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#280427 - 08/22/06 04:56 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: cxt]
Robaikido Offline

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
You see, you thinking I'm being an ass by bring these point up, but with me putting points across that you lot dont like, I'm getting pretty good answers. Wrist twister, you've almost answered my first question, when I said why dont people challenge, well, you just said you do, to other people from other clubs and arts. That is what I would love my old club to do, win or lose, its the fun of trying to get these difficult techniques to work with someone who doesnt know how to take the correct ukemi. You've prob noticed that a beginner reacts to a technique alot like someone from outside aikido would, which is why training with other arts would be so benefical. Obviously people you train agaisnt from karate etc have a different view of aikido than alot of other people do, as you are challenging them, for the benefit of your art and theres, I just with I could find a club like that.

To other point I brought up which you didn't like, unrealistic attacks, adranaline response, telegraphed attacks, you answer all these negative point by do what your doing in cross training with other arts, I can see now why you were getting so annoyed , the clubs I have been to, although one 1 was very aggressive, with 1 6'7'' 3rd kyu having his skull cracked by a 4th dans iriminage, the club is still very traditional, and cross training as you mentioned is never even thought of. Out of interest, how do you get off agaisnt these other arts, what do you find difficult and what do you find effective?

Edited by Robaikido (08/22/06 05:09 AM)

#280428 - 08/22/06 05:28 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 921
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
From what I have read in this thread,

I understand that as Aikidoka there is a 'misunderstanding' as to how the 'uke' will attack. I wouldn't step forward to give a backfist stike, I wouldn't lunge forward for a front kick either. I use Sabaki in all my defences. To be able to defend again a strike one must be able to understand the mechanics of a strike.
I suppose that Hapkido or Aiki-Jutsu are the intermidiates between the striking arts and Aikido, they take the best from both and blend them. so they therefore have a greater understanding on how one would balance their 'Hara' in and attack so therefore would be better adapted to defend against it.

Your reponse please

A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.


#280429 - 08/22/06 10:28 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Nope, don't think your an "ass."

I do think you would have been better served by taking a few minutes and thinking your questions through PRIOR to asking them AGAIN.
If you had, the answers would have come to you.

So, its a questions of "club" not art---as you suggest above.

I think Ellis Amdur put it the best in one his books---where he said (my paraphrase)

"If your not willing to give an art all that you have---then the fault lies not with the art now does it?"

Most folks assume that an art is going to give them everything they might need for self-defense---which only holds true if YOUR willing to give the art everything YOU have.

Edited by cxt (08/22/06 10:33 AM)

#280430 - 08/22/06 06:36 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: cxt]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
CXT, I meant to hit Robaikido's post reply... (sorry)

In the age of "instant everything", martial arts are different. They take the same amount of time to become proficient for almost everyone, and how skilled you are is the measure of dedication, practice, and instruction... not one of the arts I've practiced in 43 years has been learned overnight or been an "instant fix" for some perceived attack.

Skills take time and practice. They take careful study of what you're doing, and consistent and "live" attacks of different types to learn to adjust the technique to different styles, arts, and sizes of attackers.

It isn't the art's problem if you're crappy at doing techniques, and if your school has problems, you need to find instruction that "measures up" to teaching you proficiently... and it doesn't take hachidan rank to be able to walk into a martial arts school and tell if people know what they're doing... but by the same token, you can't take yellow belts and tell me that an art's full of crap because it doesn't provide an instant fix for your holes in self defense.

Every art has some training techniques, some fighting techniques, and some techniques that are designed to teach whatever principles the art is based on. Loading up on an MTV attitude about martial arts doesn't make you right about your opinions regarding how effective martial arts are versus some other art. Their effectiveness is determined in the dojos and in application on the street in self defense situations...

Nobody's invincible, and nobody "has it all"... and a "weak moment" in your defense can make the most mediocre player look like Bruce Lee if you drop your guard or lose your concentration... so before you challenge the arts as being suspect, take a look in the mirror. If you aren't wearing a black belt, reserve judgement for a while. When you're wearing one that's 5th or 6th dan, you can start looking for holes in the arguments. Until then, you should be doing as you're told... smiling, and bowing humbly as you back away...

Edited by wristtwister (08/22/06 06:37 PM)
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#280431 - 08/22/06 08:11 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Dobbersky]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city

From what I have read in this thread ... I understand that as Aikidoka there is a 'misunderstanding' as to how the 'uke' will attack.

A good aikidoka will take the time, if need be, to research what constitutes a good punch, kick, or other attacking technique and apply that learning to his/her training. A good teacher, in my opinion, will also encourage and model this behavior, taking time to teach the elements of good "uke-ship" in this regard. Clearly, movements in class are going to be stylized to some degree in order to impart the principles of the art--but learning these requires a certain amount of creative inquiry as well as the virtues of patience and close attention. As eyrie's pointed out, the goods are "hidden" in plain view. Sadly, too many aikido students--let alone would-be critics with only a superficial acquaintance--fail to appreciate what's right in front of their noses. But then, if ya really wannit, ya gotta work it, eh!
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

#280432 - 08/22/06 09:05 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: kunin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Like anything else, a good attack has to be practiced as well as the technique to defend against it. As you said, the good players will research and learn how to punch, kick, and strike so that they can give you "something to work with".

Nothing is more irritating than to attempt to "defend" yourself against someone who offers no threat with their attack... in both jujutsu and aikido, it's like trying to make a milk shake out of water... there's nothing to work with.

A comedian I once heard used to say he was against guns because so many people committed suicide with them... but he never heard of many people who beat themselves to death with a stick...

If you have to be both the attacker and the defender, it takes a lot out of the practice.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#280433 - 08/23/06 03:58 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: EvilKi]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia

Wrist your response actually made me laugh out loud here, reminds me of the first time I attended an aikido class, and I asked a smaller guy smaller than me and im 5'7 140lbs how effective is it in comparison to live arts such as judo boxing grappling all arts i participate in regularly. We sparred and what started out as a soft rotation turned into a very abrupt and hard wrist lock straight to the mat, from then on all i had was enormous respect for aikido. This is coming from someone who pracitces live sports or whatever rob wishes to call them, trust me aikido has its place, especially with the right individual.

My experience was slightly different...

I am an aikido-ka true and true. I wanted to find out if my aikido work. I went to a judo dojo and tried to check how how much I know my aikido. I did not get to spar with the teacher, because he wanted me to spar with a brown belt first.

I proceeded, and the brown belt owned me with a superb morote seoi-nage.I was stunned for many minutes, he had to help me off the mat as the fall really stunned my back, I could not walk at first. Damn, brown belt guy did not attack me with shomen-uchi. Who in right's mind attack by grabbing both lapel, it is not ' realistic' at all... In hind-sight I should have stopped him and scold him for attacking me wrongly.

Well, to the original poster, I tried, and failed. Forgive me.


Edited by xuzen_628 (08/23/06 04:01 AM)
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

#280434 - 08/23/06 10:24 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: xuzen_628]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
When you change the rules of engagement you most likely will lose. You fight by Judos rules and Aikido loses. Just as if Karate fights by boxing rules Karate loses, Boxing by Karate rules Boxing loses. Most times.

You have to take a art a apply it your rules and make it effective, by hard training. So its the practictioner not the art.

If you asked any of the people I applied Aikido techniques on they'd tell you that it most definitely works. They would say that he almost broke whatever. Of course I've never broke anything sprained some ligaments or twisted some joints thats all. Its a vicious art, its only pretty in the dojo. I find it less vicious to KO someone then to twist or gain leverage to break their limb. Aikido is a nasty, vicious art thats the beauty in it.

As I mentioned you must make it work for you. Most of the Aikido I've been around like you was not as advance as what Wristtwister practice. I remember (when I was young) asking a Aikido Sensei (that also trained Judo) which would he use in self defense? He said his Judo training and mentioned that Aikido is an Opportunistic art less aggressive then Judo. This Aiki school also thought that Timiki Aikido bordered on Aiki-Jujitsu and was not the Aikido way, so what you think and practice is how you view your art.

Add it to what you know makes you more well rounded, no art is perfect.

My personal take is that if you add Aikido to what you already know its very effective, controlling and subdue the opponent with what LOOKS LIKE A gentle motion, rather then hitting them. But it ain't It hurts like hell.

The only difference in Jujitsu and Aikido is more body contact, more crank and less flowing with the opponents, perfect Jujitsu looks and feels like Aikido in some ways techniques. Both profess to be Gentle arts.

I see the original posters point but its because like me he and people he trained with were novices.

Edited by Neko456 (08/23/06 01:22 PM)

#280435 - 08/23/06 10:38 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5844
Loc: USA

Good post

Edited by cxt (08/23/06 10:39 AM)
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

#280436 - 08/23/06 09:31 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Neko456]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
all it takes to practice the way I do is a good attack, and an uke that spends a lot of time learning to breakfall and do ukemi to protect themselves... and strangely enough, the more and harder you throw them, the better they get.

I have a high tolerance for pain, and resist most techniques longer than others, so that also helps me to "go harder" at jujutsu and aikido. When you learn to "feel" how much force you're putting into a joint lock, etc. you can strengthen all your ukes and practice partners.

Find somebody that's dedicated, and go as hard as you can as often as you can... that's what makes "good training". You don't have to have a master instructor with you all the time, just occasionally to "oil the squeaky spots" and you can progress much further than you'd think.

I was lucky to have partners that studied with masters, and made friends with some masters in aikido and jujutsu, and it's amazing how much you learn when they see you are really going after it. All martial arts are a matter of nuances, and the more you practice, the more difference they make in what you do. IMO

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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