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#278522 - 11/23/06 04:44 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
with all your talk of "aliveness" and dead training methods you sound just like a matt thornton clone.

it's not to say that any fighter couldn't train "combat" rather than "sport". of course they could.

matt hughes is an elite sport fighter, and if he wanted to make the switch i'm sure he'd be an elite "combat" fighter.

let me ask you one question. we'll take a technique your familiar with; double leg tkae down.

how do you apply that for combat as oppoesed to sport?

and lastly, you're out of your mind if you don't know how powerful training habits are.

quick ex.

2 cops who trained on a shooting range where the officer in charge was pedantic about keeping the place clean got into a shootout.

the officer in charge of the range demanded officers pick up thier shell casings and keep them in thier pockets.

after these two cops got killed, guess what they found in thier pockets when they got the bodies? that's right, spent brass.

they'd spent so much time remembering to pick up brass rather than reload, that's what they did in a LIFE AND DEATH situation.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#278523 - 11/23/06 05:52 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ashe_higgs wrote:
Quote:

with all your talk of "aliveness" and dead training methods you sound just like a matt thornton clone.





Forget about who said it, Aliveness is just commone sense and is nothing new.


Quote:


it's not to say that any fighter couldn't train "combat" rather than "sport". of course they could.

matt hughes is an elite sport fighter, and if he wanted to make the switch i'm sure he'd be an elite "combat" fighter.





The implication here is subtle and absurd. Do you know Matt Hughes personally?? Do you feel you could take him?


Quote:


let me ask you one question. we'll take a technique your familiar with; double leg tkae down.

how do you apply that for combat as oppoesed to sport?





I wouldn't perform a double leg take down in either circumstance. Timing would be the primary factor if I DID however and technically speaking, there are several variations to chose from. If I DID chose to hit a double, I'd probably do a slide-by.

What is YOUR opinion on the double leg?

Quote:


and lastly, you're out of your mind if you don't know how powerful training habits are.





I understand them completely and is the reason behind my statement about aliveness earlier. Do you agree with that or not, you haven't said. You have also not bothered to describe any of YOUR training methods. Why don't you do so now? Tell us how you train, style, etc


Quote:


2 cops who trained on a shooting range where the officer in charge was pedantic about keeping the place clean got into a shootout.

the officer in charge of the range demanded officers pick up thier shell casings and keep them in thier pockets.

after these two cops got killed, guess what they found in thier pockets when they got the bodies? that's right, spent brass.

they'd spent so much time remembering to pick up brass rather than reload, that's what they did in a LIFE AND DEATH situation.





I call bullsh*t again with your story. Could be true, no way of really knowing. Either way, anyone can be stupid, and anyone can be inexperienced. I just don't buy into much of what you're saying in this specific situation.

But please, do go on and tell us how much better your methods are than the rest of us here who take the stupid approach and train athletically.



-John

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#278524 - 11/23/06 10:31 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
By the way, only NOW have I seen the video clip at the top of this thread. I dislike "demos" of this sort. Didn't anyone have some good competition video to place there instead? What's up with all these demos? Is that video reflective of standard practice?


-John

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#278525 - 11/23/06 06:26 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
eh, i'm tired of you already.

i never said "your way" of training was bad mr. thorntan, just that there was a difference between sport and "combat" or self defense or whatever you want to call it.

never said my way was best, just best for me. all training has it's limits, drawbacks and strong points.

the story about the two cops came via pavel tsatsouline BTW, sorry that it's inconvenient for you. i'd cite it, but i don't feel like digging through all of his books to see exactly which one and where.
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#278526 - 11/23/06 09:36 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

eh, i'm tired of you already.





You tired of me because I was making counter points.


Quote:


i never said "your way" of training was bad mr. thorntan,





You’re really not insulting me, though you’re trying. Anyone with half a brain embraces the concept of aliveness. Whatever you want to call it is irrelevant. Aliveness is a convenient name to describe a quality and approach of one’s training. You’ve never said whether you agreed with that philosophy or not. You simply want to avoid that issue it appears.


Quote:

just that there was a difference between sport and "combat" or self defense or whatever you want to call it.





I understand your point. I don’t entirely disagree with you but, I DO think you’re missing a very key point somewhere along the way.


Quote:


never said my way was best, just best for me. all training has it's limits, drawbacks and strong points.





But you HAVE implied it.


Quote:


the story about the two cops came via pavel tsatsouline BTW, sorry that it's inconvenient for you. i'd cite it, but i don't feel like digging through all of his books to see exactly which one and where.




Everyone has stories. I can share stories with you as well. Stories that come from cops and others who’ve been there and done it. What does it matter and what does it prove? Not a damned thing. Not two situations are going to ever go the same way.

You’ve still managed to avoid describing your training philosophy and program, but I’m thinking that was probably intentional.

You also not responded about the “double leg take-down” point you brought up. I did, but you dropped it like a stone as you have with other points like the question; DO you understand WHY people choose to clinch and take folks to the ground in a fight?


Again, I don’t entirely disagree with some of the things you said. I just believe you’ve not considered every possible angle to your basic premise.



-John

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#278527 - 11/24/06 03:40 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
"bull$hit" is not a counter point.

everyone needs to work on timing, distance, etc. those are skills which can really only be refined through two person, real time, uncooperative drills. (san da, kumite, sparring, etc.)

you only assumed i implied something.

in the words of the great john wang, concerning the difference between takedowns for sport and for "combat";

"if i like you, you get to fall on your back. if i don't like you, you get to land on your head"

in the double leg example, in a sport setting you wouldn't and wouldn't want to stand all the way up. takes extra energy and leaves you in a bad position to transition to the mount. plus your opponents head would only be hitting canvas or mat anyway.

for "combat" you would want to lock your opponents legs tight to the armpits and stand ALL the way up.

in 99% of all street fights, most people clinch and or go for the takedown because thier opponent has better striking abilities or they're gassing.

ex. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/220359/felony_fights_5/

"dropper" dominates til he gasses and then goes for the double leg. of course, at the very least, a little shrimping would have helped his game at the end.

i apologize for saying "i'm tired of you". i should have phrased it better, but it's not fair of us to derail this guys thread with the same old argument that every MA-ist in the world has already had.


Edited by ashe_higgs (11/24/06 03:41 AM)
_________________________
falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#278528 - 12/24/06 04:05 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling alt.? [Re: 18lohans]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I recall reading and being told about, by a noted London-based Sifu, about a Chinese system which actually went to ground when attacked and defended from this position, using takedowns (or 'bring-downs').

Any ideas about this?

Found this book reference. Useful?

http://www.shouyuliang.com/books/fast_wrestling.shtml

Also: Dog boxing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcPlwAOkl6I


Edited by trevek (12/24/06 04:17 PM)
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#278529 - 02/17/07 06:22 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling alt.? [Re: 18lohans]
Peter32 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/16/07
Posts: 10
At least Chin Na can be effective when groundfighting; Shuai Chiao is throwing, which won't neccesarily work from the ground, you might be able to use some of the principle's of it though.

If you want to be able to do ground-fighting with Chin Na, then Chin Na sparring on the ground, not just on your feet. Almost all the sparring I do with Chin Na ends up on the ground, and a lot of it is very effective there.

It's all about how you train it.

That being said; I don't think I'd want to ground-fight with a BJJ guy. They'll have a lot more experience ground-fighting then I ever will.

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