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#281101 - 08/25/06 09:11 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Well Matt after teaching youth for 30 years both are really disgusting answers.

I've seen far better fighting in the local Boys and Girls Club wrestling program, or the local judo program than in that MMA competition. Of course at least we don't have to worry that they could ever hurt anyone with those punches, thank god their instructor doens't know how to really teach someone to hit when they're on the ground.

As for the TKD, well anyone who wants their kids to learn an art that teaches them to keep thier arms hanging and not learn how to block really should be put up for child abuse.

I don't care whether adults choose to learn not to block, but there could be a strong case of child abuse (both for the parents and the instructors) for allowing young people to get hurt because of dumb rules and training.

But I guess people don't care if children get hurt. TKD outnumbers most of us.

The issue isn't children shouldn't learn how to fight. It's just they should learn how to fight with focus, technique, control and intelligent respones.

BTW, I found it much safer for youth sparring when there was no safety gear. The safety gear has caused more injuries than bare hand sparring ever did. But my surgeon made the point, the risk of infectious injury was more important to end than keeping the strongest technique.

It's a far more difficult balancing act to teach today.
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#281102 - 09/19/06 12:32 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: MattJ]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Found this on BudoSeek, about a young MMA/BJJ "phenom":
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#281103 - 09/19/06 06:57 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: Dereck]
migo Offline

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Equipment is overrated, headgear doesn't really help beyond preventing cuts, but there's no less risk of concussions.

It's fine what they're doing, people don't give kids enough credit. Occasionally injuries happen, but they'd be no worse than what can happen playing on monkey bars or flying of a swing on the playground, and nobody says anything about that. As for kids scrapping with each other if they go to school together, do you worry about that if they're doing Karate or Judo? It's no different, doing MMA/Pankration doesn't make you more aggressive or violent.

#281104 - 09/19/06 09:49 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: MattJ]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10416
Loc: Great White North
Matt, at the grappling tournament I attended back in June they had the kids up first and I was amazed at how well their basics were. They used good technique and like a lot of kids, they pick up on things fast. What I was especially impressed with was the girls as they fought the boys in their weight class and wow were they good. It made me envious that they did not have stuff like this when I was a kid.

I think with the right frame of mind and good teachers I think martial arts and competing is good for kids. Bare in mind the competing should be controlled and the kids should have good training with technique, not just an all out brawl. That is the wrong mentality and where things go wrong.

#281105 - 10/14/06 08:43 AM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: Dereck]
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I've not seen the videos. It's my opinion that kids should be allowed to compete but perhaps that the rules should be altered in terms of what is allowed. More safety equipment, no closed fist punching (just examples).

Honestly, kids could probably get hurt worse playing Pop Warner football. It all comes down to supervision and an appropriate rules structure.


#281106 - 10/16/06 12:10 AM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: JKogas]
migo Offline

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Generally twisting leg locks are banned for kids (sometimes all leg locks). That's good because they are easy to do damage with really quickly, and stubborn people will get hurt.

#281107 - 10/16/06 12:19 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: migo]
tkd_high_green Offline

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
In the tournament cycle I attend, there are child saftey rules for anyone under 14 for olympic sparing. Knockouts by kicking to the face are not allowed. In addition, if you've been knocked out because of an impact to the head, you aren't allowed to compete again for a month.

In the 15 or so tournaments I've attended over the past three years, the worst injuries i've seen included a blown out knee from a bad landing during a patterns competition, a couple of broken noses, and at the last tournament, one girl went out of the ring and managed to impale her foot.

Of course, a responsible school, instructor, and parents look out for their students. We stopped attending certain circuts because of the lack of concern over the welfare of students and the danger that imposed.

I think we also need to remember that these kids are fighting other kids, with the same strength they have, and most would have a hard time in being strong enough to really do a lot of damage.

My instructor recently purchased a device for measuring your kicks and punches. This device, Herman, measures the g forces registered to the sensor on the back of whatever target you attach it to. We had to adjust the sensor down so the kids could even register.

For a palm heel to the face, (on BOB), adults were registering a score of 50 to 60, while the kids were regestering scores between 15 and 25. Based on the documentation, the score is twice the g-forces registered.


#281108 - 10/16/06 12:34 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: tkd_high_green]
Spade Offline

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
Whats with all the "I don't think kids are mature enough to do this type of thing"

If a kid knows how to find the knife drawer, or daddys gun next to the bed, nothing is stopping them from harming someone.

this could at least teach good sportsman ship in the end.

Only real problem I see is that they arn't getting that much "Technique" trainning.
"always paddle your own canoe." - Cord

#281109 - 10/16/06 03:04 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: Spade]
CA_Isshinryu Offline

Registered: 08/12/05
Posts: 98
Loc: California
Exactly what Victor said. I was disgusted by that TKD clip because the hit wouldn't have been much at all if the kid had his hands up.

#281110 - 10/16/06 03:23 PM Re: Youth MMA competition [Re: CA_Isshinryu]
AndrewGreen Offline

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 170
Watch what they are doing in those videos, or rather what they are not.

There are no strikes to the head, the refs are right in there. They are padded, so how exactly is this any more dangerous then other rule sets which allow strikes to the head, are often done on hardwood floors or worse and restrict takedowns, clinching and other things which pretty much eliminates kicks to the head.

I've seen far too many kids take a spin kick to the head, or slam there head into a hardwood floor to think of what those kids are doing as any more dangerous.

Is there technique great? No, they are kids. Is there wrestling as good as wrestlers? No, they are not wrestlers. Is there boxing as good as boxers? No, they are not boxers. These kids are learning a lot more "things" and to make comparissons based on certain skill sets compared to systems that focus entirely on those skills is pointless.

TKD schools typically have much better kicking and flexibility then Karate schools, therefore the Karate schools are doing something wrong right?

I personally think the kids are too young too be fighting, I'd rather see them competing only with grappling at that age. But not because it's more dangerous then TKD or karate, because I don't think young kids should be hitting at all in competition, regardless of the rule set.

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