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#279408 - 08/15/06 02:01 PM Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both?
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Hello

I read a thread quite a while ago on the general forum about American Kenpo, and the tradition of the "Birth of pain" (from what I understand, this involves the instructor striking a student in order to prepare them for the next stage of their training).

To some, this seemed like a brutal and unneccessary practice. To others, it was seen as a part of training, something that was part of kenpo, and something that made them a better martial artist. Everyone had different views.

It got me thinking about Kyokushin. Now, let me just say, I have never studied Kyokushin or and of the Ryu's that are influenced by it, such as Enshin. But as an outsider, so to speak, I feel like it is a good jumping off point for this thread.

Do you consider Kyokushin to be brutal or beautiful, or both? By brutal, do you find it an overly physical style of karate, that is too competitive and forsakes martial spirit for martial skill? By beautiful, is it karate as it should be? Does it represent karate at its best? Does it allow true growth, in whatever sense, a karateka can obtain?
Or is it a both?

Any opinions welcome.


P.S. Just debating for debating sake really, its been slow round the forums for the past little while. I wanted to ask this before, but was unsure if folks would be interested. But in light of the slow period, I just went for it. Hope no one minds!
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#279409 - 08/15/06 04:34 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Prizewriter]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Prize...Do you consider Kyokushin to be brutal or beautiful, or both? By brutal, do you find it an overly physical style of karate, that is too competitive and forsakes martial spirit for martial skill? By beautiful, is it karate as it should be? Does it represent karate at its best? Does it allow true growth, in whatever sense, a karateka can obtain?
Or is it a both?

Neko456- I find it to be an expression of what its founder Mas Oyama wanted it to be, he thought the Ultimate Karate. It is a fight orintated Karate style that stresses contact and toughness. Is it one of the best examples of Karate maybe it is, but probably not. Is it brutal, not if you are trained for it. Is it beautiful compared to what, its application work in that I find some beauty. It is an effective form of Karate, in that you use what is effective and what will Ko the opponent.

Where is its weakness? NO HEAD CONTACT WITH THE HANDS and elbows. And the way they train and use high kicks maybe. On the street that not a good thing if used, instinctively, maybe. For Me is not practical, unless he has already been injuried/setup or really hurt bad. They kick to the head by instinct with totalling results but the great "WHAT IF" does exist, I'll stick to low line kicks on the street unless as the above stated happens. So it doesn't really just cross over into the street but it could, with all their other weapons.

In open and full contact competition the lack of training or concern for blocking their head from hand assaults cost them dearly. But there is no doubting their power if they hit you clean. The limited use of various effective hand combos also hurts them imho.

Is it a good starting point, most certainly a powerful one, if you are into that its even beautiful. Is it the Ultimate Karate not with the lack of head contact with hands and elbows.


Edited by Neko456 (08/15/06 05:05 PM)
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#279410 - 08/15/06 06:56 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Prizewriter]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.


Quote:

Do you consider Kyokushin to be brutal or beautiful, or both?



neither.
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#279411 - 08/16/06 11:42 AM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Prizewriter]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Prize,

Karate is karate...and sometimes it's not. It's in the style and in the individuals who practice the various incarnations of this art.

Kyokushin has some very neat training, but is it the end-all? Nah! I have taken one class of Kyokushin, per invitation by a buddy who was practing there. I have demoed with one of the higher ranks in Kyokushin and I study a Kyokushin derivative style.

Is it better? No. Can it be beautiful. Yes, exceedingly so. Are there benefits and detriments to the art? You betcha.

It ain't what you study or call it, though stylisitic integrity comes to mind, it's how you train and personally practice it that really matters.

-B

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#279412 - 08/16/06 12:17 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Neko.

Could you please use the quote funtion? Reading your posts is like reading a movie script and kind of confusing third personish...

Thanks!
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#279413 - 08/16/06 04:52 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: BrianS]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'll work on that, its hard to separate the paragraphs with the quote function, but if I must I will. Theres alway a learning curve isn't it.
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#279414 - 08/16/06 04:56 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Neko456]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Heck...I still haven't figured out how folks insert quotes from 2 different posts. And I know I'm the only mod that doesn't know how to use the picture option.

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#279415 - 08/17/06 11:39 AM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: harlan]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Harlan you have a way of making me feel better about not knowing and understanding that I'm not the only one that needs to learn somethings. I'll try using the qoute function, the more I do it the better I might get.

Speaking in 3rd person sometimes make people think you have a ego problem, which we do not.

Oyama's Karate is solid Karate. But you gotta learn/train how to block your head from punches!!!


Edited by Neko456 (08/17/06 11:41 AM)
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#279416 - 08/24/06 06:23 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Prizewriter]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi there.

Is Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? The practioners might be. But what exactly is true Kyokushin?

These are my thoughts..

Does it represent karate at its best?

Not sure

I think both martial skill and martial spirit are represented at least the way I understand it.

What they do in competition requires skill, stamina, and the ability to fight.
They in the main have well developed kicking techniques.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7451855325156546591&q=kyokushin


I trained with Kyokushin guys and read some things about Mas Oyamas thoughts/techniques years ago and I think he incorporated some very efficient hand striking methods. Particular punching.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=8792250998730606001&q=kyokushin


I agree with Neko in some respects . Also there might be an apparant lack of grappling skills in the syllabus?
Again not to sure on that one.

From what I read the founder didint rate grappling?.
But I only read that therefore I am not qualified to state that.

Again im not sure if grappling does exist in Kyokushin?
Grappling exists in the Bubishi. Exists in kata. Therefore the defence should also exist


http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8536219474299326646&q=Kyokushin

If this guy trained in Kyokushin I have no idea. But if fighting is the game then a person should be prepared to the best of their ability for most encounters.

My conclusion is :
I think it is down to the individual karate ka not the style.

and again
what exactly is true Kyokushin?



Thanks

Andy


Edited by ANDY44 (08/24/06 08:29 PM)

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#279417 - 09/22/06 10:04 PM Re: Kyokushin - Brutal, beautiful, or both? [Re: Prizewriter]
TheFinalOption Offline
Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 55
Loc: Colorado
It is certainly the most entertaining karate (or even MA?) to watch, in my opinion...but I like watching stuff with lots of kicks...so thats just me

I think that Kyokushin is very good, but I also agree that its lack of headshots is a very telling flaw. I therefore think that Kyokushin CAN be a total system, if the karatekas take it upon themselves to practice head punching techniques remedially (like I do.) It certainly seems to incorporate a level of physical contact and toughness usually only seen in the likes of offical Muai Thai fights.
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