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#280417 - 08/21/06 01:11 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
A student unexpectly testing any art in a dojo setting is dumb, challenging it outside the dojo is crazy. What I will say about this topic is this, Aikido in self defense maynot look like movie or dojo Aikido, they have strikes and any person versed in self defense will beat you with whats available. They may end it by breaking your arm or neck but they will hurt you first with whatevers open. It may not look like Segal movies, it may just be a haito to the grion that turns into a throw or a stomp.

What do you mean Aikido immobilize its opponent without hurting??? You are immobilized because your spine is fractured, you are not hurting because you are dead.

Don't believe the rhetoric of whats heard, visit a high level class. All though pretty throws don't happen like that in streets. The times I've used those pretty wrist locks or arms bars, on the street the person that I grabbed after hitting them, didn't float in the air, they drops on his knees and screamed, some pee'd their pants, they'd raggeily, falls on his face, screamed while dancing on his toes, or they would, do the leg flop, while flat on his face, screaming "Arggh my God, you are breaking my f$%%ing arm"!!! Aikido even my weak Aikido HURTS and it ain't pretty. What are you talking about. I'm far from an Aikido expert.

Aikido ain't pretty on the REAL, its vicious, nasty, ugly, bone breaking, joint wrenching stuff!!! Imagine purposely breaking someone arm, knee or neck, feeling it break.
Not much different then Jujitsu sparring wise somethings work just, because they work, sorta like science.

Gentle Art, my a$$!!


Edited by Neko456 (08/21/06 01:29 AM)
_________________________
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#280418 - 08/21/06 01:37 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
jonnyboxcutter Offline
Member

Registered: 08/11/06
Posts: 320
So lets recap…

Board don’t hit back
TKD is for sport only
Kungfu is too flowery

And now
Aikido is Rubbish

I love the smell of ignorance in the morning…

Honestly this sounds like the student that asks questions like “what would you do if I snuck up behind you and hit you in the head with a bat?”

Or never does what they are told in class cuz they want to see if you “know” what you are doing.

Wristtwister, I only wish I had a quality school of Aikido in my area. We have nothing available

-JBC-
_________________________
-- -JBC-

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#280419 - 08/21/06 07:49 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: jonnyboxcutter]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 905
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I see Aikido as the ultimate Art and I believe takes the strongest willed practitioners. I always believe that we should not degrade or be disrespectful to other 'Ryu'(Styles) as we should expect 'Repect' to our arts from other MA's

I did try Aikido, but the hall was too small for the amount of people in and they were mixing DANs with the beginners like me. I was finding some discrepancies in the techniques probably from the fact that it was against what I would do in reality as Karateka. The defence from the strikes where the attacker was already off balance, This wouldn't happen to karateka or the throw from a guiding of a wrist grab where I would just let go and try something else in reality.

Although I have practiced many styles previous and I teach/study Ashihara Karate and study Wado Ryu. These Aikido techniques take years to perfect I believe 8 years to First Dan. It is the pacifists way (no strikes) and I love the techniques and read many books on Aikido. Maybe when I am older and feel I do not need to use a finishing technique I will take up Aikido again.

All Martial Arts are purposeful for everyone has a different WA (harmony) to achieve as in our worklives we have different jobs so therefore we have different Ryu
_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#280420 - 08/21/06 10:49 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Dobbersky]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
First off, I trained in aikikai aikido for 2 and a half years, 2 clubs i attended, there was a 3rd but i found it too much training, seeing as I was already training 5-6 times a week. I'm 5'11 and 15 stone, or 96kg to be exact from a power/weight lifting background. Dont get me wrong, as I've said before, I'm not lookin for an argument, but I left aikido for jujutsu for several reasons. The people in the class had no aggression, which meant crap attacks that needed no defence. I was told I had to roll!!!! Fair enough if a technique is done correctly then I am thrown, but to be told I had to roll, when I could have easily stood up on the technique, and that was a 4th dan. The 2 instructors I had were 4th and 5th dans, but from what I saw the way aikido is practised is mostly at fault, I'd love to go to an aikido class where all kinds of attacks are dealt with, not just shomen, which has almost no use! yokumen, yea ok a bit more fun but never realistic, and the tsuki, which to be fair, is not how any1 in the world punches. I asked a member of the class to do an exercise with me, when we had some spare time. He was pretty good, a 1st kyu aikikai, I said 'right, stand in front of me, and I'll attack you, I said that it could be anything, and he agreed'. what I found was that instead of trying to react to me or move off the line etc, he was simply expecting an attack, which meant if the attack he was expecting didn't come, then he was hit.

People who say I'll break your neck spine etc your kidding yourselves, if you truely believe that, your going to find yourselves wondering how your in hospital if you try to use what you know. Call me an idiot doesnt bother me in the slightest, all I am doing is putting across some opinions and experiences I have had, if you dont like them then there must be some truth in them

I have trained with some very aggressive people, and yes, they can bury your head in the mat, but thats in an aikido setting, with aikido attacks and with me performing ukemi, which means basically that I am letting him throw me. I just dont think it would be so clean and easy in a realistic situation, prove me wrong.

And as you mentioned, immobilised but unhurt means that they cannot move, example a floor pin, but unhurt, if you didnt understand the first time


Edited by Robaikido (08/21/06 10:52 AM)
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Rob

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#280421 - 08/21/06 12:37 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Neko said
Quote:

Aikido ain't pretty on the REAL, its vicious, nasty, ugly, bone breaking, joint wrenching stuff!!! Imagine purposely breaking someone arm, knee or neck, feeling it break.
Not much different then Jujitsu sparring wise somethings work just, because they work, sorta like science.

Gentle Art, my a$$!!





I'd love to be able to transport you to the real world, but you have this fantasy based on very minimal experience with obviously either unskilled or unwilling people who don't do much hard training. My world has been exceptionally different from that, and I've trained with the best. If you think you'll "roll out" of one of my techniques, it's a misperception on your part.

What you don't understand clearly is that when I do a technique, "I" am in control of it... not the uke. I allow them to roll out of techniques to prevent injuring them... in self defense, they better have good skills because that nice big roll they have planned is going to be pointed straight down and the idea that you can protect yourself with ukemi skills is the best laugh I've had this morning.

When it comes to understanding what you're doing,... what Neko said...

There aren't any mats on the street... and one of those techniques done with concrete sidewalks is a little more "explosive" than when the aikidoka allows someone to roll out on the mats in a dojo. In the dojo, I'm not going to intentionally dislocate your joints like I will on the street, or break your ribs before throwing you... so you REALLY don't understand much about aikido. Two years training is about orange or blue belt level, and you have about 18 more years before you even begin to understand irimi... so please don't lecture us on your profound knowledge of the weaknesses of aikido and how you're having to go find something that can "hurt someone".

If you ever get to South Carolina, you call me and we'll go work out with some people who will give you a whole new concept in self-preservation. I don't have to put you in the hospital to be able to do so, and your assessments of aikido technique are without any basis of depth of knowledge.

Sorry you've had such a bad experience and been forced to train with people who don't want to train realistically... but just because your experience hasn't been a good one doesn't make the art suspect, just the players involved in your training.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280422 - 08/21/06 01:07 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: wristtwister]
Robaikido Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/04
Posts: 158
Loc: Wales
I'm sure there are people out there that can use aikido for effective self defense, you may be one of them. Its just certain aspects of it give it a disadvantage. Let me give you my views, and as you say you are more experienced you can tell me otherwise.

1. Attacks arent realistic, you know what attack is coming, you are practising kata which is a pre-known movement, also the shomen etc attacks are not common street attacks, why dont you add things like haymakers and so forth to your classes. Things like rugby tackles, haymakers, close attacks such as headbutts would be more usefull to train agaisnt that shomen tsuki. Forget about coming back with maai distance, that doesnt happen when your at the bar or on a dancefloor.

2. Alot of the demonstrations I've seen, the uke will roll from and technique, whether it would really throw him or not, seeming out of politness for the nage, it happens.

3. Certain techniques such as iriminage are easy to stop, for example grabbing onto the throwers are as he is doing the technique

4. Assuming you are defending agaisnt a boxer, someone who doesnt throw all his weight behind his punches, keeping balance, how would you defend agaisnt this type of opponent.

5. No competitions = no adrenaline training. When faced with a real situation, adrenaline plays a big factor, are you going to be able to remember all of those gross motor skills and use them effectively, a factor alot of people overlook

You get my point, the problem I have with it, is that unless you go looking for trouble, there is no way to properly practice what you are learning. You may be a 5th dan, but that person may have never used his aikido for a real defence situation, and if the instance arises that he need to use it, having never faced an attacker that is coming at him to hurt him, the grade of the aikidoka suddenly is meaningless

Going back to what you were saying, you took what i said the wrong way. I didnt say i could roll out of your techniques. Quite the opposite, i said that the instructor told me to roll, when i didnt feel thrown, so i was taking ukemi rolling for what i thought was no reason. Which is what i see alot, in alot of clubs and videos you see. It seems if you dont roll for the nage, they get quite offended, which is dull because his technique doesnt work, really you are doing him a favour
_________________________
Rob

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#280423 - 08/21/06 06:56 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I have hitherto refrained from commenting but cannot do so any longer....

The point to note with Aikido (and many other systems), but in particular, Aikido, is that everything is hidden in plain view. It is up to the student to discern that which is hidden and to understand what it is that we train in, in Aikido.

1. Unrealistic attacks - define "realistic". What does "realistic" mean? What does a "realistic" attack look like? Everybody moves differently. Perhaps what we really mean by "realistic" is nothing more than mere intent to take your head off? The 3 basic attacks of shomen, yokomen and tsuki cover the entire range of generalized motion in the 3 planes - vertical, horizontal and sagital. Does it matter that the attack happens to come attached to an arm? Or perhaps a weapon? Or perhaps a whole body?

2. Ukemi - granted, many simply fall or roll for the sake of performing their role as uke, because of a lack of understanding of the purpose of ukemi. On a very basic level, ukemi is an escape mechanism - from getting hit, getting thrown, having your arm broken or dislocated etc. A slightly more advanced training purpose is to develop whole body sensitivity to force. Even more advanced is its role in developing body connection and core strength. Ukemi is the more important half of Aikido and the ability to take ukemi (i.e. RECEIVE technique) teaches you HOW to correctly apply technique when the roles are reversed. Failure to understand this = failure to grasp the real purpose of doing ukemi.

3. Reversals and Counters - ALL techniques can be countered and reversed...depending on how well technique is being applied. I'm not sure I understand your point.

4. Defence against a boxer (or someone who doesn't commit) - more training? There are many different defences... pick something that works. Look outside of the rote "forms" and find freedom.

5. Competitive training and the adrenal response - If you watch professional athletes in competition, ALL of them understand the intense focus and concentration required to perform at that high level. You don't see them getting the willies, heebie-jeebies and butterflies in the stomach do you? Why should that be any different in martial arts (or self-defence), where it's a life and death situation? Why would competition be even necessary, given that the point of the training is to develop similar skills in focus and concentration, specifically for the purpose of "tricking" the body to override the adrenal response?

I'm afraid I don't get your point. It seems clear that you have limited training as well as a limited perspective and understanding of what it is that you are supposed to be training.

So, rather than impose your biased perceptions of what the art SHOULD be, perhaps it would be wise to BROADEN your understanding of the art?

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#280424 - 08/21/06 06:57 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

1. Attacks arent realistic, you know what attack is coming, you are practising kata which is a pre-known movement, also the shomen etc attacks are not common street attacks, why dont you add things like haymakers and so forth to your classes. Things like rugby tackles, haymakers, close attacks such as headbutts would be more usefull to train agaisnt that shomen tsuki. Forget about coming back with maai distance, that doesnt happen when your at the bar or on a dancefloor.





Well, shomen attacks aren't designed to be "realistic"... they're designed to teach you something about movements and blending with them. They are also designed to teach you timing for such techniques as irimi, and that infamous ma-ai that you disdain so much... which by the way is the most important thing you need to learn. It isn't "being at the proper ma-ai that throws most people, it's knowing how to get to the proper ma-ai, and it doesn't always involve stepping back, up, or sideways... sometimes it's as simple as turning your body out of the path of a punch or strike. From there, you can adjust your technique to suit your attack.

Quote:

2. Alot of the demonstrations I've seen, the uke will roll from and technique, whether it would really throw him or not, seeming out of politness for the nage, it happens.





The purpose of many techniques is to lead someone to a point where it makes more sense (or is safer) for them to roll out of a technique than to resist it, so I won't disagree with you on this... only your understanding of it. I can promise you that any demo I did with you, you'd feel blessed for an opportunity to roll out of the technique before you got the full blast of it. "Politeness" wouldn't have anything to do with it...

Quote:

3. Certain techniques such as iriminage are easy to stop, for example grabbing onto the throwers are as he is doing the technique





I've been told that before... so by adjusting my technique, the last guy who told me that's funeral is Friday... Of course you can interfere with blending and intercepting techniques... the adjustments you make is where the skill is found, and irimi leaves more opportunities than you can stop by grabbing someone. If you grab me, I'll simply change to another technique to influence you not to try it again...

Quote:

4. Assuming you are defending agaisnt a boxer, someone who doesnt throw all his weight behind his punches, keeping balance, how would you defend agaisnt this type of opponent.





Not every technique works for every situation... that's why they call it practice... Most boxers can't block my aikido punches either, so does that nullify boxing? Skills are measured in effectiveness, and changing the angle of attack, energy pattern, or method of redirection can make a huge difference in how one technique works over another.

Quote:

5. No competitions = no adrenaline training. When faced with a real situation, adrenaline plays a big factor, are you going to be able to remember all of those gross motor skills and use them effectively, a factor alot of people overlook





If you're looking for competition take a rank test... with the prize being the one with the best technique gets the belt... not really...

Randori is where aikido is tested, and when you start against one opponent, it's pretty simple... two gets a little more complicated... three keeps you busy... and when you have "open randori" where anybody can come from anywhere in the dojo, it's "really interesting"...

We trained against people doing judo, aikido, boxing, karate, and jujutsu... so the attacks were whatever they decided to throw at us... standing, running, or stepping in attacks... so where is your problem with "realistic"? Of course, we didn't throw all that at yellow belts and orange belts, but "turned the burner up" as they improved in rank and grew in technique.

Quote:

the problem I have with it, is that unless you go looking for trouble, there is no way to properly practice what you are learning.




I totally disagree with that... we practiced against fighers of all kinds and all capabilities, from black belts in karate to French paratroopers and law enforcement officers... Judo players and boxers as well... If your school wasn't doing that, it's not the art's fault, it's your instructor's. We invite everyone to come show their stuff anytime, and will give them our full attention. Most of the time, it's both revealing and humbling for somebody... whether it the Aikido players or those that show up to show us up.

As for offending somebody, that never bothers me. If they don't have the technique to throw me, I'm not going to bail for them and make them look good. If they have technique, I'll be bailing to unload the energy and rolling out to protect myself. If it's contentious, either one of us may not get that chance...

What you need to do is to go to the black belts and tell them to train with you and don't hold back. One of you is in for quite an education...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#280425 - 08/21/06 07:08 PM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: Robaikido]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Robaikido

In the 1st place topics that start with "X vs X" are pretty much looked on around here as a waste of time.

In answer to your questions.

An art is only as good as the person that is using it.
Don't people just "suck" at your dojo??
Are not some folks just really good?

You ever tried to "rugby tackle" your teacher or an advamced rank?
How did that work???

See, its not the art that matters--just matters whom is using it.
Some folks are killers and some folks could be armed with a bazooka and not be all that dangerous.

There is no such thing as an utterly "realistc" art.
Training and competions MUST have rules--for the saftey of the people working out and the folks competing.
So you don't step into the boxing ring and expect to get kicked in the groin you don't step into the MMA ring and expect somebody to stab you with a hidden knife.
Both could easily happen "on the street."

Ah, the keyword is "demo" there oh bright one.
LOTS of things happen in "demo" that are less then "real."
If it ws 100 percent "real" they woud cal it a "life and death" match not a "demo"

Nope, you change the response and the guy doing it changes TOO.
The iriminage not working? Use an atemi to the face--really hard--then do something else.

Defend vs a boxer???
Ok, lets play "lets pretend"
How would "boxer" defeat a guy with a knife?
How about a guy with a gun?
How about 3 guys with pipes??
A couple of pretty girls with a boxcutters?

My best advice is to train harder---or simply quit aikido if it does not do for you what you want.

Getting on-line and BMW (thats bitching, moaning, and whineing) about whatever "shortcomings" you "think" you see in aikido is pretty pointless.

You ever stop to think the "problems" you have with "aikido" have more to do with your inabilty to make it work?
Or maybe with how its taught where you train??

Pretty sure that Japanese Riot Police that train in aikido kinda know more about what they are doing than you do.

Maybe they just so stupid that they never thought about it??
Maybe they should have spoken with you before setting up training 50 or so years ago?
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#280426 - 08/22/06 04:50 AM Re: Aikido vs etc [Re: cxt]
alphawolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 137
I dont have any experience with aikido, however, from what i do know it works in 2 ways. If you are bad, you are horribly bad and can't defend yourself out of a paper bag. If you're good, chances are you are amazing. Aikido is less forgiving then other arts in the technicality aspect of it. There is no room for making a mistake when executing something, or it simply wont work. I KNOW i would not want to fight against a high ranking aikidoka, because unless i am extremely quick or have amazing takedowns, i am going to get beat.
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