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#280477 - 04/27/07 11:20 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sandan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

all the doormen i teach are fairly big lads the biggest been 6" 8"




A person would have to be a fool to mess with a 6 to 8 inch doorman.

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#280478 - 05/25/07 05:06 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sl000w]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
To the original poster... there are a couple of reasons why you won't see many aikidokas responding to a challenge, and the idea that it goes against the spirit of aiki is a legitimate one. Let it not be said however that any are against defending themselves or their art. But the fact is, in order to really show another martial practitioner the effectiveness through sparring, aikido has to be pretty darn brutal. Steven Segal movie brutal

The idea that Aikido allows you to subdue your opponent without hurting them is a nice friendly idea, but not necessary. Yes, it gives you the option to put them in nikkyo and walk them out of a building - it also gives you the option of performing a kote-gaishi that could break their wrist. (Actually, that's usually why a kote-geishi looks to be a throw. It doesn't so much throw the uke as it makes the uke think - if I don't throw myself I'll have a broken wrist)

The founder of my school (Suenaka Sensei) opened the first successful aikido dojo on Okinawa - which had him defending the art against high ranking karate students regularly. He never lost, and actually gained a few native students after he defeated them. If you hear his stories, boy it was brutal - broken bones were not uncommon. Some of his stories can be found in his book - and are remarkably fun to read. (Most of the aikido articles on this site are by him and you can find info about the book there if'n ya care)

So why don't aikido students compete? I don't know for sure, but I have a theory... You can't defeat a competent martial artist with pain alone (aikido moves not being likely to knock someone out in the traditional manner). Hit them with a nikkyo and they will probably get back up and keep coming - you'll have to disable (seriously injure) them. Start throwing around someone who isn't used to ukemi and you could permanently hurt them. As much fun as it might be to put another guy in their place, it's more aiki to ignore them.

But you can do a search on YouTube (and the like) and find a few exhibition matches here and there. Basically though, it's because Aikido isn't a competition art and is NOT safe to practice as one.

Quote:

It should be said that traditional aikido does not have any katas for kicks.



That's not technically true, O Sensei was accomplished in many arts, many of which included kicking. To say that he hadn't devised a way to defend against the kicks wouldn't be accurate. If you ever ask an Aikido sensei this question (and I don't really recommend it) you'll find that there are plenty of techniques for kicks - they just are not shown often. From my limited experience, I'd say it's because it hurts so darn much
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280479 - 05/25/07 08:20 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I love these conversations but I got in on this one a bit late...

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#280480 - 05/26/07 05:10 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: sl000w]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Doesn't defend against kicks eh? Here are two local Aikido instructors doing an Aikido demo... This is Tomiki Aikido, defense against kicks are exactly as Kenji Tomiki taught them. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35R0xmA5VOM
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#280481 - 05/29/07 01:01 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
BodhiHuss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Greenville, SC, USA
Quote:

. . .there are plenty of techniques for kicks - they just are not shown often. From my limited experience, I'd say it's because it hurts so darn much



We have defenses for every type of kick. True, they are not practiced as much as other defenses. There are several reasons for this:
1. they hurt (as SBuddha stated)
2. proper kick defense requires proper kick execution--many people who only train Aikido are not good at kicking
3. kicks are not a very common street attack
4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?
I teach Aikido as well as Hakutsuru Karatedo at my dojo (as does Suenaka Sensei at the Hombu dojo). We practice kicks and kick defense. As a matter of fact, I was asked to do only kick defenses for one portion of my Aikido nidan test.
Quote:

It should be said that traditional aikido does not have any katas for kicks.



To the poster of this statement: What do you mean by traditional Aikido? Do you consider all Aikido taught by O'Sensei to be "traditional Aikido", or do you draw distinctions between earlier and later (pre- and post-WWII) Aikido, both taught by O'Sensei?
_________________________
James Huss, Suenaka Zenzan Dojo www.suenakazenzandojo.com

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#280482 - 05/29/07 03:22 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
I was sitting here at work, trying to come up with a good excuse to not get anything done, when the following question popped into my head...

Do other, more obviously combat oriented arts, get asked the same sort of question? Do people regularly try to challenge a kenjutsu master with similar intent? Or maybe challenge an ex-military Krav, or MCMAP expert?

I'm not suggesting that Aikido is similar to MCMAP, but that different arts have different goals. Seems to me that it'd be foolish to challenge an archer to sporting hand-to-hand. Has anyone noticed this as well?

I'm also curious what people feel about another thing. I've tried a few other arts besides Aikido - dabbled being the operative word - and I've never had a problem showing others the cool thing I just learned. I can honestly say though, that I've never tried to show others a full Aikido technique, for fear of hurting them. To me it seems different to show a karate style arm bar to someone than it is to show a Kaiten Nage. If I show an arm bar I can show the block and the break and they usually get it. When I show an Aikido move I usually take them close to the throw and then say "if I had done this faster (and correctly ) you would be on the ground now". Sometimes they get it (friends who understand physics usually do get it) and sometimes they don't. Maybe I'm too nice to my friends! Do other Aikido peeps share my reluctance to demonstrate their art (aside from inviting friends to visit your class)?

Quote:

4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?



Ha ha ha ha ha! I never thought of that!
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280483 - 05/29/07 09:18 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: SBudda]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

Do other, more obviously combat oriented arts, get asked the same sort of question?






obviously more combat oriented arts

Like what?... nuclear warfare?...

I don't know where you've practiced Aikido, but it's always been plenty combat oriented as far as I know, and it's very telling to say something like that. You need to step up your practice a few notches and get in there and practice with a few "slammers"... then come back and tell everybody how mild Aikido is.

Start with the stuff that doesn't hurt, and work your way up... then come back in about 20 years and ask that same question. Pick a few guys with 2nd or 3rd dan to practice with and tell them to "turn it loose", so you can get the full view of your arse as your head goes past it.

... more combat oriented arts

Best of luck... you'll need it.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280484 - 05/30/07 10:30 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: wristtwister]
SBudda Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/07
Posts: 46
Loc: ATL
Quote:

Like what?... nuclear warfare?...

I don't know where you've practiced Aikido, but it's always been plenty combat oriented as far as I know




I agree, I'm not trying to say that Aikido isn't combat effective. Only that arts taught to soldiers are often of a more - how do you say - final in nature. I read that when Suenake sensei was in Vietnam he modified the waza that he taught because he was teaching soldiers how to fight for their life. By combat oriented I simply mean an art specifically designed to kill the other person before they kill you. Sure, aikido could do that nicely, but it's not the intent of the art (I don't think...).

Does that make more sense? I was actually trying to establish an equilavency between being a bad idea to challenge a Krav master or an Aikido master because neither has competitive rules that they train themselves to follow.

Say what you want; to a person who has never been uke before Aikido doesn't look as combat effective as an elbow to the face. So when I said more combat oriented arts, I simply meant from the perspective of someone like that. I'm luckly enough to uke for a yondan twice a week (he takes it easy on me though - thank god!) so rest assured I didn't mean to insult!
_________________________
I have never made but one prayer to God..."O Lord make my enemies ridiculous" And God granted it.

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#280485 - 05/30/07 11:52 AM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: BodhiHuss]
howard Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 43
Loc: Clifton NJ
Quote:

3. kicks are not a very common street attack




Hmmm... I've seen them used in several street and bar fights. Certainly frequently enough for me to want to know some basic defenses against them.

btw, those were nice kick defenses in that clip.

Quote:

4. ever try to kick someone wearing a hakama?




Actually, yes. Provided that the hakama is not too long, it's really not difficult. The leg of the hakama will usually come up over your foot, toward your ankle.

If you can walk in the hakama confortably, and it's not too long for you if you use it for any type of Iaido, I don't think you'll have too much trouble kicking while wearing one.

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#280486 - 05/30/07 01:50 PM Re: Aikido vs any fighting art [Re: howard]
Hagakure Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 86
Loc: Detroit
Im loving this, you should redirect yourselves to my favorites site http://www.bullshido.net/
You would have a ball there
_________________________
I am my enemies sadness and sorrow

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