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#280487 - 05/30/07 06:12 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: Hagakure]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

Im loving this, you should redirect yourselves to my favorites site http://www.bullshido.net/
You would have a ball there



Yeah, good call.

Tell you what... why don't you go ahead over to your favorite site, and just sit tight and wait for us... we'll all be there shortly, I promise.


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#280488 - 05/31/07 12:12 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I started reading this thread recently... wanted to see what the big fuss is all about ...8000 views, 80 replies...good job, every one! if we were in a dojo with all this going on, you wouldn't be able to see out the windows...anyway,.. I truly do not wish anyone to experience a rise in blood pressure when reading my posts, I'm trying to change...nor do I want to increase my arterial pressure,... I only wanted to contribute this:

I was a 3d kyu a few yrs back ( still not shodan), and my now ex- wife used to drag me to her Korean church. Anyone like bagels and kimchi in the morning? i digress... i noticed all the kids were getting real bored during their sunday school, so I offered to teach a few aikido classes, with my sensei's permission. anyway, they already had TKD classes there,espec being korean , and they did get nationalistic.... and i could see they were gettg real bored with it.... i mean ,ok i think someone in this thread said aikidoka do kata...but at least they're with an uke who can react to a mistake... in tkd it's basically solo kata and hittin bags..oh look, the bag moved wrong ..... so these kids were rolling their eyes, in boredom,and all that, as kids are wont to do .i'm not faulting tkd.it was prob the teacher's fault just as much....so i had the opportunity to teach class once,so i taught ikkyo, and sankyo, as well as sankyo nage....you should have seen these kids light up ! they had never rolled out b4, never countered a wrist grab with ikkyo, they could feel the power, and they learned how to control someone else,i showed a nikyo finish too.i mean , you dont get that by punching the air, or a bag only goes so far .. it was like a light turned on in their minds..they had big smiles,...kidding with each other, and after class they were kiddingly doing sankyo and little sankyo nages on each other,playing, as kids should.. and laughing, having a real ball...the kids knew me by name now, regarded me well, and they came and asked me to teach some more.

I ask you, could these kids have interacted with each other, and bonded like they did if they were punching and kicking? I think not...bloody noses are not amicable expressions. these kids were living proof that aikido is cool, it's great , it turns on a light for everyone..

these kids, to me,with their actions, voted big time for aikido over their current MA. we could argue on these forums till the cows come home, about which is tougher, which works best in a barfight, ..but this is a story about getting disaffected kids to connect.

So I realized , i wasnt teaching self defense, or how to be tough against a bigger person, I was showing them how to connect with each other... it was probably one of the most gratifying experiences i have had in aikido.... that's when i realized, aikido , while it is effective on the street ( and it was, for me ), is really more to connect with other people, I dont want an MA in which the mindset becomes kill, kill, kill, b4 u are killed....then what happens?

please, i only wanted to contribute this story, it is not a knock on anyone.. i had rememberedit when i was reading all these replies about which is better..etc...


thanks for listening, all.

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#280489 - 05/31/07 06:31 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote:

Im loving this, you should redirect yourselves to my favorites site http://www.bullshido.net/
You would have a ball there



Yeah, good call.

Tell you what... why don't you go ahead over to your favorite site, and just sit tight and wait for us... we'll all be there shortly, I promise.






ROFL
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#280490 - 05/31/07 10:47 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ooooommmmmmm.... I'm transcending to the other site now....

OOPs, didn't work... maybe later...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280491 - 06/01/07 09:22 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

Quote:

3. kicks are not a very common street attack




Hmmm... I've seen them used in several street and bar fights. Certainly frequently enough for me to want to know some basic defenses against them.

Quote:

4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?




Actually, yes. Provided that the hakama is not too long, it's really not difficult. The leg of the hakama will usually come up over your foot, toward your ankle.




I bartended for nine years. In that time, I witnessed and/or broke-up about 50 fights and never saw one person use a kick. I have seen kicks used in fight clips from reality tv shows (RealTV), so I know they are occasionally used. We also practice kick defense (in Aikido and Karatedo) quite a bit--it was a big part of my Aikido nidan test. I was just trying to give reasons why some schools do not practice them very often.
As for the hakama comment--that was a joke (thank you, I'll be here all week).
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#280492 - 06/01/07 11:11 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Hi James,

I guess we've just seen a different sample of street / bar fights. No problem.

The kicks I have seen in those situations have been pretty wild - like many of the punches. Most of them seem to have been aimed at the crotch. You would know from your experience that these fights are not pretty or choreographed.

As for kicking in the hakama... I didn't realize you were joking... I was actually answering seriously. I train in an old style of Hapkido, and we have a sword art that is heavily based on MJER that we also do. Sometimes after sword class I'm too lazy to change into the traditional uniform, and just leave the hakama on for Hapkido. Kicks really aren't hard when you're wearing it. But, all of our styel's kicks are low, so that probably makes a difference.

Thanks for your reply.

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#280493 - 06/02/07 03:47 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
So, here's a little chain of thought I had today... people (not necessarily here) would say that Aikido could beat MMA in a street fight since Aikido trains more toward street situations than competition. Personally, I think this is true because the inverse is definitely true. (Edit: later I talk about why this really doesn't matter)

If you were to take an Aikidoka, and put them in a UFC fight, I'm pretty sure they'd lose - probably badly. UFC rules prohibit small joint locks which would remove - well, a whole heck load depending on how the rules were inforced - of the Aikidoka's arsenal. Not to mention that the MMA opponent has trained specifically to have an advantage under the rules, and how the conditioning differs, I don't see that there would be that big of a question. I'm sure the fight would be interesting, but the MMA would be stupid to not take the Aikidoka to the ground so the ending would still be pretty much guaranteed.

But in the same vein, this works against the MMA fighter on the street. A small joint lock would probably surprise the heck out of him. The rondori training would let the Aikidoka take more advantage of the area than the guy trained to focus on an opponent exclusively in a clutter free ring. This would let the Aikidoka to keep the fight at their best range - and even use them as weapons. This would sway this fight toward the Aikidoka.

Of course in the real world, training isn't typically of a single art. A lot of Aikidoka's also take multiple arts, as by definition do MMA's. I'm sure that a number of MMA's also take arts that aren't competition focused, and I know I've met Aikidoka's with TKD, BJJ, Judo, or karate black belts. And it doesn't even start to discuss the age or physical condition of the opponents.

If you have two BJJ trained fighters in a UFC match, does the winner prove that BJJ is awesome, or does the loser prove that BJJ sucks? Of course it shows that X person is better than Y person, and that's about it. I suppose we could ask if Ken Shamrock could beat up O Sensei but then we'd get into what age - O Sensei would have beaten Ken when they were both alive because Ken Shamrock was 3 - if O Sensei were still alive Ken would win because O Sensei would be over 100 - if they were both old O Sensei would win because Shamrock's knees would be shot - etc.

Then we find out that we're trying to determine who would in in a fight between The Hulk and The Thing and that one's been done to death (probably by me )

If you want to know if [you] can win against SBudda, I'll tell you the answer now. It depends on who wins when I don't show up - cause if I did you'd whoop me! But the real question is can Aikido beat that butthead in the bar who won't stop hitting on your wife's friends that you are escorting? Can BJJ beat that guy who jumps you in the bathroom for your wallet? Can Kali beat that guy who broke into your house for long enough to get your shotgun?

OF course this is also on the individual level. The Kali I know could be written in two sentences, one if I knew the right name for the moves, so it probably wouldn't help. Same as if I had a black belt in Kali from a crappy school, or even if the intruder also knew Kali or already had my shotgun

Heck, I started Aikido because my brother is a mean drunk and I wanted to be able to beat him down if need be without breaking something. Seriously, he's not the kind of guy you want to drink with... and I've already achieved my goal. I'm not a master, and I've not had to be there when he's doing something stupid, but now I know something to do when before I knew nothing other than good ole Southern bar fighting (beer bottle).

I found that I really enjoy it, and everyday I get better. For each of us, we got into the martial arts for weird reasons like I described (or maybe not ). But we stay with it because we like it. It's the advice you give anyone starting out - try a class, stay if you enjoy it. Sure, there are jerks out there who try to call an exhibition style a combat art, or what have you, but I'm not going to look down on someone who takes an exhibition art because 1) he likes it, and 2) it does look really cool.

So those are my thoughts why I've decided that Aikido v. Etc is pointless. Now, Aikido v. Piao de Mao or Aikido v. a spinning backfist would be a great discussion. Mainly because I don't know the answer and I've love to hear it!

Although... it'd be fun to motion capture some of the grandmasters of various arts and put them in a video game. Something like Virtua Fighter but an even closer simulation. Hummmm, if I beat you at the game while playing as a BJJ grandmaster does this mean Aikido is better? Ohhh, then 5 years later we would have Marvel V. Grandmasters and finally see if O Sensei could beat The Hulk. It'll probably depend on who has the better fireball...
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280494 - 06/04/07 02:43 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

If you have two BJJ trained fighters in a UFC match, does the winner prove that BJJ is awesome, or does the loser prove that BJJ sucks? Of course it shows that X person is better than Y person, and that's about it.




Very good observation.

Quote:

Then we find out that we're trying to determine who would in in a fight between The Hulk and The Thing




Who cares, as long as Jessica Alba is in the movie version.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#280495 - 06/04/07 02:57 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
Thanks a lot Bodhi, now I'm gonna be daydreaming about being uke for Jessica Alba all day... the last thing I needed was to develop a fetish for irimi...

Boy, that was a really bad joke.

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#280496 - 06/05/07 03:00 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
dalen7 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 1
I find it interesting that everyone is seeking the ultimate martial art.
Which will beat the other.

Bruce Lee found the answer to this and demonstrated it with J.K.D.
That simply one art will not do it - nor is it a combination of any particular arts.
Its about knowing yourself, your body, and whats right for you. (Thats when you master an art...you dont master the art, but rather understand how to adapt the art to you - i.e. break the rules)

I have read a couple of comments about kicking not being used in real fight situations. AGain, this is all conditioning. The 'big' man in the west has grown up thinking that 'biting' (mike tyson) scratching (grizzly bear) and kicking are 'sissy' - and it shows when they are in a situation...they are predictable and act a certain way. (even if not trained in the art)

But in a true defense situation, here is an example.
I was attacked, someone actually came up to me and used a judo/aikido type grab on me - I went with the flow to avoid pain, they ended up at a later point (after me having had the advantage of having them in a head-lock...I did not want to hurt the person, or I could have bashed face in) but they threw me on the ground. Well this person about 3 times bigger than me started to come down toward me, and with my doc martins I kicked their nose, got up and punched their face quickly in the nose...at which the fight stopped.

again, the fight was initiated by them, and throughout the fight I had tried not to use any 'hard' technique. But at the end to get rid of them and ensure that they caused no more harm, I did what instinctively came to me.

So, in a fight...(and had this been a matter of life and death, different techniques would have been used, etc) you do what you can, and mix whats appropriate at the moment. That is kind of the heart of aikido (i have only had 3 lessons so far, 4th today.) The heart is to adapt to the moment.

So, what art beats what? At the end, it depends on the situation and the people fighting.

Peace

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