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#280407 - 08/19/06 11:55 AM Aikido vs etc
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I realise that aikido is considered a non competitive art, but i was wondering, of all the aikido practioners out there, there must be some who took up the art for self defense purposes, and probably some who took it up to be able to fight like Steven Seagal. Now, bearing in mind the arguments that come up, with different opinions on whether aikido is effectice as a self defense art, or would it be able to hold its own agaisnt other arts, i cant understand how there hasnt been an aikidoka who has wanted to challenge a practioner from another art. if he beleive his art is effective, and doesnt like the bad views it gets, it would make sense for him to stand up for it. i realise that some aikido techniques are banned in the ufc, kotegashi for example is a small joint technique, which isnt allowed, but a challenge match would be agreed that the techniques could be used. you see alot of impressive displays of aikido, but you rarely see any tidy attacks. personally i'd love to see a top aikidoka go agaisnt a top (insert art here) and i'm pretty sure most people would. i know people may say its the art not the artist, but you need an artist to stand up for the art. whether they won or lost, it doesnt really matter, people still have their own views, but i'm sure it would attract alot of interset

what do you think?
_________________________
Rob

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#280408 - 08/19/06 12:06 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I aggree it would be interesting, but isn't competition somewhat antithetical to the very nature of Aikido? That may explain the lack of interest in "stepping up" from the Aiki folk.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#280409 - 08/19/06 01:22 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: MattJ]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
i know what you are saying, but i dont want that 2 be the answer 2 my question, but you cant possibly say that there isnt a high grade aggressive skillful aikidoka out there, who is sick of having his art ridiculed. if i was a high grade i think i would give it a try
_________________________
Rob

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#280410 - 08/19/06 09:56 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ah yes, Grasshopper... there are plenty of Aikidoka that will bury you in the mats... but they aren't going to come out and challenge anyone. Everyone is welcome to Aikido, and the ones with the challenges can get moved to the front of the line by telling the instructors what doesn't work...

GREAT CHALLENGES IN AIKIDO... Show me...

Now... before you make the mistake of telling someone who's actually versatile in Aikido that something doesn't work, please make sure you have your insurance card with you, and good coverage... Hospitals hate charity cases...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280411 - 08/20/06 07:35 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I know people are going to come back with what you just said, we will put you in hospital we wont challenge you because of what we can do 2 you bla bla bla, but that isnt good enough for me, correct me if i'm wrong, but when you use aikido to defend yourself, the whole point of it is to leave your attacker immobilised but unhurt. Surely a good aikidoka is willing to show how aikido can compete with a resisting opponent, because i know i'd love to see it
_________________________
Rob

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#280412 - 08/20/06 02:37 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Umbra_777 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 148
I think that one has to be very carful when comparing two arts because often they have different advantages. For example aikido is desighned to not injure the opponent which makes it much harder (but likwise makes it much more defendable as self defense in court) so a hypothetical challenge would have to take that into account. Aikido focuses on multiple attackers so the fight would have to be a multiperson fight to represent all the extra work that goes into training to defeat multiple people. Etc. It's not as simple as saying if the martial art is less effective, each person has to ask themselfs "Is this (possible) loss of effectivness worth it to gain the unique benefits of Aikido (nonviolence, multiple attackers, etc.)"

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#280413 - 08/20/06 02:42 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Well Slick, you can't have it both ways... you don't get the "gentle treatment" if you're coming in with the "this stuff won't work" attitude about it. What pops out in your conversation is that you want to challenge the art, but if somebody plants you with force, you want "better treatment"...

I have total control of my techniques all the way from start to finish, and I can put you on the floor gently or leaving a hole in the mats. When you challenge the art, you get the "deep" planting treatment... In Aikido, we teach you to adjust attitudes by adjusting altitudes... so when you open that mouth about "nobody ever proving Aikido has anything"... don't complain when they leave your face stuck to the floor...

...And before you start with the "peace", love and harmony routine... there's nothing in the philosophy of Aikido that is inconsistent with "hard" techniques... You just need somebody to give you some better "understanding"...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280414 - 08/20/06 05:37 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
the thing is, aikido is meant to be used as an art where you dont hurt your attacker, and that means ATTACKER, not some guy your training with that is giving you rubbish attacks to work with, which are known to the defender before hand which means they are easy to defend. If you are going to use aikido to defend yourself, the attack is going to come out of the blue, your not going to know what side its coming from, whether its a headbut, punch, kick elbow weapon etc. You can give me your silly responses about how you can put me into the ground bla bla bla, I'll just laugh them off. Aikido looks great, but it needs something behind it to show its an effective art, and that doesnt mean displays of flashy techniques with telegraphed attacks. The way it looks to me, that aikido has alot of naive people training in it, alot of people taking aikido are there for the self defense purposes, and all I see is people getting the idea that they can defend themselves with this art, but really have no proof that it works on resisting opponents. Dont get me wrong, I liked aikido when I was doing it, but I always had the doubt in the back of my mind, if I am taking up an art, I want to be able to think to myself, that the instructor is a guy I wouldnt want to fight, now, when i was doing aikido, and I went to 3 different clubs, there wasnt 1 person in any club that I thought yea they are pretty tough, not 1, thats why I'd love to see someone using it agaisnt resisting opponents, surely you'd love to see someone from aikido toss a jiu jitsu stylist or thai boxer around, I know I would.
_________________________
Rob

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#280415 - 08/20/06 05:52 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
EvilKi Offline
Member

Registered: 08/01/06
Posts: 47
Loc: Rolling around Colorado
Wrist your response actually made me laugh out loud here, reminds me of the first time I attended an aikido class, and I asked a smaller guy smaller than me and im 5'7 140lbs how effective is it in comparison to live arts such as judo boxing grappling all arts i participate in regularly. We sparred and what started out as a soft rotation turned into a very abrupt and hard wrist lock straight to the mat, from then on all i had was enormous respect for aikido. This is coming from someone who pracitces live sports or whatever rob wishes to call them, trust me aikido has its place, especially with the right individual.
_________________________
Gentleness always overcomes strength. Kyuzo Mifune.

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#280416 - 08/20/06 10:46 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

You can give me your silly responses about how you can put me into the ground bla bla bla, I'll just laugh them off. Aikido looks great, but it needs something behind it to show its an effective art, and that doesnt mean displays of flashy techniques with telegraphed attacks.




It's clear that you've never trained with anybody doing aikido for any length of time or at any depth of study, or you wouldn't be making such stupid statements.

Quote:

The way it looks to me, that aikido has alot of naive people training in it, alot of people taking aikido are there for the self defense purposes, and all I see is people getting the idea that they can defend themselves with this art, but really have no proof that it works on resisting opponents.




What that shows me, is that there's no reason to argue with an idiot... the only person who's naieve here is you...
You're a legend in your own mind...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280417 - 08/21/06 01:11 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
A student unexpectly testing any art in a dojo setting is dumb, challenging it outside the dojo is crazy. What I will say about this topic is this, Aikido in self defense maynot look like movie or dojo Aikido, they have strikes and any person versed in self defense will beat you with whats available. They may end it by breaking your arm or neck but they will hurt you first with whatevers open. It may not look like Segal movies, it may just be a haito to the grion that turns into a throw or a stomp.

What do you mean Aikido immobilize its opponent without hurting??? You are immobilized because your spine is fractured, you are not hurting because you are dead.

Don't believe the rhetoric of whats heard, visit a high level class. All though pretty throws don't happen like that in streets. The times I've used those pretty wrist locks or arms bars, on the street the person that I grabbed after hitting them, didn't float in the air, they drops on his knees and screamed, some pee'd their pants, they'd raggeily, falls on his face, screamed while dancing on his toes, or they would, do the leg flop, while flat on his face, screaming "Arggh my God, you are breaking my f$%%ing arm"!!! Aikido even my weak Aikido HURTS and it ain't pretty. What are you talking about. I'm far from an Aikido expert.

Aikido ain't pretty on the REAL, its vicious, nasty, ugly, bone breaking, joint wrenching stuff!!! Imagine purposely breaking someone arm, knee or neck, feeling it break.
Not much different then Jujitsu sparring wise somethings work just, because they work, sorta like science.

Gentle Art, my a$$!!


Edited by Neko456 (08/21/06 01:29 AM)
_________________________
DBAckerson

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#280418 - 08/21/06 01:37 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
So lets recap…

Board don’t hit back
TKD is for sport only
Kungfu is too flowery

And now
Aikido is Rubbish

I love the smell of ignorance in the morning…

Honestly this sounds like the student that asks questions like “what would you do if I snuck up behind you and hit you in the head with a bat?”

Or never does what they are told in class cuz they want to see if you “know” what you are doing.

Wristtwister, I only wish I had a quality school of Aikido in my area. We have nothing available

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280419 - 08/21/06 07:49 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I see Aikido as the ultimate Art and I believe takes the strongest willed practitioners. I always believe that we should not degrade or be disrespectful to other 'Ryu'(Styles) as we should expect 'Repect' to our arts from other MA's

I did try Aikido, but the hall was too small for the amount of people in and they were mixing DANs with the beginners like me. I was finding some discrepancies in the techniques probably from the fact that it was against what I would do in reality as Karateka. The defence from the strikes where the attacker was already off balance, This wouldn't happen to karateka or the throw from a guiding of a wrist grab where I would just let go and try something else in reality.

Although I have practiced many styles previous and I teach/study Ashihara Karate and study Wado Ryu. These Aikido techniques take years to perfect I believe 8 years to First Dan. It is the pacifists way (no strikes) and I love the techniques and read many books on Aikido. Maybe when I am older and feel I do not need to use a finishing technique I will take up Aikido again.

All Martial Arts are purposeful for everyone has a different WA (harmony) to achieve as in our worklives we have different jobs so therefore we have different Ryu
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#280420 - 08/21/06 10:49 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Dobbersky]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
First off, I trained in aikikai aikido for 2 and a half years, 2 clubs i attended, there was a 3rd but i found it too much training, seeing as I was already training 5-6 times a week. I'm 5'11 and 15 stone, or 96kg to be exact from a power/weight lifting background. Dont get me wrong, as I've said before, I'm not lookin for an argument, but I left aikido for jujutsu for several reasons. The people in the class had no aggression, which meant crap attacks that needed no defence. I was told I had to roll!!!! Fair enough if a technique is done correctly then I am thrown, but to be told I had to roll, when I could have easily stood up on the technique, and that was a 4th dan. The 2 instructors I had were 4th and 5th dans, but from what I saw the way aikido is practised is mostly at fault, I'd love to go to an aikido class where all kinds of attacks are dealt with, not just shomen, which has almost no use! yokumen, yea ok a bit more fun but never realistic, and the tsuki, which to be fair, is not how any1 in the world punches. I asked a member of the class to do an exercise with me, when we had some spare time. He was pretty good, a 1st kyu aikikai, I said 'right, stand in front of me, and I'll attack you, I said that it could be anything, and he agreed'. what I found was that instead of trying to react to me or move off the line etc, he was simply expecting an attack, which meant if the attack he was expecting didn't come, then he was hit.

People who say I'll break your neck spine etc your kidding yourselves, if you truely believe that, your going to find yourselves wondering how your in hospital if you try to use what you know. Call me an idiot doesnt bother me in the slightest, all I am doing is putting across some opinions and experiences I have had, if you dont like them then there must be some truth in them

I have trained with some very aggressive people, and yes, they can bury your head in the mat, but thats in an aikido setting, with aikido attacks and with me performing ukemi, which means basically that I am letting him throw me. I just dont think it would be so clean and easy in a realistic situation, prove me wrong.

And as you mentioned, immobilised but unhurt means that they cannot move, example a floor pin, but unhurt, if you didnt understand the first time


Edited by Robaikido (08/21/06 10:52 AM)
_________________________
Rob

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#280421 - 08/21/06 12:37 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko said
Quote:

Aikido ain't pretty on the REAL, its vicious, nasty, ugly, bone breaking, joint wrenching stuff!!! Imagine purposely breaking someone arm, knee or neck, feeling it break.
Not much different then Jujitsu sparring wise somethings work just, because they work, sorta like science.

Gentle Art, my a$$!!





I'd love to be able to transport you to the real world, but you have this fantasy based on very minimal experience with obviously either unskilled or unwilling people who don't do much hard training. My world has been exceptionally different from that, and I've trained with the best. If you think you'll "roll out" of one of my techniques, it's a misperception on your part.

What you don't understand clearly is that when I do a technique, "I" am in control of it... not the uke. I allow them to roll out of techniques to prevent injuring them... in self defense, they better have good skills because that nice big roll they have planned is going to be pointed straight down and the idea that you can protect yourself with ukemi skills is the best laugh I've had this morning.

When it comes to understanding what you're doing,... what Neko said...

There aren't any mats on the street... and one of those techniques done with concrete sidewalks is a little more "explosive" than when the aikidoka allows someone to roll out on the mats in a dojo. In the dojo, I'm not going to intentionally dislocate your joints like I will on the street, or break your ribs before throwing you... so you REALLY don't understand much about aikido. Two years training is about orange or blue belt level, and you have about 18 more years before you even begin to understand irimi... so please don't lecture us on your profound knowledge of the weaknesses of aikido and how you're having to go find something that can "hurt someone".

If you ever get to South Carolina, you call me and we'll go work out with some people who will give you a whole new concept in self-preservation. I don't have to put you in the hospital to be able to do so, and your assessments of aikido technique are without any basis of depth of knowledge.

Sorry you've had such a bad experience and been forced to train with people who don't want to train realistically... but just because your experience hasn't been a good one doesn't make the art suspect, just the players involved in your training.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280422 - 08/21/06 01:07 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I'm sure there are people out there that can use aikido for effective self defense, you may be one of them. Its just certain aspects of it give it a disadvantage. Let me give you my views, and as you say you are more experienced you can tell me otherwise.

1. Attacks arent realistic, you know what attack is coming, you are practising kata which is a pre-known movement, also the shomen etc attacks are not common street attacks, why dont you add things like haymakers and so forth to your classes. Things like rugby tackles, haymakers, close attacks such as headbutts would be more usefull to train agaisnt that shomen tsuki. Forget about coming back with maai distance, that doesnt happen when your at the bar or on a dancefloor.

2. Alot of the demonstrations I've seen, the uke will roll from and technique, whether it would really throw him or not, seeming out of politness for the nage, it happens.

3. Certain techniques such as iriminage are easy to stop, for example grabbing onto the throwers are as he is doing the technique

4. Assuming you are defending agaisnt a boxer, someone who doesnt throw all his weight behind his punches, keeping balance, how would you defend agaisnt this type of opponent.

5. No competitions = no adrenaline training. When faced with a real situation, adrenaline plays a big factor, are you going to be able to remember all of those gross motor skills and use them effectively, a factor alot of people overlook

You get my point, the problem I have with it, is that unless you go looking for trouble, there is no way to properly practice what you are learning. You may be a 5th dan, but that person may have never used his aikido for a real defence situation, and if the instance arises that he need to use it, having never faced an attacker that is coming at him to hurt him, the grade of the aikidoka suddenly is meaningless

Going back to what you were saying, you took what i said the wrong way. I didnt say i could roll out of your techniques. Quite the opposite, i said that the instructor told me to roll, when i didnt feel thrown, so i was taking ukemi rolling for what i thought was no reason. Which is what i see alot, in alot of clubs and videos you see. It seems if you dont roll for the nage, they get quite offended, which is dull because his technique doesnt work, really you are doing him a favour
_________________________
Rob

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#280423 - 08/21/06 06:56 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I have hitherto refrained from commenting but cannot do so any longer....

The point to note with Aikido (and many other systems), but in particular, Aikido, is that everything is hidden in plain view. It is up to the student to discern that which is hidden and to understand what it is that we train in, in Aikido.

1. Unrealistic attacks - define "realistic". What does "realistic" mean? What does a "realistic" attack look like? Everybody moves differently. Perhaps what we really mean by "realistic" is nothing more than mere intent to take your head off? The 3 basic attacks of shomen, yokomen and tsuki cover the entire range of generalized motion in the 3 planes - vertical, horizontal and sagital. Does it matter that the attack happens to come attached to an arm? Or perhaps a weapon? Or perhaps a whole body?

2. Ukemi - granted, many simply fall or roll for the sake of performing their role as uke, because of a lack of understanding of the purpose of ukemi. On a very basic level, ukemi is an escape mechanism - from getting hit, getting thrown, having your arm broken or dislocated etc. A slightly more advanced training purpose is to develop whole body sensitivity to force. Even more advanced is its role in developing body connection and core strength. Ukemi is the more important half of Aikido and the ability to take ukemi (i.e. RECEIVE technique) teaches you HOW to correctly apply technique when the roles are reversed. Failure to understand this = failure to grasp the real purpose of doing ukemi.

3. Reversals and Counters - ALL techniques can be countered and reversed...depending on how well technique is being applied. I'm not sure I understand your point.

4. Defence against a boxer (or someone who doesn't commit) - more training? There are many different defences... pick something that works. Look outside of the rote "forms" and find freedom.

5. Competitive training and the adrenal response - If you watch professional athletes in competition, ALL of them understand the intense focus and concentration required to perform at that high level. You don't see them getting the willies, heebie-jeebies and butterflies in the stomach do you? Why should that be any different in martial arts (or self-defence), where it's a life and death situation? Why would competition be even necessary, given that the point of the training is to develop similar skills in focus and concentration, specifically for the purpose of "tricking" the body to override the adrenal response?

I'm afraid I don't get your point. It seems clear that you have limited training as well as a limited perspective and understanding of what it is that you are supposed to be training.

So, rather than impose your biased perceptions of what the art SHOULD be, perhaps it would be wise to BROADEN your understanding of the art?

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#280424 - 08/21/06 06:57 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

1. Attacks arent realistic, you know what attack is coming, you are practising kata which is a pre-known movement, also the shomen etc attacks are not common street attacks, why dont you add things like haymakers and so forth to your classes. Things like rugby tackles, haymakers, close attacks such as headbutts would be more usefull to train agaisnt that shomen tsuki. Forget about coming back with maai distance, that doesnt happen when your at the bar or on a dancefloor.





Well, shomen attacks aren't designed to be "realistic"... they're designed to teach you something about movements and blending with them. They are also designed to teach you timing for such techniques as irimi, and that infamous ma-ai that you disdain so much... which by the way is the most important thing you need to learn. It isn't "being at the proper ma-ai that throws most people, it's knowing how to get to the proper ma-ai, and it doesn't always involve stepping back, up, or sideways... sometimes it's as simple as turning your body out of the path of a punch or strike. From there, you can adjust your technique to suit your attack.

Quote:

2. Alot of the demonstrations I've seen, the uke will roll from and technique, whether it would really throw him or not, seeming out of politness for the nage, it happens.





The purpose of many techniques is to lead someone to a point where it makes more sense (or is safer) for them to roll out of a technique than to resist it, so I won't disagree with you on this... only your understanding of it. I can promise you that any demo I did with you, you'd feel blessed for an opportunity to roll out of the technique before you got the full blast of it. "Politeness" wouldn't have anything to do with it...

Quote:

3. Certain techniques such as iriminage are easy to stop, for example grabbing onto the throwers are as he is doing the technique





I've been told that before... so by adjusting my technique, the last guy who told me that's funeral is Friday... Of course you can interfere with blending and intercepting techniques... the adjustments you make is where the skill is found, and irimi leaves more opportunities than you can stop by grabbing someone. If you grab me, I'll simply change to another technique to influence you not to try it again...

Quote:

4. Assuming you are defending agaisnt a boxer, someone who doesnt throw all his weight behind his punches, keeping balance, how would you defend agaisnt this type of opponent.





Not every technique works for every situation... that's why they call it practice... Most boxers can't block my aikido punches either, so does that nullify boxing? Skills are measured in effectiveness, and changing the angle of attack, energy pattern, or method of redirection can make a huge difference in how one technique works over another.

Quote:

5. No competitions = no adrenaline training. When faced with a real situation, adrenaline plays a big factor, are you going to be able to remember all of those gross motor skills and use them effectively, a factor alot of people overlook





If you're looking for competition take a rank test... with the prize being the one with the best technique gets the belt... not really...

Randori is where aikido is tested, and when you start against one opponent, it's pretty simple... two gets a little more complicated... three keeps you busy... and when you have "open randori" where anybody can come from anywhere in the dojo, it's "really interesting"...

We trained against people doing judo, aikido, boxing, karate, and jujutsu... so the attacks were whatever they decided to throw at us... standing, running, or stepping in attacks... so where is your problem with "realistic"? Of course, we didn't throw all that at yellow belts and orange belts, but "turned the burner up" as they improved in rank and grew in technique.

Quote:

the problem I have with it, is that unless you go looking for trouble, there is no way to properly practice what you are learning.




I totally disagree with that... we practiced against fighers of all kinds and all capabilities, from black belts in karate to French paratroopers and law enforcement officers... Judo players and boxers as well... If your school wasn't doing that, it's not the art's fault, it's your instructor's. We invite everyone to come show their stuff anytime, and will give them our full attention. Most of the time, it's both revealing and humbling for somebody... whether it the Aikido players or those that show up to show us up.

As for offending somebody, that never bothers me. If they don't have the technique to throw me, I'm not going to bail for them and make them look good. If they have technique, I'll be bailing to unload the energy and rolling out to protect myself. If it's contentious, either one of us may not get that chance...

What you need to do is to go to the black belts and tell them to train with you and don't hold back. One of you is in for quite an education...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280425 - 08/21/06 07:08 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Robaikido

In the 1st place topics that start with "X vs X" are pretty much looked on around here as a waste of time.

In answer to your questions.

An art is only as good as the person that is using it.
Don't people just "suck" at your dojo??
Are not some folks just really good?

You ever tried to "rugby tackle" your teacher or an advamced rank?
How did that work???

See, its not the art that matters--just matters whom is using it.
Some folks are killers and some folks could be armed with a bazooka and not be all that dangerous.

There is no such thing as an utterly "realistc" art.
Training and competions MUST have rules--for the saftey of the people working out and the folks competing.
So you don't step into the boxing ring and expect to get kicked in the groin you don't step into the MMA ring and expect somebody to stab you with a hidden knife.
Both could easily happen "on the street."

Ah, the keyword is "demo" there oh bright one.
LOTS of things happen in "demo" that are less then "real."
If it ws 100 percent "real" they woud cal it a "life and death" match not a "demo"

Nope, you change the response and the guy doing it changes TOO.
The iriminage not working? Use an atemi to the face--really hard--then do something else.

Defend vs a boxer???
Ok, lets play "lets pretend"
How would "boxer" defeat a guy with a knife?
How about a guy with a gun?
How about 3 guys with pipes??
A couple of pretty girls with a boxcutters?

My best advice is to train harder---or simply quit aikido if it does not do for you what you want.

Getting on-line and BMW (thats bitching, moaning, and whineing) about whatever "shortcomings" you "think" you see in aikido is pretty pointless.

You ever stop to think the "problems" you have with "aikido" have more to do with your inabilty to make it work?
Or maybe with how its taught where you train??

Pretty sure that Japanese Riot Police that train in aikido kinda know more about what they are doing than you do.

Maybe they just so stupid that they never thought about it??
Maybe they should have spoken with you before setting up training 50 or so years ago?
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#280426 - 08/22/06 04:50 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: cxt]
alphawolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 137
I dont have any experience with aikido, however, from what i do know it works in 2 ways. If you are bad, you are horribly bad and can't defend yourself out of a paper bag. If you're good, chances are you are amazing. Aikido is less forgiving then other arts in the technicality aspect of it. There is no room for making a mistake when executing something, or it simply wont work. I KNOW i would not want to fight against a high ranking aikidoka, because unless i am extremely quick or have amazing takedowns, i am going to get beat.
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#280427 - 08/22/06 04:56 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: cxt]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
You see, you thinking I'm being an ass by bring these point up, but with me putting points across that you lot dont like, I'm getting pretty good answers. Wrist twister, you've almost answered my first question, when I said why dont people challenge, well, you just said you do, to other people from other clubs and arts. That is what I would love my old club to do, win or lose, its the fun of trying to get these difficult techniques to work with someone who doesnt know how to take the correct ukemi. You've prob noticed that a beginner reacts to a technique alot like someone from outside aikido would, which is why training with other arts would be so benefical. Obviously people you train agaisnt from karate etc have a different view of aikido than alot of other people do, as you are challenging them, for the benefit of your art and theres, I just with I could find a club like that.

To other point I brought up which you didn't like, unrealistic attacks, adranaline response, telegraphed attacks, you answer all these negative point by do what your doing in cross training with other arts, I can see now why you were getting so annoyed , the clubs I have been to, although one 1 was very aggressive, with 1 6'7'' 3rd kyu having his skull cracked by a 4th dans iriminage, the club is still very traditional, and cross training as you mentioned is never even thought of. Out of interest, how do you get off agaisnt these other arts, what do you find difficult and what do you find effective?


Edited by Robaikido (08/22/06 05:09 AM)
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#280428 - 08/22/06 05:28 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
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Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
From what I have read in this thread,

I understand that as Aikidoka there is a 'misunderstanding' as to how the 'uke' will attack. I wouldn't step forward to give a backfist stike, I wouldn't lunge forward for a front kick either. I use Sabaki in all my defences. To be able to defend again a strike one must be able to understand the mechanics of a strike.
I suppose that Hapkido or Aiki-Jutsu are the intermidiates between the striking arts and Aikido, they take the best from both and blend them. so they therefore have a greater understanding on how one would balance their 'Hara' in and attack so therefore would be better adapted to defend against it.

Your reponse please

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#280429 - 08/22/06 10:28 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Rob

Nope, don't think your an "ass."

I do think you would have been better served by taking a few minutes and thinking your questions through PRIOR to asking them AGAIN.
If you had, the answers would have come to you.

So, its a questions of "club" not art---as you suggest above.

I think Ellis Amdur put it the best in one his books---where he said (my paraphrase)

"If your not willing to give an art all that you have---then the fault lies not with the art now does it?"

Most folks assume that an art is going to give them everything they might need for self-defense---which only holds true if YOUR willing to give the art everything YOU have.



Edited by cxt (08/22/06 10:33 AM)

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#280430 - 08/22/06 06:36 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: cxt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
CXT, I meant to hit Robaikido's post reply... (sorry)

In the age of "instant everything", martial arts are different. They take the same amount of time to become proficient for almost everyone, and how skilled you are is the measure of dedication, practice, and instruction... not one of the arts I've practiced in 43 years has been learned overnight or been an "instant fix" for some perceived attack.

Skills take time and practice. They take careful study of what you're doing, and consistent and "live" attacks of different types to learn to adjust the technique to different styles, arts, and sizes of attackers.

It isn't the art's problem if you're crappy at doing techniques, and if your school has problems, you need to find instruction that "measures up" to teaching you proficiently... and it doesn't take hachidan rank to be able to walk into a martial arts school and tell if people know what they're doing... but by the same token, you can't take yellow belts and tell me that an art's full of crap because it doesn't provide an instant fix for your holes in self defense.

Every art has some training techniques, some fighting techniques, and some techniques that are designed to teach whatever principles the art is based on. Loading up on an MTV attitude about martial arts doesn't make you right about your opinions regarding how effective martial arts are versus some other art. Their effectiveness is determined in the dojos and in application on the street in self defense situations...

Nobody's invincible, and nobody "has it all"... and a "weak moment" in your defense can make the most mediocre player look like Bruce Lee if you drop your guard or lose your concentration... so before you challenge the arts as being suspect, take a look in the mirror. If you aren't wearing a black belt, reserve judgement for a while. When you're wearing one that's 5th or 6th dan, you can start looking for holes in the arguments. Until then, you should be doing as you're told... smiling, and bowing humbly as you back away...



Edited by wristtwister (08/22/06 06:37 PM)
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#280431 - 08/22/06 08:11 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Dobbersky]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Quote:

From what I have read in this thread ... I understand that as Aikidoka there is a 'misunderstanding' as to how the 'uke' will attack.



A good aikidoka will take the time, if need be, to research what constitutes a good punch, kick, or other attacking technique and apply that learning to his/her training. A good teacher, in my opinion, will also encourage and model this behavior, taking time to teach the elements of good "uke-ship" in this regard. Clearly, movements in class are going to be stylized to some degree in order to impart the principles of the art--but learning these requires a certain amount of creative inquiry as well as the virtues of patience and close attention. As eyrie's pointed out, the goods are "hidden" in plain view. Sadly, too many aikido students--let alone would-be critics with only a superficial acquaintance--fail to appreciate what's right in front of their noses. But then, if ya really wannit, ya gotta work it, eh!
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#280432 - 08/22/06 09:05 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: kunin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Like anything else, a good attack has to be practiced as well as the technique to defend against it. As you said, the good players will research and learn how to punch, kick, and strike so that they can give you "something to work with".

Nothing is more irritating than to attempt to "defend" yourself against someone who offers no threat with their attack... in both jujutsu and aikido, it's like trying to make a milk shake out of water... there's nothing to work with.

A comedian I once heard used to say he was against guns because so many people committed suicide with them... but he never heard of many people who beat themselves to death with a stick...

If you have to be both the attacker and the defender, it takes a lot out of the practice.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280433 - 08/23/06 03:58 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: EvilKi]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
Quote:

Wrist your response actually made me laugh out loud here, reminds me of the first time I attended an aikido class, and I asked a smaller guy smaller than me and im 5'7 140lbs how effective is it in comparison to live arts such as judo boxing grappling all arts i participate in regularly. We sparred and what started out as a soft rotation turned into a very abrupt and hard wrist lock straight to the mat, from then on all i had was enormous respect for aikido. This is coming from someone who pracitces live sports or whatever rob wishes to call them, trust me aikido has its place, especially with the right individual.




My experience was slightly different...

I am an aikido-ka true and true. I wanted to find out if my aikido work. I went to a judo dojo and tried to check how how much I know my aikido. I did not get to spar with the teacher, because he wanted me to spar with a brown belt first.

I proceeded, and the brown belt owned me with a superb morote seoi-nage.I was stunned for many minutes, he had to help me off the mat as the fall really stunned my back, I could not walk at first. Damn, brown belt guy did not attack me with shomen-uchi. Who in right's mind attack by grabbing both lapel, it is not ' realistic' at all... In hind-sight I should have stopped him and scold him for attacking me wrongly.

Well, to the original poster, I tried, and failed. Forgive me.

Xwf.


Edited by xuzen_628 (08/23/06 04:01 AM)
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#280434 - 08/23/06 10:24 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: xuzen_628]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
When you change the rules of engagement you most likely will lose. You fight by Judos rules and Aikido loses. Just as if Karate fights by boxing rules Karate loses, Boxing by Karate rules Boxing loses. Most times.

You have to take a art a apply it your rules and make it effective, by hard training. So its the practictioner not the art.

If you asked any of the people I applied Aikido techniques on they'd tell you that it most definitely works. They would say that he almost broke whatever. Of course I've never broke anything sprained some ligaments or twisted some joints thats all. Its a vicious art, its only pretty in the dojo. I find it less vicious to KO someone then to twist or gain leverage to break their limb. Aikido is a nasty, vicious art thats the beauty in it.

As I mentioned you must make it work for you. Most of the Aikido I've been around like you was not as advance as what Wristtwister practice. I remember (when I was young) asking a Aikido Sensei (that also trained Judo) which would he use in self defense? He said his Judo training and mentioned that Aikido is an Opportunistic art less aggressive then Judo. This Aiki school also thought that Timiki Aikido bordered on Aiki-Jujitsu and was not the Aikido way, so what you think and practice is how you view your art.

Add it to what you know makes you more well rounded, no art is perfect.

My personal take is that if you add Aikido to what you already know its very effective, controlling and subdue the opponent with what LOOKS LIKE A gentle motion, rather then hitting them. But it ain't It hurts like hell.

The only difference in Jujitsu and Aikido is more body contact, more crank and less flowing with the opponents, perfect Jujitsu looks and feels like Aikido in some ways techniques. Both profess to be Gentle arts.

I see the original posters point but its because like me he and people he trained with were novices.


Edited by Neko456 (08/23/06 01:22 PM)
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#280435 - 08/23/06 10:38 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Wrist

Good post


Edited by cxt (08/23/06 10:39 AM)
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#280436 - 08/23/06 09:31 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko,
all it takes to practice the way I do is a good attack, and an uke that spends a lot of time learning to breakfall and do ukemi to protect themselves... and strangely enough, the more and harder you throw them, the better they get.

I have a high tolerance for pain, and resist most techniques longer than others, so that also helps me to "go harder" at jujutsu and aikido. When you learn to "feel" how much force you're putting into a joint lock, etc. you can strengthen all your ukes and practice partners.

Find somebody that's dedicated, and go as hard as you can as often as you can... that's what makes "good training". You don't have to have a master instructor with you all the time, just occasionally to "oil the squeaky spots" and you can progress much further than you'd think.

I was lucky to have partners that studied with masters, and made friends with some masters in aikido and jujutsu, and it's amazing how much you learn when they see you are really going after it. All martial arts are a matter of nuances, and the more you practice, the more difference they make in what you do. IMO

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280437 - 08/24/06 05:51 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Dobbersky]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Although I have practiced many styles previous and I teach/study Ashihara Karate and study Wado Ryu. These Aikido techniques take years to perfect I believe 8 years to First Dan. It is the pacifists way (no strikes) and I love the techniques and read many books on Aikido. Maybe when I am older and feel I do not need to use a finishing technique I will take up Aikido again.



Interesting

From what I see and I am learning aikido and karate meet at some point then it becomes hard to see the difference.

But check back in the future.


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#280438 - 08/25/06 04:52 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: ANDY44]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
sorry 2 sound like someone who is ufc / k1 mad, I'm using them as examples as we know they are good fighters. From your point of view, at your level and of your experience, in a street setting, concrete, plenty of room for example, do you think you would be able to defend yourself agaisnt any of them? Basically agaisnt some1 from bjj, who is going to be lookin for a takedown, or some1 from thai boxing, whos stand up skills are good??
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#280439 - 08/25/06 05:26 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
sorry 2 sound like someone who is ufc / k1 mad, I'm using them as examples as we know they are good fighters. From your point of view, at your level and of your experience, in a street setting, concrete, plenty of room for example, do you think you would be able to defend yourself agaisnt any of them? Basically agaisnt some1 from bjj, who is going to be lookin for a takedown, or some1 from thai boxing, whos stand up skills are good??



Hi there.

The answer to your question is YES
I have fought some good people in my time.

Have a read on the self defence forum.
Some of the conversations on there.

Dont realy see the point of the question but I suppose you will have your reasons.

Ooops
I do see the point of your questions, You had a bad expereince with aikido and you want to tell every body the downside of aikido or how bad it is?

For what reason?.

well first I know what I need.I also know that there are different levels of tuition and fighting abilities in all fighting arts. If you had a bad expierence then your going to have to find the person who can give you what you want.

You say proving ground for aikido is the UFC? why is that?
Why should som eone who practices aikido enter a competition? To prove to you that it works? Why should they do that?

Ok here are some questions. Can you apply a wrist lock that would put som eone down?Yes or no?
Have you looked in to the different aspects of aikido?
I have and I need what they offer. So I am looking in to what style I want to practice. do you do bag work?
do you practice judo?or ju jitsu?

What exactly do you do training wise?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/25/06 11:31 PM)

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#280440 - 08/25/06 05:30 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Rob,
I hate to sound preachy, but you seem to think that people who do BJJ are the only ones who ever do any groundwork, and that nobody in martial arts does any contact work except the UFC and K1 gang... all of which are "Johnny come lately's" as far as martial arts are concerned.

We were kicking a$$es and taking names with Judo and karate before any of the now glamorous "full contact fighting" had even been heard of, so don't sell us short. We were making lumps and bruises when everybody else was getting their diapers changed...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280441 - 08/26/06 02:22 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Method of training and time put in, brings about results in UFC and MMA. But there is a big difference in fighting in the street and in the safety of a cage/ring with a referee and Doctors. This type fighting would be effective in a fair fight or on the street. But also lead one open to other attacks on the street. Such as defense against knife multiples, unarmed and armed or make use of shifted weapons. If they know you have training they are not going to fight you fair. I found that out years ago.

Aikido is not a competitive art; It is a Self defense system. There is a difference and there no need to prove anything if it works in there its own arena.

Wristwister - As you mentioned MAs were surviving long before the UFC/Pride/MMA epidemic ever happened. Serious fighting is different then what happens in MMA.


Edited by Neko456 (08/26/06 02:28 AM)
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#280442 - 08/26/06 04:28 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Neko456]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I used ufc/K1 as an example! everyone here knows about it, I dont know about your background, what you were doing before they came around, I picked a group of fighters that every1 on this forum would know and be able to comment on, I also said in a street setting, not a ring. Now wrist twister, you may cross train, but I dont think that you will see groundfighting in many aikido dojos, the whole point of aikido is to stay on your feet and on balance, all I asked is that do you think you, yourself would be able to use aikido effectively agaisnt attackers of this type, and to ANDY, have you actually tried to put a wristlock on someone who doesnt want you to, I'd be suprised if you could put 1 on me let alone professionals. My background, aikido for 2 1/2 years, jujutsu for 2 years, boxing for 1 year, weight training for 6 years. I'm not lookin 2 bash aikido, because to be honest I would like to return to it, but I have to find a dojo that train the way I want to train, with the peiple in the class who want to train the same.

To go back to what someone said, you said aikido is self defense only and there is no need to prove it 2 any1. Well, if you are going to use aikido to defend yourself, what you get to work in the dojo agaisnt an uke with good ukemi, you might find it a different story agaisnt some1 who wont react in the same way to your techniques, or some1 who doesnt attack in 1 of the three main attacks you see in aikido. Thats why I want to find a dojo like the 1 wristtwister speaks of, who train properly but also cross train with other arts, for good practice, but also to experience other forms of attack, and to take some1s balance who is not going to let you.
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#280443 - 08/26/06 06:29 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814



You seem young and very in experienced and havent seen what MA,S has to offer.Also you are thinking that because you cant do something then every body else cant.The next thing will be you will be telling me that you can do a one handed press( shoulder dumb bell press overhead one handed) perhaps 60 kg and no else can and if they could you will be surprised. (can you?)

If you have been boxing for 1 year and ju jitsu for 2 years can I suggest you keep training?
Weight training for 6 years?

Rob aikido. I have a pair of sock poss older than you at home.They are clean no holes and have been around longer than you have trained.

Years ago I trained with a lot of thai boxer's. I wanted to work on some of the techniques they had to offer. They had "certain" techniques that I needed to train harder.Had nothing to do with who can beat who on the street.
Or where would I apply this in a self defence scenario



So here is a suggestion. keep training.
Forget ego and train hard and get good. Some where along the line you will need what aikido has to offer. You cant see it yet but in the future you might.

I am new to aikido but from what I have seen you are describing the training/learning methods ?


Better still why dont you describe, in detail,every detail, on here the way you were being taught aikido.
All of it and stop knocking or comparing who can win what with the art.


Let people on here who know what they are doing have a look at how you are being trained in Aikido

Your choice?


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#280444 - 08/26/06 08:42 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Andy,
this guy's problem is that he is inexperienced and has typical illusions of martial arts being instant fixes and instant technique abilities. His whole concept of fighting is apparently off the UFC style of MMA and has never seen the other arts practiced at anything other than the television stereotypes.

None of us will ever erase his preconceived notions... and he is doomed to learn the hard way... by getting his teeth kicked in. I've had students like that before, who simply wouldn't listen, and were all about "bringing the fight" to the art, rather than learning how to fight. Results are normally because they don't want to listen or learn... they have their preconceived ideas, and have to get hurt before changing their mind.

Rob, my friend, you are in a very dangerous situation... there is a lot of stuff out there that is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the MMA practices you seem so endeared to... punching, kicking, and choking somebody out are BASICS to fighting... You're like putting someone in a race car with no brakes... you're going to go fast, but you're going to learn about steering after you hit the wall...

My sympathies for your parents and your teachers...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280445 - 08/26/06 11:50 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Wristtwister -

Quote:

typical illusions of martial arts being instant fixes and instant technique abilities.




Good point, and unfortunately, one that will probably never go away. Study of XYZ style or training paradigm does not guarantee that YOU will ever be any good at it. Hard, serious work in most any style will likely result in a good fighter.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#280446 - 08/26/06 02:56 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: MattJ]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
you didn't answer anything i said, all you did was say how wonderful i think ufc is. i used the fighters from it as EXAMPLES of people who would be difficult to defend against, seems like you are dodging questions and just giving me BS about keep training your young and you know nothing. I'm only here to ask you some questions, if you get offended by them then thats you, just correct me, if you can put a good point across. As far as I'm concerned, telling me that an art like aikido which doesnt train in a 'live' fashion will make you able to defend yourself if you stick with it, and comparing it to arts such as thai boxing, judo or boxing, which do train in 'live fashions', is silly because without ever trying it you wont know. Its like buying something from a shop, never using it, until you need it, what guarantee is there that it will work. I know no art gives you a guarantee, but surely training in a 'live' fashion gives you as close as you can get to realistic.
_________________________
Rob

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#280447 - 08/26/06 03:39 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
You have created an unwinable argument. You say what you want then when you get a reply that is based in logic you say “well I have never seen it” or “I think that…”. What I would suggest you do is ask nicely and maybe just maybe Wristtwister will give you personal demo where in you can go as fast and hard as you want. Then when it is all over with you can come back and regale us with your stories of domination; other than that your just spouting nonsense.

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280448 - 08/26/06 04:31 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
Instead of calling it nonsense, which part do you disagree with and why?
_________________________
Rob

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#280449 - 08/26/06 05:19 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

Instead of calling it nonsense, which part do you disagree with and why?




What do I disagree with? Your entire argument
Why? You want some one to disprove your “opinions” on a forum, where as you need to see it or experience it first hand.

This is an unwinable argument.

In my personal opinion you are the personification of – A little information goes a long way.

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280450 - 08/26/06 06:12 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
You seem to keep coming back to the training in a live envirement situation. You seem to be using people you know to gauge the effectiveness of something. I know aikido people who I dont think are the best of fighters just as I know UFC, boxers , and even so called street fighters who I know are for some reason are not the best of fighters.
Yet.
Because they havent trained long enough or might never be because of their mind set.


I think the only way you are going to change your mind is to seek out a good aikido guy and train with them or dont train aikido at all and feel good thinking you have won your argument.
Dont seek out some one who is trying to learn the art and then be little the art as having no use.

Or are you just trying to win every argument?


The reason I say you are young and in expereinced is because I dont think you have seen why you mighy need what aikido offers.There is nothing wrong in being like that,(others might dis agree but i listen to them types all the time) except a person like that can become irritating, just keep an open mind.

Any how its your choice. You aked me a question I gave you the answer although I would rather you posted a vidio of a street fighter and asked me if I think i could beat that guy if i were attacked and how would I do it as opposed to setting off one martial art against another in a hyper thetical situation.


Just an after thought. People like wrist twister know what they are doing but you seem to just talk over him?



Cant see your logic


Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 09:06 PM)

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#280451 - 08/26/06 07:11 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
Quote:

Instead of calling it nonsense, which part do you disagree with and why?



I’ll admit, Robaikido, that there’s been some chest-thumping along the way, but what people with far more experience than you have tried to point out is that you're bringing some defective preconceptions to the discussion. Sadly, you keep holding to these. It's not about whether you're "ufc/k1 mad," as you put it. As long you continue to insist what you think you know about martial arts and fighting capability, you’re not going to be able to hear what’s being said to you, and folks are going to get frustrated and call you on it.

Consider, for example, that you seem to be bringing a duelist’s mentality to your hypothetical scenarios. As a woman, at least, I find that almost laughable in relation to the real conditions that someone like me needs to worry about in terms of self-defense. Tell ya what! I’m not terribly anxious about meeting up with someone like Matt Hughes or Chuck Liddell in a back alley to see who’s smokin’ the bigger cigar! I’m more concerned, in my neighborhood, about having to deal with someone wielding a gun or knife (whether to rob or rape), or with a bunch of gangbangers who might decide to have a little “fun” at my expense. Indeed, one of the first rules of street-wise common sense is NEVER to assume that you’re facing only a single attacker or that he/she isn’t packing!

In situations like that, the ground-fighting skills I learned in judo likely wouldn’t provide an effective first-line defense, would they? In truth, I’m more likely to call on the footwork and principles of spacing that I learned from my aikido training to escape (staying alive being the name of the game). Now, don’t get me wrong! I’m not saying that such newaza skills as I have wouldn’t come in handy if, despite my best efforts, I found myself taken down. It’s just that the ground would be the last place I’d want to go—much less remain—especially against more than one attacker. Similar considerations apply to stand-up boxing technique, which is designed for ring fighting one-on-one—where the window of attention is pretty much confined to what is in front of you. I can readily imagine how a good straight lead or cross could prove useful as atemi, but striking technique is only useful to the extent that it helps you manage the space around you 360 degrees. Believe it nor not, that’s one of aikido’s secrets hidden in plain view! Though an instructor might point it out, the full reality reveals itself only over time as the fruit of hard training.

I’m not writing just off the top of my head here. I’ve done quite a bit of what you call “live” training in my time, and I’ve taken my lumps to learn something about reality here. Whether you’re willing to admit it or not, my friend, you ARE aikido bashing, basing your comments on your own limited unsatisfying experience. There’s a lot more to aikido than “three main attacks” and a few wristlocks—too bad that you apparently haven’t seen it! Still, if you’ve since found personal satisfaction in ju-jitsu and boxing, more power to you. There’s no one here who would want to hold you back. But if you wish to process your experience with aikido on a forum such as this, then be prepared to listen as you read what other people have to say. Sometimes the best response to a question is one that holds the question itself up to critique.

If you reread this thread carefully, I think you’ll find that a number of people have actually done that for you. Take a look, Grasshopper! You just might find yourself learning more than you originally bargained for—and coming out wiser (and a better martial artist) for it!


Edited by kunin (08/26/06 07:16 PM)
_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

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#280452 - 08/26/06 08:25 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: kunin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Kunin,
very scholarly post, and right on target...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280453 - 08/26/06 08:58 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Kunin,
very scholarly post, and right on target


Totaly agree


Hi There Wrist twister.

I know you say that technique must be taught in person so to speak but I think with your knowledge you should write a book? Then people like myself can study it. With diagrams?

Just a thought.




Edited by ANDY44 (08/26/06 09:07 PM)

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#280454 - 08/27/06 04:32 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Am I correct in assuming that what you're really trying to say is (1) aikido (as you know it) does not train in a 'live' manner and (2) if one does not train 'alive' or 'test' one's skill against other stylists how do you know it 'works'?

This question has been asked and answered before.... several times.

You know, in the old days, people would visit the local school and euphemistically "pull down the school banner". It was th3 r34l test of one's martial prowess. Defeat meant significant loss of face, and victory a potential source of prospective students.

Sokaku Takeda apparently did just that. Many people came to challenge Ueshiba Snr. and I believe all of them stayed on as disciples.

The problem is, your argument is flawed. As MattJ has pointed out, it's not whether the art/system/style is ineffective, whether its training paradigm is in a 'live' format or not. The issue is whether or not the practitioner can apply [insert whatever floats your boat] art in an 'alive' format.

Even UFC/K1 competitors have off-days... does that mean that [bjj, blah blah woteva etc.] s.u.c.k.s?

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#280455 - 08/27/06 10:36 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Andy,
respectfully, there are hundreds of books out there that have correct information in them. It isn't a matter of "no information", it's a matter of knowing how to understand the information and how to actually feel the movement when it's correct.

True, I could parrot another book on jujutsu and aikido and probably make some money off it, but martial arts have never been about money to me. It's about the technique and having it in my repetoire and being able to pass it on to someone else.

The only useful thing I've found in books have been kata diagrams for karate that showed the correct embusen, points of kiai, etc. and a few of the aikido books that showed correct exercises. It's not an "information" problem, it's a "learning" problem... and as my buddy Eyrie has said, it's all "hidden in plain sight".

I read and study martial arts at least as many hours out of the dojo as I do in practice, and have for years. That's how I know what the latest panacea is for teaching and how somebody's trying to "spin" the information to look like they discovered it. I have no qualms about calling their hand on it...

First, unless your body works a different way from everybody else in the world, the body mechanics of ANY art are going to be the same. Your arms and legs move from the same points, your hips and backbone work the same way, and your parts are all located in the same places... so what makes one art different from the other?

To answer that question, I teach students that "karate is a hitting art", "Judo is a grappling and throwing art, as is jujutsu", Aikido is a blending art based on swordsmanship and jujutsu. From that, you should understand that some arts are force delivery, others use body mechanics to manipulate the body, and others use blending techniques to "accompany" the attacker's body in creating a technique.

Now, the rest of my information is learned in a dojo setting and with any kind of attack you want to bring with you... and some of my approaches to "self defense" might fool you... Like our buddy Rob, there are a lot of preconceptions out there, and it's a real surprise when they suddenly are attacked back with hitting techniques in aikido or judo or jujutsu... first reactions... "Oh, but that's not (insert art of your choice)"...

O.K.... so sue me for keeping you alive but not using your preconceived idea of what (art of choice) is...

Remember, only sports have rules and referees... and everything else is up for grabs... so when you start comparing things with "everything else" as Rob does, it's clear that he has no concept of what actually goes on in the real world. I've trained with some of the world's best during years when all this "hollywood" $*** was developing into what are "X-treme martial arts " and people were being purposely misled by others who had no knowledge of the finer points of martial training, or any interest in keeping the principles of martial arts. They were only interested in making money... so they sold out the arts for the bucks, and we have the situation now where everyone's arguing over which flea owns the dog, rather than focusing on good training and good technique.

Andy, I guess I'm addressing Rob's arguments and your question at the same time, but with that situation in place, do you really think another book of instructions is going to make any significant difference? The information's out there... it's a matter of training it and understanding in your body how it works and how it's applied.

I was once introduced as "a walking encyclopedia of martial arts" at the Okinawan Karate seminar, and while I would disagree, I think that it's what we need to strive to become... but it's more than that... it's "information in action"... which is the true measure of "mastery".

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280456 - 08/27/06 12:33 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by wristtwister -

Quote:

it's "information in action"...




I think that is the best description of a martial arts teacher I have ever read.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#280457 - 08/27/06 06:38 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Thanks Matt,
I appreciate the sentiment.

What most people overlook is that there is nothing I could ever tell someone in a book that didn't need practice to mean anything. It would have to become action before it could be seen as instruction... and that's true for any teacher in any art.

Martial arts are learned through the body, not from intellectual study... but that doesn't preclude anyone from learning tactics, angles of attack and defense, etc. from written sources. By concentrating on basics, most students can master the best techniques out there, but they won't learn the "feel" until they know application and timing... which are only taught by a teacher and through randori. By following their example and learning their timing sequences, they can indeed "master" a technique. When every technique they do is "that well done", they can indeed be deemed "masters"... but not from their own description, but the analysis of their peers.

In Japan, there are tests for "master" titles, and not much room for error or "invention", but when a teacher masters what they know, they can pass it on... which is the real mission...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280458 - 08/27/06 07:17 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


I read and study martial arts at least as many hours out of the dojo as I do in practice




I think this is EXTREMELY important! An instructor can only show a fraction of what he/she knows in a classroom setting. The student must expect to do their own research, enquiry, analysis, reflection and synthesis in their own time. It's like going to Open University.

Quote:


First, unless your body works a different way from everybody else in the world, the body mechanics of ANY art are going to be the same. Your arms and legs move from the same points, your hips and backbone work the same way, and your parts are all located in the same places... so what makes one art different from the other?





I don't have the exact quote, but I think Bruce Lee once said, martial arts are all the same, unless you have 4 arms and 4 legs...

Quote:


To answer that question, I teach students that "karate is a hitting art", "Judo is a grappling and throwing art, as is jujutsu", Aikido is a blending art based on swordsmanship and jujutsu. From that, you should understand that some arts are force delivery, others use body mechanics to manipulate the body, and others use blending techniques to "accompany" the attacker's body in creating a technique.





Now, how's that for MMA?

I think it's important to note that each art/system/style tends to focus on a small part of a larger whole, although certain arts like jujitsu and kempo are fairly well-rounded - containing essential elements of striking, kicking and grappling. Some tend to focus more on different aspects than others. It's basically strategic specialization - developing one's strengths to counter someone else's weakness.

Again, it's up to the student to discover this outside of a normal class setting. Cross-training is perhaps one option, but I won't go into the arguments for and against cross-training. That's an argument for another thread.

Quote:

there are a lot of preconceptions out there, and it's a real surprise when they suddenly are attacked back with hitting techniques in aikido or judo or jujutsu... first reactions... "Oh, but that's not (insert art of your choice)"...




It really cheeses me off when someone says that... It just shows how much or rather how little they understand. There is a heck of a lot of atemi waza in judo and aikido - or at least opportunities for it. Just because it is not usually practiced in a classroom setting, doesn't mean they don't exist. Certainly, when one is just learning a specific technique, one doesn't expect to be smacked or choked. Usually that is up to uke to decide if nage's technical holes need plugging. And nage should thank uke for "teaching" them.

The role of uke cannot be understated. It is the more important half of the art. When I'm uke for my students, I really make them work, otherwise they get smacked, kyusho'd or countered. And I expect them to do the same when they are uke for me. Sometimes they get lucky... mostly they don't.

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#280459 - 08/28/06 02:36 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Robaikido - asked Andy, have you actually tried to put a wristlock on someone who doesnt want you to, I'd be suprised if you could put 1 on me let alone professionals.

I see why they are saying you are inexperience, quite simply if any Aikido practictioner/or any system wanted to apply a wristlock on You or another skilled or non skilled opponent. It doesn't start out a wrist lock, you have to get close enough to work the lock that usually take what they call softing up. Usually after stomping the instep, elbow to the face, striking the grion and kneeing in the ribs, a wrist lock is very easy to attain. Where have you trained for 2-4 years of combined Aikido and Jujitsu and you don't know that. A simple Jab to a guy's nose and catch his arm trying check for blood to apply the lock.

All the stuff you don't see is whats important in Real situations, Very rarely will you or anybody try to lock up an alter resisting person.

Point being made Aikido has soften techniques, laymen terms =(will beat you down) to enter=(get close enough) to apply the locks or throws.

Most people that I applied a wrist or arm lock on, after I kick them in the balls gave me =(which mean they didn't resist much in laymen terms) their arm. I could have applied, whatever I wanted. Do people let you punch them in the face? No you got to take it, the same with a lock.

Almost like talking to a white belt, but I know you are not because of your training 4.5 years in Aikido and Jujistu, plus striking skills. I'm just wondering how you missed that?

Sorry I misunderstood that you were using the UFC as a reference point, but I think I understood that. Anyway I beg your pardon.

Eyier I concurr.



Edited by Neko456 (08/28/06 02:50 PM)

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#280460 - 08/28/06 08:51 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Neko456]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI Neko again you go straight to the heart of the matter.
good.
\We Train how we figth,We fight how we train

I didnt bother mentioning what you wrote because as you say any body who has trained/fought wouldnt have wrote could any body put a wrist lock on any body. I think the guy needs to keep training and studying.


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#280461 - 08/28/06 09:01 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Andy, I guess I'm addressing Rob's arguments and your question at the same time, but with that situation in place, do you really think another book of instructions is going to make any significant difference? The information's out there... it's a matter of training it and understanding in your body how it works and how it's applied.


HI there

Yes I do. Sure there are plenty of books out there. sure there are plenty of so called instructers who dont know jack #### earning vasts amounts of money.

I am a striker. People come and want to train with me because of my striking skills. I wont train with them because of ethics and past experiences.

So a person with arm/wrist locking skills?
That I need.


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#280462 - 08/29/06 05:35 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: ANDY44]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
Of course I am aware of the use of atemi, but as I think eyerie mentioned, you dont always see it, but it can be used, a few comments later, some1 said you train as ou fight, so you fight like you train, or words to that matter. Well, if you dont use them in training, you prob wont when using the art for real.

Another question, for the higher grades, when doing (insert technique here) do you find that applying atemi can interupt the flow and balance breaking, you have to be pretty quick to take the balance and to clock them one, I guess it comes with practice.

Going back to my first point, I have realised something, believe it or not I dont really care about self defense, I dont go looking for trouble, and its rare that it comes looking for me. I know how to throw a punch and am pretty strong so who cares if an art is practical bla bla bla. I've come to realise now that I think aikido looks cool, and is interesting, I love trying to flip someone as they extend. The funny thing is, that the people from boxing and jujutsu came in with black eyes all the time, as they used to look for trouble, whereas the aikido people never did. So thanks for all you replies, I had fun anyway
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#280463 - 08/29/06 06:11 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
When done within the context of sword/staff, everything IS atemi. So, everything I do IS atemi - whether it is implicit or not. It is an integral part of the movement, rather than an adjunct to making the technique work.

It also doesn't have to a "punch" or a strike with the hand... some part of your body is always entering, striking, or turning and cutting. In fact, I don't "punch" and "strike" as such, it's more like "hit" with kokyu.

Nor does the strike and cut necessarily have to physically connect with uke.... it can be a striking motion to the empty spot or "open gate" - usually whilst holding some part of their appendage....

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#280464 - 08/29/06 10:16 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Going back to my first point, I have realised something, believe it or not I dont really care about self defense, I dont go looking for trouble, and its rare that it comes looking for me. I know how to throw a punch and am pretty strong so who cares if an art is practical bla bla bla. I've come to realise now that I think aikido looks cool, and is interesting, I love trying to flip someone as they extend. The funny thing is, that the people from boxing and jujutsu came in with black eyes all the time, as they used to look for trouble, whereas the aikido people never did. So thanks for all you replies, I had fun anyway.



Good

Now can we get to some interesting conversations about technique as such?






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#280465 - 09/02/06 03:07 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Wristtwister, I would be interested in your perspective (not an X vs Y scenario) of Hapkido. Unfortunately where I am from there are no Aikido schools so my exposure to it, is limited to a one weekend seminar with Toshishiro Obata – the focus was Shinkendo and we only lightly touched on Aikido. I have however trained in Hapkido for a few years and it seemed similar.

As far as the “real life” questions, after having Obata Sensei’s (at the time) 14 year old son toss me around like his B**** for ½ an hour I don’t doubt it’s validity (I have a funny anecdote about Yukishiro but I wont go into it now).

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280466 - 09/02/06 02:43 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
From what I know of Hapkido and Aikido, they have very similar mechanics, but not "practice" systems. Hapkido seems to either be a "grab my wrist" or "fight" scenario, while Aikido is more of a "partnered" (i.e. balanced) approach to training.

Both use the same dynamics of throwing, takedowns, and pinning, but I think the Hapkido folks are a little "shorter" with their techniques than the Aikido ones. Short-cutting the techniques makes them extremely painful, but doesn't allow the uke a chance to protect himself very much, and while they have similar dynamics, I would suspect that Hapkido would incur more training injuries because of that... JMO

Hapkido is more of a blend of TKD and Aikido and the "angular" techniques of karate based skills is usually sharper than those of throwing based techniques because part of the training is to help the uke learn to protect themselves with ukemi as well as to teach the nage to throw or pin. Hapkido gives such little consideration to that side of the equation, I suspect that you "do what you can" and hope for the best... but both arts can be brutal at the level I'm accustomed to playing.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280467 - 09/02/06 06:49 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
My understanding of Aikido is you use bigger circles, where we use much smaller circles. As far as injury goes, yea, I could see it getting bad but it just requires control from both sides, you really need to understand your partner’s strengths and weaknesses. Both sides need to have some respect or it gets ugly.

Please go a bit deeper on this if you could.

Quote:

Hapkido seems to either be a "grab my wrist" or "fight" scenario, while Aikido is more of a "partnered" (i.e. balanced) approach to training.




Specifically the “"partnered" (i.e. balanced) approach” aspect, I am not sure what you are saying here.

I really wanted to disagree with you on this
Quote:

because part of the training is to help the uke learn to protect themselves with ukemi … Hapkido gives such little consideration to that side of the equation, I suspect that you "do what you can" and hope for the best...



But then I realized that I did not learn how to take a fall in Hapkido class, rather from the old Japanese style instructor I used to work out with in my free time.

As far as both being brutal, I have seen when good Hapkido technique goes bad; or gets better (depending on your perspective). I’m not too sure in medical terms what happened but the guy’s wrist made several popping sounds a split second before he hit the mat and it was blood red from mid forearm to finger tips. I have never seen that guy in class again. I felt bad but he was repeatedly told to slow down. I just could not let go fast enough…

Thanks
-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280468 - 09/03/06 10:01 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Specifically the “"partnered" (i.e. balanced) approach” aspect, I am not sure what you are saying here.





In Aikido, you have as much responsibility to your uke as you do to "being able to do the technique", and while it's up to them to practice good ukemi, it's up to you not to drive them through the floor with techniques that are like being in a train wreck. It's a matter of giving someone a "balanced attack", not simply driving through the window of opportunity to wreck the store and leaving the uke in the path of destruction.

Many of the Aikido techniques can destroy joints and limbs, and it's the responsibility of both parties to keep it balanced so they can keep training. The uke needs to have good ukemi, the nage to balance the technique and give the uke an opportunity to respond and dissipate the force without injury.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280469 - 09/03/06 11:28 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
Quote:

it's the responsibility of both parties to keep it balanced so they can keep training.




Kind of where I thought you where going but not sure.

As far as the above noted injury, I was intending to show a counter to the only technique that he had any faith in. The guy was part of the “this stuff doesn’t work” crowd (it didn’t help that I was much younger than he was). It was attack, defend, counter with me starting. The guy took off at light speed, so when it came time for me to counter he was doomed, like I said I couldn’t let go fast enough. I had told him several times to GO SLOW!!! Other than this one (and maybe a bad fall every now and then), I honestly don’t remember any other injuries, so I would just say that we go about it differently I guess, and I would say probably a bit slower than you like.

Next time I am in the SC area I want to look you up, if you leave me with one good arm I’ll even buy the beer. Honestly, I have wanted to train in Aikido since the first time I saw it, but like I said no access…

Thanks for the info,
-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280470 - 09/05/06 03:04 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Atreu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 11
Loc: under the southern cross
ok there are some aikidokas like me who dont mind getting into a biff once in a while. Infact Osensei's early students used to go to the red light district of tokyo and pick on street thugs and try their aikido on them.

My fellow aikidoka would start preaching the indoctrinated concept that aikido is a monk's martial art hence we should not fight at all. I say bullocks to those self righteous evangelical hippies.

Aikido versus kicks (taekwondo). irimi nage works well on round house kicks especially. Kumi nage or Neck pinning throws are very effective to high kickers.

Aikido versus muay thai clinch. blend to the left and right turn tegatana the knee cap then koshi nage(hip throw)

Aikido versus Judo. atemi atemi atemi atemi

aikido versus kung fu et wu shu- circular irimi and kokyu nage.

Aikido versus karate- my favourite is kote gaeshi when they do a front punch then the quick pull. shiho nage for over commited punchs and kicks.

aikido versus kendo- I'll ask for the same armour but I would use my Iwama tipped kamagong boken.

Aikido versus Jodo- I will use my Kamagong boken for offense and used jo dori and kentai jo or 31 jo movement to break their jo (or head or hand).

Aikido versus tanto jutsu- Aiki tanto waza techinues...I prefer using two knives at the same time.

Lastly

Aikido versus Ninjitsu- Aikidokas consider themselves as samurai. Ninjas are the classic antagonist of such warrior spirit bukiwaza (weapons) or taijutsu (hand to hand)bring it on.

Otherwise...I would rather drink sake with you and sing to power ballad karaoke songs.
_________________________
Sumorai Speak softly Kiai loudly carry a big kamagong boken

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#280471 - 09/05/06 05:59 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: Atreu]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
And you are speaking from personal REAL (TM) experience right?

Xwf.
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#280472 - 09/05/06 07:25 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: Atreu]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
What is a biff?




not another boring thread i Hope
You dont by any chance practice other martial arts like Mauy thai or ju jitsu do you?

Any how just to cheer things up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgKRt81khM&NR
How to get onthe good side of the ref



Edited by ANDY44 (09/05/06 07:41 AM)

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#280473 - 09/05/06 07:43 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI wrist twister what do you think to this guy?
s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgKRt81khM&NR

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#280474 - 09/05/06 07:26 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: ANDY44]
Atreu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 11
Loc: under the southern cross
Hi a biff is an aussie term for a fight (it is the sound of a punch hitting a body) yes living in Australia for 25 years can land you in a lot of biff especially as the only coloured guy in all white school. Plus guns and carrying knives are illegal here in Australia so if there is a fight it is hand to hand most of the time

yes I did karatedo, judo, muay thai, arnis, wing chung, pa qua, shing yi, BJJ, chen style tai chi, and boxing.

I stayed with aikido because it really challenged me. It is a bloody hard art to master. Plus it offered me the AWASE skill- that is the ability to use someone elses strength, power, force, and intention against them. Also aikido teaches you how to use and manipulate KI. I think aikido is the only art that offers these skills. I also think that is why we cannot have comps and we're supposed to be peaceful because if we become trigger happy with aikido...there will be a lot of us ending in jail for man slaughter or murder.

So peace mate
_________________________
Sumorai Speak softly Kiai loudly carry a big kamagong boken

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#280475 - 04/12/07 09:00 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: Atreu]
sl000w Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/12/07
Posts: 7
It should be said that traditional aikido does not have any katas for kicks. Modern aikidokas have improvised.

Re aikido vs judo, that would be the ideal attack for an aikidoka because that is how randori works -- ie, the attacker lunging towards your body in an attempt to grab you.

Re aikido vs punches, that is fairly straightforward. Ikkyo and its variants, shiho nage, kotae gashi all work well.

Then there's irimi nage which can be used in practically every situation, including defending against kicks.

Re bjj or wrestling style shoots, what about kaiten nage or a tenchi nage with hands on the biceps or shoulders if the approaching person's arms are wide open; otherwise, an ikkyo going after the elbow.

Worst case scenario, you can always invite the other side to use a weapon such as a baseball bat, a metal bar, a knife or a broken bottle, in which case the defenses will be stock standard aikido. ie, There are only so many ways to swing a sword or a knife.

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#280476 - 04/27/07 08:05 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sl000w]
sandan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 8
I can only speak for myself but as i was developing my Aiki/jitsu skills over the years i tried to visit as many clubs which practised different styles as possible, so that i may learn how to deal with the various styles.

all i can say is Aikido practised properly with the right amount of agression is in my opinion one of the most effective arts around.
if you doubt me i lived in Thailand for 2 years and practised with the trainer of the Thai champions at the siptolek Gym in Pattaya.
I also run my own class here in the Uk, I mainly teach doormen these days as my style is slightly more Aki Jitsu, all the doormen i teach are fairly big lads the biggest been 6" 8" and 20 stone.
now i deal with him and others effectivley. as for me Im a mere 12" stone and 5" 7". i dont throw down challeges as my ego is way past all that and im 46 years old, but i have always dealt effectvley with all attackes ive had the fortune/mis fortune to come up against.
furthermore i was attacked last year by a bjj fighter who took me by supprise and he did get me on the ground but soon let go when i nikkioed him rather aggresivley. although Aikido is non aggressive do you realy think that if you attacked myself or any other Aikidoka in an aggresive manor youd be getting peace and harmony! remember o"sensi said 90% of Aikido is Atemi!.

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#280477 - 04/27/07 11:20 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sandan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

all the doormen i teach are fairly big lads the biggest been 6" 8"




A person would have to be a fool to mess with a 6 to 8 inch doorman.

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#280478 - 05/25/07 05:06 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sl000w]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
To the original poster... there are a couple of reasons why you won't see many aikidokas responding to a challenge, and the idea that it goes against the spirit of aiki is a legitimate one. Let it not be said however that any are against defending themselves or their art. But the fact is, in order to really show another martial practitioner the effectiveness through sparring, aikido has to be pretty darn brutal. Steven Segal movie brutal

The idea that Aikido allows you to subdue your opponent without hurting them is a nice friendly idea, but not necessary. Yes, it gives you the option to put them in nikkyo and walk them out of a building - it also gives you the option of performing a kote-gaishi that could break their wrist. (Actually, that's usually why a kote-geishi looks to be a throw. It doesn't so much throw the uke as it makes the uke think - if I don't throw myself I'll have a broken wrist)

The founder of my school (Suenaka Sensei) opened the first successful aikido dojo on Okinawa - which had him defending the art against high ranking karate students regularly. He never lost, and actually gained a few native students after he defeated them. If you hear his stories, boy it was brutal - broken bones were not uncommon. Some of his stories can be found in his book - and are remarkably fun to read. (Most of the aikido articles on this site are by him and you can find info about the book there if'n ya care)

So why don't aikido students compete? I don't know for sure, but I have a theory... You can't defeat a competent martial artist with pain alone (aikido moves not being likely to knock someone out in the traditional manner). Hit them with a nikkyo and they will probably get back up and keep coming - you'll have to disable (seriously injure) them. Start throwing around someone who isn't used to ukemi and you could permanently hurt them. As much fun as it might be to put another guy in their place, it's more aiki to ignore them.

But you can do a search on YouTube (and the like) and find a few exhibition matches here and there. Basically though, it's because Aikido isn't a competition art and is NOT safe to practice as one.

Quote:

It should be said that traditional aikido does not have any katas for kicks.



That's not technically true, O Sensei was accomplished in many arts, many of which included kicking. To say that he hadn't devised a way to defend against the kicks wouldn't be accurate. If you ever ask an Aikido sensei this question (and I don't really recommend it) you'll find that there are plenty of techniques for kicks - they just are not shown often. From my limited experience, I'd say it's because it hurts so darn much
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280479 - 05/25/07 08:20 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I love these conversations but I got in on this one a bit late...

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#280480 - 05/26/07 05:10 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sl000w]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Doesn't defend against kicks eh? Here are two local Aikido instructors doing an Aikido demo... This is Tomiki Aikido, defense against kicks are exactly as Kenji Tomiki taught them. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35R0xmA5VOM
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#280481 - 05/29/07 01:01 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

. . .there are plenty of techniques for kicks - they just are not shown often. From my limited experience, I'd say it's because it hurts so darn much



We have defenses for every type of kick. True, they are not practiced as much as other defenses. There are several reasons for this:
1. they hurt (as SBuddha stated)
2. proper kick defense requires proper kick execution--many people who only train Aikido are not good at kicking
3. kicks are not a very common street attack
4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?
I teach Aikido as well as Hakutsuru Karatedo at my dojo (as does Suenaka Sensei at the Hombu dojo). We practice kicks and kick defense. As a matter of fact, I was asked to do only kick defenses for one portion of my Aikido nidan test.
Quote:

It should be said that traditional aikido does not have any katas for kicks.



To the poster of this statement: What do you mean by traditional Aikido? Do you consider all Aikido taught by O'Sensei to be "traditional Aikido", or do you draw distinctions between earlier and later (pre- and post-WWII) Aikido, both taught by O'Sensei?
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#280482 - 05/29/07 03:22 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
I was sitting here at work, trying to come up with a good excuse to not get anything done, when the following question popped into my head...

Do other, more obviously combat oriented arts, get asked the same sort of question? Do people regularly try to challenge a kenjutsu master with similar intent? Or maybe challenge an ex-military Krav, or MCMAP expert?

I'm not suggesting that Aikido is similar to MCMAP, but that different arts have different goals. Seems to me that it'd be foolish to challenge an archer to sporting hand-to-hand. Has anyone noticed this as well?

I'm also curious what people feel about another thing. I've tried a few other arts besides Aikido - dabbled being the operative word - and I've never had a problem showing others the cool thing I just learned. I can honestly say though, that I've never tried to show others a full Aikido technique, for fear of hurting them. To me it seems different to show a karate style arm bar to someone than it is to show a Kaiten Nage. If I show an arm bar I can show the block and the break and they usually get it. When I show an Aikido move I usually take them close to the throw and then say "if I had done this faster (and correctly ) you would be on the ground now". Sometimes they get it (friends who understand physics usually do get it) and sometimes they don't. Maybe I'm too nice to my friends! Do other Aikido peeps share my reluctance to demonstrate their art (aside from inviting friends to visit your class)?

Quote:

4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?



Ha ha ha ha ha! I never thought of that!
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280483 - 05/29/07 09:18 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Do other, more obviously combat oriented arts, get asked the same sort of question?






obviously more combat oriented arts

Like what?... nuclear warfare?...

I don't know where you've practiced Aikido, but it's always been plenty combat oriented as far as I know, and it's very telling to say something like that. You need to step up your practice a few notches and get in there and practice with a few "slammers"... then come back and tell everybody how mild Aikido is.

Start with the stuff that doesn't hurt, and work your way up... then come back in about 20 years and ask that same question. Pick a few guys with 2nd or 3rd dan to practice with and tell them to "turn it loose", so you can get the full view of your arse as your head goes past it.

... more combat oriented arts

Best of luck... you'll need it.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280484 - 05/30/07 10:30 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: wristtwister]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
Quote:

Like what?... nuclear warfare?...

I don't know where you've practiced Aikido, but it's always been plenty combat oriented as far as I know




I agree, I'm not trying to say that Aikido isn't combat effective. Only that arts taught to soldiers are often of a more - how do you say - final in nature. I read that when Suenake sensei was in Vietnam he modified the waza that he taught because he was teaching soldiers how to fight for their life. By combat oriented I simply mean an art specifically designed to kill the other person before they kill you. Sure, aikido could do that nicely, but it's not the intent of the art (I don't think...).

Does that make more sense? I was actually trying to establish an equilavency between being a bad idea to challenge a Krav master or an Aikido master because neither has competitive rules that they train themselves to follow.

Say what you want; to a person who has never been uke before Aikido doesn't look as combat effective as an elbow to the face. So when I said more combat oriented arts, I simply meant from the perspective of someone like that. I'm luckly enough to uke for a yondan twice a week (he takes it easy on me though - thank god!) so rest assured I didn't mean to insult!
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280485 - 05/30/07 11:52 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

3. kicks are not a very common street attack




Hmmm... I've seen them used in several street and bar fights. Certainly frequently enough for me to want to know some basic defenses against them.

btw, those were nice kick defenses in that clip.

Quote:

4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?




Actually, yes. Provided that the hakama is not too long, it's really not difficult. The leg of the hakama will usually come up over your foot, toward your ankle.

If you can walk in the hakama confortably, and it's not too long for you if you use it for any type of Iaido, I don't think you'll have too much trouble kicking while wearing one.

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#280486 - 05/30/07 01:50 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
Hagakure Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 86
Loc: Detroit
Im loving this, you should redirect yourselves to my favorites site http://www.bullshido.net/
You would have a ball there
_________________________
I am my enemies sadness and sorrow

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#280487 - 05/30/07 06:12 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: Hagakure]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

Im loving this, you should redirect yourselves to my favorites site http://www.bullshido.net/
You would have a ball there



Yeah, good call.

Tell you what... why don't you go ahead over to your favorite site, and just sit tight and wait for us... we'll all be there shortly, I promise.


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#280488 - 05/31/07 12:12 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
aikidonut Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 100
I started reading this thread recently... wanted to see what the big fuss is all about ...8000 views, 80 replies...good job, every one! if we were in a dojo with all this going on, you wouldn't be able to see out the windows...anyway,.. I truly do not wish anyone to experience a rise in blood pressure when reading my posts, I'm trying to change...nor do I want to increase my arterial pressure,... I only wanted to contribute this:

I was a 3d kyu a few yrs back ( still not shodan), and my now ex- wife used to drag me to her Korean church. Anyone like bagels and kimchi in the morning? i digress... i noticed all the kids were getting real bored during their sunday school, so I offered to teach a few aikido classes, with my sensei's permission. anyway, they already had TKD classes there,espec being korean , and they did get nationalistic.... and i could see they were gettg real bored with it.... i mean ,ok i think someone in this thread said aikidoka do kata...but at least they're with an uke who can react to a mistake... in tkd it's basically solo kata and hittin bags..oh look, the bag moved wrong ..... so these kids were rolling their eyes, in boredom,and all that, as kids are wont to do .i'm not faulting tkd.it was prob the teacher's fault just as much....so i had the opportunity to teach class once,so i taught ikkyo, and sankyo, as well as sankyo nage....you should have seen these kids light up ! they had never rolled out b4, never countered a wrist grab with ikkyo, they could feel the power, and they learned how to control someone else,i showed a nikyo finish too.i mean , you dont get that by punching the air, or a bag only goes so far .. it was like a light turned on in their minds..they had big smiles,...kidding with each other, and after class they were kiddingly doing sankyo and little sankyo nages on each other,playing, as kids should.. and laughing, having a real ball...the kids knew me by name now, regarded me well, and they came and asked me to teach some more.

I ask you, could these kids have interacted with each other, and bonded like they did if they were punching and kicking? I think not...bloody noses are not amicable expressions. these kids were living proof that aikido is cool, it's great , it turns on a light for everyone..

these kids, to me,with their actions, voted big time for aikido over their current MA. we could argue on these forums till the cows come home, about which is tougher, which works best in a barfight, ..but this is a story about getting disaffected kids to connect.

So I realized , i wasnt teaching self defense, or how to be tough against a bigger person, I was showing them how to connect with each other... it was probably one of the most gratifying experiences i have had in aikido.... that's when i realized, aikido , while it is effective on the street ( and it was, for me ), is really more to connect with other people, I dont want an MA in which the mindset becomes kill, kill, kill, b4 u are killed....then what happens?

please, i only wanted to contribute this story, it is not a knock on anyone.. i had rememberedit when i was reading all these replies about which is better..etc...


thanks for listening, all.

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#280489 - 05/31/07 06:31 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Quote:

Im loving this, you should redirect yourselves to my favorites site http://www.bullshido.net/
You would have a ball there



Yeah, good call.

Tell you what... why don't you go ahead over to your favorite site, and just sit tight and wait for us... we'll all be there shortly, I promise.






ROFL
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#280490 - 05/31/07 10:47 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: MattJ]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ooooommmmmmm.... I'm transcending to the other site now....

OOPs, didn't work... maybe later...



_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280491 - 06/01/07 09:22 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

Quote:

3. kicks are not a very common street attack




Hmmm... I've seen them used in several street and bar fights. Certainly frequently enough for me to want to know some basic defenses against them.

Quote:

4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?




Actually, yes. Provided that the hakama is not too long, it's really not difficult. The leg of the hakama will usually come up over your foot, toward your ankle.




I bartended for nine years. In that time, I witnessed and/or broke-up about 50 fights and never saw one person use a kick. I have seen kicks used in fight clips from reality tv shows (RealTV), so I know they are occasionally used. We also practice kick defense (in Aikido and Karatedo) quite a bit--it was a big part of my Aikido nidan test. I was just trying to give reasons why some schools do not practice them very often.
As for the hakama comment--that was a joke (thank you, I'll be here all week).
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#280492 - 06/01/07 11:11 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Hi James,

I guess we've just seen a different sample of street / bar fights. No problem.

The kicks I have seen in those situations have been pretty wild - like many of the punches. Most of them seem to have been aimed at the crotch. You would know from your experience that these fights are not pretty or choreographed.

As for kicking in the hakama... I didn't realize you were joking... I was actually answering seriously. I train in an old style of Hapkido, and we have a sword art that is heavily based on MJER that we also do. Sometimes after sword class I'm too lazy to change into the traditional uniform, and just leave the hakama on for Hapkido. Kicks really aren't hard when you're wearing it. But, all of our styel's kicks are low, so that probably makes a difference.

Thanks for your reply.

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#280493 - 06/02/07 03:47 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
So, here's a little chain of thought I had today... people (not necessarily here) would say that Aikido could beat MMA in a street fight since Aikido trains more toward street situations than competition. Personally, I think this is true because the inverse is definitely true. (Edit: later I talk about why this really doesn't matter)

If you were to take an Aikidoka, and put them in a UFC fight, I'm pretty sure they'd lose - probably badly. UFC rules prohibit small joint locks which would remove - well, a whole heck load depending on how the rules were inforced - of the Aikidoka's arsenal. Not to mention that the MMA opponent has trained specifically to have an advantage under the rules, and how the conditioning differs, I don't see that there would be that big of a question. I'm sure the fight would be interesting, but the MMA would be stupid to not take the Aikidoka to the ground so the ending would still be pretty much guaranteed.

But in the same vein, this works against the MMA fighter on the street. A small joint lock would probably surprise the heck out of him. The rondori training would let the Aikidoka take more advantage of the area than the guy trained to focus on an opponent exclusively in a clutter free ring. This would let the Aikidoka to keep the fight at their best range - and even use them as weapons. This would sway this fight toward the Aikidoka.

Of course in the real world, training isn't typically of a single art. A lot of Aikidoka's also take multiple arts, as by definition do MMA's. I'm sure that a number of MMA's also take arts that aren't competition focused, and I know I've met Aikidoka's with TKD, BJJ, Judo, or karate black belts. And it doesn't even start to discuss the age or physical condition of the opponents.

If you have two BJJ trained fighters in a UFC match, does the winner prove that BJJ is awesome, or does the loser prove that BJJ sucks? Of course it shows that X person is better than Y person, and that's about it. I suppose we could ask if Ken Shamrock could beat up O Sensei but then we'd get into what age - O Sensei would have beaten Ken when they were both alive because Ken Shamrock was 3 - if O Sensei were still alive Ken would win because O Sensei would be over 100 - if they were both old O Sensei would win because Shamrock's knees would be shot - etc.

Then we find out that we're trying to determine who would in in a fight between The Hulk and The Thing and that one's been done to death (probably by me )

If you want to know if [you] can win against SBudda, I'll tell you the answer now. It depends on who wins when I don't show up - cause if I did you'd whoop me! But the real question is can Aikido beat that butthead in the bar who won't stop hitting on your wife's friends that you are escorting? Can BJJ beat that guy who jumps you in the bathroom for your wallet? Can Kali beat that guy who broke into your house for long enough to get your shotgun?

OF course this is also on the individual level. The Kali I know could be written in two sentences, one if I knew the right name for the moves, so it probably wouldn't help. Same as if I had a black belt in Kali from a crappy school, or even if the intruder also knew Kali or already had my shotgun

Heck, I started Aikido because my brother is a mean drunk and I wanted to be able to beat him down if need be without breaking something. Seriously, he's not the kind of guy you want to drink with... and I've already achieved my goal. I'm not a master, and I've not had to be there when he's doing something stupid, but now I know something to do when before I knew nothing other than good ole Southern bar fighting (beer bottle).

I found that I really enjoy it, and everyday I get better. For each of us, we got into the martial arts for weird reasons like I described (or maybe not ). But we stay with it because we like it. It's the advice you give anyone starting out - try a class, stay if you enjoy it. Sure, there are jerks out there who try to call an exhibition style a combat art, or what have you, but I'm not going to look down on someone who takes an exhibition art because 1) he likes it, and 2) it does look really cool.

So those are my thoughts why I've decided that Aikido v. Etc is pointless. Now, Aikido v. Piao de Mao or Aikido v. a spinning backfist would be a great discussion. Mainly because I don't know the answer and I've love to hear it!

Although... it'd be fun to motion capture some of the grandmasters of various arts and put them in a video game. Something like Virtua Fighter but an even closer simulation. Hummmm, if I beat you at the game while playing as a BJJ grandmaster does this mean Aikido is better? Ohhh, then 5 years later we would have Marvel V. Grandmasters and finally see if O Sensei could beat The Hulk. It'll probably depend on who has the better fireball...
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280494 - 06/04/07 02:43 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

If you have two BJJ trained fighters in a UFC match, does the winner prove that BJJ is awesome, or does the loser prove that BJJ sucks? Of course it shows that X person is better than Y person, and that's about it.




Very good observation.

Quote:

Then we find out that we're trying to determine who would in in a fight between The Hulk and The Thing




Who cares, as long as Jessica Alba is in the movie version.
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#280495 - 06/04/07 02:57 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
Thanks a lot Bodhi, now I'm gonna be daydreaming about being uke for Jessica Alba all day... the last thing I needed was to develop a fetish for irimi...

Boy, that was a really bad joke.

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#280496 - 06/05/07 03:00 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
dalen7 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 1
I find it interesting that everyone is seeking the ultimate martial art.
Which will beat the other.

Bruce Lee found the answer to this and demonstrated it with J.K.D.
That simply one art will not do it - nor is it a combination of any particular arts.
Its about knowing yourself, your body, and whats right for you. (Thats when you master an art...you dont master the art, but rather understand how to adapt the art to you - i.e. break the rules)

I have read a couple of comments about kicking not being used in real fight situations. AGain, this is all conditioning. The 'big' man in the west has grown up thinking that 'biting' (mike tyson) scratching (grizzly bear) and kicking are 'sissy' - and it shows when they are in a situation...they are predictable and act a certain way. (even if not trained in the art)

But in a true defense situation, here is an example.
I was attacked, someone actually came up to me and used a judo/aikido type grab on me - I went with the flow to avoid pain, they ended up at a later point (after me having had the advantage of having them in a head-lock...I did not want to hurt the person, or I could have bashed face in) but they threw me on the ground. Well this person about 3 times bigger than me started to come down toward me, and with my doc martins I kicked their nose, got up and punched their face quickly in the nose...at which the fight stopped.

again, the fight was initiated by them, and throughout the fight I had tried not to use any 'hard' technique. But at the end to get rid of them and ensure that they caused no more harm, I did what instinctively came to me.

So, in a fight...(and had this been a matter of life and death, different techniques would have been used, etc) you do what you can, and mix whats appropriate at the moment. That is kind of the heart of aikido (i have only had 3 lessons so far, 4th today.) The heart is to adapt to the moment.

So, what art beats what? At the end, it depends on the situation and the people fighting.

Peace

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#280497 - 06/05/07 07:40 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: dalen7]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Quote:

Its about knowing yourself, your body, and whats right for you. (Thats when you master an art...you dont master the art, but rather understand how to adapt the art to you - i.e. break the rules)



beautifully said
I think this would apply across the board no matter what art/arts you study.

Quote:

The heart is to adapt to the moment.



Quote:

At the end, it depends on the situation and the people fighting.



again

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#280498 - 06/05/07 07:58 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: evad74]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I hate to rain on the "kumbayah" parade, but fighting is always about intent and "the moment". You can train for years doing one art or the other, and it's all out the window when the guy you're fighting kicks you in the groin or punches you in the throat. A good "eye poke" can change your plans too, and I can vouch for the fact that when you get poked in the eye, you can't see anything for awhile.

Steven Segal used to say in his movies "chance favors the prepared mind"... and that's entirely true. If you're training to be training, the first pain will stop or alter the fight. If you train to fight, you'll have two posititons... off and on. Pain won't matter as much, and your intent will change your focus from "doing a technique" to "eliminating the threat".

Going back to the basics of the arts, and learning some additional striking skills will make Aikido much better for you in self defense situations, because you most likely won't try some very complicated technique if you're defending yourself (unless you like getting hurt)... so it's like all the other arts... back to basics. Hit'em if you can, and then do whatever you can to them.

I have to laugh when I hear that you "wait on your attacker" and redirect his energy... and I don't know that Toyoda Sensei or any other Aikido teacher I've had has told me that. They have told me to "blend" with my attacker, but never what the great and hairy unwashed seem to think of Aikido's "principles"... that there's no attack in Aikido. As a fighting art, it's one of the principal skills... we just keep it well hidden.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280499 - 06/05/07 08:57 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: wristtwister]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
Is your reply to me ?

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#280500 - 06/05/07 10:03 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: evad74]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Actually to both of you. Your understanding of the arts change with combat. While you can go on the great esoteric search for understanding licking postage stamps, the practical side of your arts depend on your intent in training. It has nothing to do with others, other than the fact that you need others to gain skills. The better their skills, the better yours.

Quote:

Its about knowing yourself, your body, and whats right for you.



That's learned by combat, in combat arts. It's called technique.

Quote:

The heart is to adapt to the moment.





"the moment" is what it is all about. The art "is" the moment.

Quote:

At the end, it depends on the situation and the people fighting.





Uh oh! Wrong answer, but thank you for playing...

Aikido is like a tornado... the center is calm, and everything around you is swept up in it's movement... if you touch it, you're swept away... but calm at the heart.

In any art, "you do what you do"... if it depends on anything outside of yourself, it isn't an art... it's a practice. If it depends on your opponents... it's sport or self defense.
Quote:

when you master an art...you dont master the art, but rather understand how to adapt the art to you


... no, you "become" the art... and "you do what you do". You only master yourself. Outside influences are only distractions from art... be they attackers, noise in the dojo, phone calls, pagers, or anything that interrupts your "extending ki", including misconceptions. They are simply "bumps in the road"...

I could write volumes, but that is the long and short of it.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280501 - 06/06/07 02:46 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: wristtwister]
evad74 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 114
Loc: Qld, Australia
First of all,
Quote:

I hate to rain on the "kumbayah" parade





As for the rest, I think I can see what your saying, but I just took the statements differently. I think that you only get a good handle on a technique/principle once you make it yours, make it work with your strengths and weaknesses - not trying to learn/copy it exactly down to the smallest angle the way someone else is doing it. Everyones different. I went to a school one time were the sensei walked around with a clipboard putting it up to peoples arms to make sure there was a PERFECT right angle at the elbow...c'mon, get over yourself(not you).

Quote:

Quote:
The heart is to adapt to the moment.




"the moment" is what it is all about. The art "is" the moment.




I think that the ability to adapt to a situation or changing conditions is something that should be at the center of your training, no sense trying to think about "techniques" that you know - but train to go with what's happening. Similar to what you said about a good eye poke changing your plans.

As far as the "At the end, it depends on the situation and the people fighting", I think that any X vs Y thread could be answered this way. Situation = street/ring with rules. People = skilled/average/poor or agressive/passive.

Just my opinion, though I have to admit I didn't read every post in this thread so I may have taken it out of context.

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