claimed, and gained control of after the Philippine-American War in 1899.

Quote:

The term Kali as a verb means to scrape. The root word Kalis means sword. No where in the Filipino language dating back to Babagin (original spoken language) or today's dialects such as Illongo (Tuhons native language), Tagolog, etc... is there a reference to Arnis or Eskrima. In the Filipino sandscripts you can find Ka and Li but you can't find Arnis and Eskrima. Ka actually means respect, honor, majestic, highness. (I don't remember what Li means-sorry).



Again, nothing but speculation, and just one of many possibilities, no one knows the true origin of the word “Kali.” Arnis and Escrima are part of the known vocabulary of many dialects but Kali has only appeared recently.

Quote:

It is actually ignorant to refer to a Filipino martial art as Arnis or Eskrima. When one does that they are using a spanish term to refer to a Filipino martial art.



OK. I know I said I was not trying to offend anyone but this has to be one of the most (let me use the same word you did) “ignorant” things I have ever heard. Roughly 22 million Filipinos speak Tagalog. About 25% of their vocabulary contains Spanish or are variation of Spanish words. It also contains several words from other ethnic groups. Other Filipino dialects vary but many contain some Spanish. It is not “ignorant” to use words that are part of your vocabulary. I also decided to visit several Pekiti Tirsia websites. There is a lot of good information on these sites that you should read. The funny thing I noticed on these websites was the vocabulary: doble, espada, daga, mano, dose, baston, contra, etc, etc… all Spanish words, and according to you, pretty “ignorant” of them to use this Spanish terminology in their Filipino art.

Here is something to think about that can’t be proven and is nothing more than speculation on my part: The Spanish ruled the Philippines for 330+ years (the USA has only been a country for 230), and in that time never required the natives to learn their language (that is a documented fact). Now in this 300 years very few Spanish women ever made the trip so the hundreds of thousands of Spaniards who went there took natives as wives, had large families, and generally speaking, only the members of these families learned fluent Spanish. So… why would the natives (who supposedly continued to practice their art in secrecy) start using Spanish terminology to describe the techniques such as the ones listed above? There are other such as San Miguel, redondo, and abaniko that are also commonly used.

Quote:

The term Arnis was even very popular in parts of the Philippines during the 50's, 60's and 70's and that is where it gained its popularity (by those who didn't know).



Again, you are saying that millions of Filipinos are ignorant. My wife wants you to let her know the next time you go to the Philippines, and she will have her family at the airport to meet you, and show you some of the finer points of Filipino culture. LOL.

I am only half way through your post and could spend all day pointing out the pure ignorance of it, including statements about one of my instructors Remy Presas. I am biting my tongue so hard it’s bleeding, and I don’t want this to turn into a personal flame against you. My suggestion is that you do more research before you post nonsense. I will skip to the end of your post:

Quote:

Here in the US we a grossly misguided in the Filipino way. Everyone is out to make a dollar. They will rip off other arts and make videos. If you want to learn the truth I suggest you go there and see for yourself like I did.



Well, I hate to tell you this but anyone who is teaching MAs, no matter what style, does it for money. Many people claim many things that can’t be proven. Many people want to be apart of something great or that has its roots in greatness. It is very easy to promote these kinds of thing without documentation. Viewing the Pekiti Tirsia Kali websites it appears to be a very beautiful MA… like all the other FMAs including Arnis and Eskrima.
_________________________
You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.

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#281400 - 04/24/07 04:41 AM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: KJ63]
mdub2000 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1
wow interesting post guys....and kj63 i do have to lean more towards your argument because, i'm Filipino and the name itself is Spanish...remember King Philip....therefore the name Philippines....so as much as we want to be "pure" its hard because historically just living on those islands which are now called the Philippines, which historically were constantly involved with trade were also constantly exposed to so many other cultures since the islands were in such a strategic place and had tons of natural resources. In my studies of pre-hispanic Philippines with UP professors when the islands werent even called the Philippines(i'm not going to go there thats a whole other story) generally the three greatest foriegn cultural influences on the people were Arabic, Indian, and Chinese...so allready we can see that the people were constantly absorbing different influences and makeing it there own creating and evolving their own culture. Ok then there was the Spanish and the Americans but thats more comon history. Anyways i just wanted to add these other aspects because in my youth and search to get deeper with my roots i wanted to learn more about what was "pure" in FMA but after sometime learning diferent arts fma and non-fma i found that what was more important is how you use what you learn and how good you can refine it for what ever your use is. besides if we could trace back to hundreds of years even before the spanish .....the fightin arts which would be called fma were created by people who were not only creating their own techniques but hell if i was around at that time when death by sword and blade was almost allways around the corner i would be learning any technique i could learn to survive regardless of who i was getting it from, spanish, arab, chinese, malay, indo, indian, hell anything to survive....and those survivors who not only had the best techniques and could use them passed them down from generation to generation contantly evolving and adding as well as taking away..until they came to us today..so its hard to say what "pure" is even as pridefull as i am of my own culture. Now adays when people ask me about Filipino Culture i allways add that Filipino culture is one that evolves, adapts, survives yet thrives.

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#281401 - 04/24/07 12:40 PM Re: Is Pekiti-Tirsia Kali and Arnis the same? [Re: mdub2000]
KJ63 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 128
Loc: Midwestern U.S.
Good stuff mdub2000!
Quote:

Filipino culture is one that evolves, adapts, survives yet thrives.



Excellent statement! One we could all learn from.
_________________________
You must not fight too often with one enemy, or you will teach him all your art of war.

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