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#281067 - 01/26/07 03:57 AM Re: not impressed [Re: Stormdragon]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Both videos looked like pretty standard, if not above average KM training/demo. Everything will fall apart if resistance is added to it and it will just look like brawling.

I think this is the case even with high level KM people. SD training can only be effective and safe with role play. The more the role player resists, the more of an opponent he becomes and the worse the technique is going to look.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#281068 - 01/28/07 05:17 PM Re: not impressed [Re: Fletch1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
You of all people should know that you have to break away form role playing, at least as the major part of your training, at a reasonable time after you start training or you never learn to actually apply your techniques for real. Many techniques will work the same and will look the same as in role playing when you get good enough, and many dont, but thats how oyu learn to improvise and get really good. It's what we call BS otherwise.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#281069 - 02/01/07 11:33 AM Re: not impressed [Re: Stormdragon]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
These videos reminded me exactly why I stopped going to a krav school - flashy kicks, sub-par boxing skills and unbalanced 'freak out' attacks do not a good fighter make.

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#281070 - 02/01/07 11:34 PM Re: not impressed [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 139
Please allow me to express my opinion on this matter. Here's my philosophy: If you want to be a fighter, train in MMA. If you want to learn self-defense (different from fighting), take self-defense classes. Many martial arts schools are either enjoying a renaissance or struggling to adapt. It's becoming more commonplace for a school to offer a multiude of programs, a one-stop shop for all your martial arts needs. Obviously, they want to attract the MMA fans. Certainly, many krav schools across the country subscribe to this pathway. As an example, there are two krav schools in my area who basically teach something like MMA, mixing in self-defense. My feeling is, again, I see fighting and self-defense as two different, opposing entities.

On the street, if someone tries to harm you, you defend yourself. Once you have that window of opportunity to escape and call for help, take it. If you don't, then it's no longer self-defense; it's fighting, because you could've ended the confrontation, yet you chose to continue. So, I look at fighting as voluntary. If you had to kill the guy to survive, that's self-defense. But if you killed the guy, even though you had a chance to escape with your life, that's fighting.

Concerning self-defense, I'm of the opinion you don't need to spend years learning krav or systema or whatever. Kapap is great. It's a short-term program designed for self-defense. You don't need to spend years working towards a BB for knife and gun defenses. I drilled knife and gun defenses years ago. We didn't work on them every week or anything. Yet I still remember them and could repeat them at a given moment. It could be I have a good memory, who knows. But my point is self-defense is not rocket science. Please don't misunderstood; I'm not condemning Krav. I'm just saying you can learn good self-defense in a relatively short period of time.

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#281071 - 02/08/07 02:51 PM Re: not impressed [Re: SEAL]
demor Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/08/07
Posts: 1
Quote:

Please allow me to express my opinion on this matter. Here's my philosophy: If you want to be a fighter, train in MMA. If you want to learn self-defense (different from fighting), take self-defense classes. Many martial arts schools are either enjoying a renaissance or struggling to adapt. It's becoming more commonplace for a school to offer a multiude of programs, a one-stop shop for all your martial arts needs. Obviously, they want to attract the MMA fans. Certainly, many krav schools across the country subscribe to this pathway. As an example, there are two krav schools in my area who basically teach something like MMA, mixing in self-defense. My feeling is, again, I see fighting and self-defense as two different, opposing entities.

On the street, if someone tries to harm you, you defend yourself. Once you have that window of opportunity to escape and call for help, take it. If you don't, then it's no longer self-defense; it's fighting, because you could've ended the confrontation, yet you chose to continue. So, I look at fighting as voluntary. If you had to kill the guy to survive, that's self-defense. But if you killed the guy, even though you had a chance to escape with your life, that's fighting. ---





Yeah I pretty much agree


the way i think it is:
Ring fight and self defence are two different things,
but a real fighting and self defence are the same thing.

when you have good ability to fight, you have good ability to defend yourself.


I agree that ofcourse the best way to defend yourself is to avoid a fight in the first place,and also to leave the fight when it's possible. But many times it's not possible to avoid the fight and it's not possible to leave before you have beaten down the opponent. There are cases where you can't back up, and in that moment your self-defence is to fight. And then you should use any technique that helps you to beat the heck out of the opponent in that situtaion. ANY technique, because now we are NOT talking about combat sports, which have rules and regulations (even MMA matches has rules). We are talking about real fight,and about how to defend yourself. After you have beaten the opponent and cleared the sitution then it's sensible to leave the scene before maybe other attackers come. Sometimes the other guy doesn't have to lay in the ground to call it your win. sometimes you just injure him slightly so that you are able to leave.

I read here some talk about the difference between "winning a fight" and "surviving a fight". I understand it, but to me there's not much difference... To be able to survive the fight, you better be able to be the better fighter. You better be able to "win". If you survive a fight in some otherway, then i would call it partly "luck" instead of
good self-defence. There is a good point that you don't always have to have better all in all fighting skills,
to survive a fight, but i think that the more you are able to train all your fighting skills, then
more likely it's the other guy (attacker) who is going to suffer instead of you.

And to be able to beat the opponent you have to be prepared by training every aspect of fighting. Weather you train krav maga or mma or any martial art. Just don't let styles or anything restrict you and your develpement. Use the techniques that are most efficient to you. Be in good physical shape and train and test the tecniques with alive situations by sparring. Certain Mr. Lee compared practising fight without opponent with swiming on a dry land.

I think we have pretty much same thought, I just put it in other words

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#281072 - 03/30/07 10:34 AM Re: not impressed [Re: Stormdragon]
sproutopop Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 11
I spent over 4 years training in Krav Maga. Those videos didn't represent any kind of normal training session.

The intensity we practiced with was much higher. Also our attackers were encouraged to constantly vary their attacks to force the defender to be creative and also remind them that the flashy stuff is often the least useful.

The most important element, that was constant even at the lower levels, were the drills. Every one of them was designed to teach students that quitting was not an option.

That mind-set was probably more valuable than any single technique.

I obviously can't speak for all schools, but it seemed that our instructors tried to keep fairly faithful to the military origins of Krav Maga. The "don't quit or someone will kill you" mentality is fairly consistent with that.

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#281073 - 03/30/07 10:59 AM Re: not impressed [Re: Stormdragon]
Dudley32 Offline
master of disaster

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 482
Loc: Indiana
This one is at least more realistic. Still some sloppy stuff, but it has some good ideas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0i7N6Y7OYwI&mode=related&search=

Matt
_________________________
Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect Practice makes perfect.

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#281074 - 03/31/07 12:00 PM Re: not impressed [Re: Stormdragon]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Quote:

You of all people should know that you have to break away form role playing, at least as the major part of your training, at a reasonable time after you start training or you never learn to actually apply your techniques for real. Many techniques will work the same and will look the same as in role playing when you get good enough, and many dont, but thats how oyu learn to improvise and get really good. It's what we call BS otherwise.




That would be incorrect. Role play is something you do to bring together skillsets already developed with skill training. If you can't make your skills in reality resemble what they look like in training, then either more practice time is needed or the techniques themselves need to be reconsidered.
_________________________
www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#281075 - 04/13/07 11:51 PM Re: not impressed [Re: Fletch1]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Tell that to JK.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#281076 - 04/14/07 09:55 PM Re: not impressed [Re: Dudley32]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

This one is at least more realistic. Still some sloppy stuff, but it has some good ideas.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0i7N6Y7OYwI&mode=related&search=

Matt




What those guys are doing looks great in these drills, but I wonder how well they would hold up in a situation where gassing out would spell their death?

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