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#280447 - 08/26/06 03:39 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
jonnyboxcutter Offline

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
You have created an unwinable argument. You say what you want then when you get a reply that is based in logic you say “well I have never seen it” or “I think that…”. What I would suggest you do is ask nicely and maybe just maybe Wristtwister will give you personal demo where in you can go as fast and hard as you want. Then when it is all over with you can come back and regale us with your stories of domination; other than that your just spouting nonsense.

-- -JBC-

#280448 - 08/26/06 04:31 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Robaikido Offline

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
Instead of calling it nonsense, which part do you disagree with and why?

#280449 - 08/26/06 05:19 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
jonnyboxcutter Offline

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320

Instead of calling it nonsense, which part do you disagree with and why?

What do I disagree with? Your entire argument
Why? You want some one to disprove your “opinions” on a forum, where as you need to see it or experience it first hand.

This is an unwinable argument.

In my personal opinion you are the personification of – A little information goes a long way.

-- -JBC-

#280450 - 08/26/06 06:12 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
ANDY44 Offline

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
You seem to keep coming back to the training in a live envirement situation. You seem to be using people you know to gauge the effectiveness of something. I know aikido people who I dont think are the best of fighters just as I know UFC, boxers , and even so called street fighters who I know are for some reason are not the best of fighters.
Because they havent trained long enough or might never be because of their mind set.

I think the only way you are going to change your mind is to seek out a good aikido guy and train with them or dont train aikido at all and feel good thinking you have won your argument.
Dont seek out some one who is trying to learn the art and then be little the art as having no use.

Or are you just trying to win every argument?

The reason I say you are young and in expereinced is because I dont think you have seen why you mighy need what aikido offers.There is nothing wrong in being like that,(others might dis agree but i listen to them types all the time) except a person like that can become irritating, just keep an open mind.

Any how its your choice. You aked me a question I gave you the answer although I would rather you posted a vidio of a street fighter and asked me if I think i could beat that guy if i were attacked and how would I do it as opposed to setting off one martial art against another in a hyper thetical situation.

Just an after thought. People like wrist twister know what they are doing but you seem to just talk over him?

Cant see your logic

Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 09:06 PM)

#280451 - 08/26/06 07:11 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city

Instead of calling it nonsense, which part do you disagree with and why?

I’ll admit, Robaikido, that there’s been some chest-thumping along the way, but what people with far more experience than you have tried to point out is that you're bringing some defective preconceptions to the discussion. Sadly, you keep holding to these. It's not about whether you're "ufc/k1 mad," as you put it. As long you continue to insist what you think you know about martial arts and fighting capability, you’re not going to be able to hear what’s being said to you, and folks are going to get frustrated and call you on it.

Consider, for example, that you seem to be bringing a duelist’s mentality to your hypothetical scenarios. As a woman, at least, I find that almost laughable in relation to the real conditions that someone like me needs to worry about in terms of self-defense. Tell ya what! I’m not terribly anxious about meeting up with someone like Matt Hughes or Chuck Liddell in a back alley to see who’s smokin’ the bigger cigar! I’m more concerned, in my neighborhood, about having to deal with someone wielding a gun or knife (whether to rob or rape), or with a bunch of gangbangers who might decide to have a little “fun” at my expense. Indeed, one of the first rules of street-wise common sense is NEVER to assume that you’re facing only a single attacker or that he/she isn’t packing!

In situations like that, the ground-fighting skills I learned in judo likely wouldn’t provide an effective first-line defense, would they? In truth, I’m more likely to call on the footwork and principles of spacing that I learned from my aikido training to escape (staying alive being the name of the game). Now, don’t get me wrong! I’m not saying that such newaza skills as I have wouldn’t come in handy if, despite my best efforts, I found myself taken down. It’s just that the ground would be the last place I’d want to go—much less remain—especially against more than one attacker. Similar considerations apply to stand-up boxing technique, which is designed for ring fighting one-on-one—where the window of attention is pretty much confined to what is in front of you. I can readily imagine how a good straight lead or cross could prove useful as atemi, but striking technique is only useful to the extent that it helps you manage the space around you 360 degrees. Believe it nor not, that’s one of aikido’s secrets hidden in plain view! Though an instructor might point it out, the full reality reveals itself only over time as the fruit of hard training.

I’m not writing just off the top of my head here. I’ve done quite a bit of what you call “live” training in my time, and I’ve taken my lumps to learn something about reality here. Whether you’re willing to admit it or not, my friend, you ARE aikido bashing, basing your comments on your own limited unsatisfying experience. There’s a lot more to aikido than “three main attacks” and a few wristlocks—too bad that you apparently haven’t seen it! Still, if you’ve since found personal satisfaction in ju-jitsu and boxing, more power to you. There’s no one here who would want to hold you back. But if you wish to process your experience with aikido on a forum such as this, then be prepared to listen as you read what other people have to say. Sometimes the best response to a question is one that holds the question itself up to critique.

If you reread this thread carefully, I think you’ll find that a number of people have actually done that for you. Take a look, Grasshopper! You just might find yourself learning more than you originally bargained for—and coming out wiser (and a better martial artist) for it!

Edited by kunin (08/26/06 07:16 PM)
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

#280452 - 08/26/06 08:25 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: kunin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
very scholarly post, and right on target...

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#280453 - 08/26/06 08:58 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
very scholarly post, and right on target

Totaly agree

Hi There Wrist twister.

I know you say that technique must be taught in person so to speak but I think with your knowledge you should write a book? Then people like myself can study it. With diagrams?

Just a thought.

Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 09:07 PM)

#280454 - 08/27/06 04:32 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Am I correct in assuming that what you're really trying to say is (1) aikido (as you know it) does not train in a 'live' manner and (2) if one does not train 'alive' or 'test' one's skill against other stylists how do you know it 'works'?

This question has been asked and answered before.... several times.

You know, in the old days, people would visit the local school and euphemistically "pull down the school banner". It was th3 r34l test of one's martial prowess. Defeat meant significant loss of face, and victory a potential source of prospective students.

Sokaku Takeda apparently did just that. Many people came to challenge Ueshiba Snr. and I believe all of them stayed on as disciples.

The problem is, your argument is flawed. As MattJ has pointed out, it's not whether the art/system/style is ineffective, whether its training paradigm is in a 'live' format or not. The issue is whether or not the practitioner can apply [insert whatever floats your boat] art in an 'alive' format.

Even UFC/K1 competitors have off-days... does that mean that [bjj, blah blah woteva etc.] s.u.c.k.s?

#280455 - 08/27/06 10:36 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
respectfully, there are hundreds of books out there that have correct information in them. It isn't a matter of "no information", it's a matter of knowing how to understand the information and how to actually feel the movement when it's correct.

True, I could parrot another book on jujutsu and aikido and probably make some money off it, but martial arts have never been about money to me. It's about the technique and having it in my repetoire and being able to pass it on to someone else.

The only useful thing I've found in books have been kata diagrams for karate that showed the correct embusen, points of kiai, etc. and a few of the aikido books that showed correct exercises. It's not an "information" problem, it's a "learning" problem... and as my buddy Eyrie has said, it's all "hidden in plain sight".

I read and study martial arts at least as many hours out of the dojo as I do in practice, and have for years. That's how I know what the latest panacea is for teaching and how somebody's trying to "spin" the information to look like they discovered it. I have no qualms about calling their hand on it...

First, unless your body works a different way from everybody else in the world, the body mechanics of ANY art are going to be the same. Your arms and legs move from the same points, your hips and backbone work the same way, and your parts are all located in the same places... so what makes one art different from the other?

To answer that question, I teach students that "karate is a hitting art", "Judo is a grappling and throwing art, as is jujutsu", Aikido is a blending art based on swordsmanship and jujutsu. From that, you should understand that some arts are force delivery, others use body mechanics to manipulate the body, and others use blending techniques to "accompany" the attacker's body in creating a technique.

Now, the rest of my information is learned in a dojo setting and with any kind of attack you want to bring with you... and some of my approaches to "self defense" might fool you... Like our buddy Rob, there are a lot of preconceptions out there, and it's a real surprise when they suddenly are attacked back with hitting techniques in aikido or judo or jujutsu... first reactions... "Oh, but that's not (insert art of your choice)"...

O.K.... so sue me for keeping you alive but not using your preconceived idea of what (art of choice) is...

Remember, only sports have rules and referees... and everything else is up for grabs... so when you start comparing things with "everything else" as Rob does, it's clear that he has no concept of what actually goes on in the real world. I've trained with some of the world's best during years when all this "hollywood" $*** was developing into what are "X-treme martial arts " and people were being purposely misled by others who had no knowledge of the finer points of martial training, or any interest in keeping the principles of martial arts. They were only interested in making money... so they sold out the arts for the bucks, and we have the situation now where everyone's arguing over which flea owns the dog, rather than focusing on good training and good technique.

Andy, I guess I'm addressing Rob's arguments and your question at the same time, but with that situation in place, do you really think another book of instructions is going to make any significant difference? The information's out there... it's a matter of training it and understanding in your body how it works and how it's applied.

I was once introduced as "a walking encyclopedia of martial arts" at the Okinawan Karate seminar, and while I would disagree, I think that it's what we need to strive to become... but it's more than that... it's "information in action"... which is the true measure of "mastery".

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#280456 - 08/27/06 12:33 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by wristtwister -


it's "information in action"...

I think that is the best description of a martial arts teacher I have ever read.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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