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#278512 - 11/20/06 08:14 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

That quote "stand & dominate" pretty much describe the Chinese view of things. They revolved around striking and staying on their feet. They learn takedowns and such but just because the opponent falls to the ground doesnt mean you have to follow him. You can continue the fight fine without having to go to the ground. Or maybe the Chinese just never though of it.





Or perhaps the Chinese just havenít had a lot of dealings with competent wrestlers.


It was also stated by ashe_higgs that

Quote:

if eye gouges and samll joint manipulation were legal, fighters would be A LOT more hesitant to go to the ground. when your tied up like that, it's virtually impossible to protect yourself from that kind of an attack.





Again this would depend on factors such as skill, etc.

Those statements also indicate a certain ignorance as to what MMA and BJJ are all about. Things such as positional control and tie ups are just either forgotten about totally or were never thought of to begin with.

People should study with competent grapplers and try these attacks out first hand instead of merely hypothesizing about them.


-John

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#278513 - 11/20/06 10:46 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Quote:

Or perhaps the Chinese just havenít had a lot of dealings with competent wrestlers.



"Or maybe the Chinese just never though of it"
well thats what i meant, if you never encounter it or think about it, then it will never come about
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#278514 - 11/21/06 12:04 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: IExcalibui2]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Hmm...don't the chinese and the mongolians have quite some fighting history? and from what I know (not much), the mongolians pride themselves on shuai jiao. no, they don't follow the enemy once thrown... but that should at least make them very hard to take down? Also, with that in mind, doesn't that mean the Chinese HAVE encountered wrestler types?

now, if the mongolians thing was not enough an argument, there is just no way no japanese ever went back to china or that no chinese ever went to japan, yes?

BJJ, MMA have strong roots on japanese arts, right? I haven't studied any of the japanese ground arts to know for a fact, but the little judo I did as a kid tells me that the japanese have NOT ignored ground fighting, as most my sparring sessions/matches WERE spent on the ground.

So, unless I'm wrong about either japanese and chinese martial artists having met each other, or that japanese arts do practice ground fighting... I think teh Chinese HAVE seen, thought, and experienced fights on the ground. So maybe not going to the ground in most traditional chinese arts was a matter of considering multiple opponents?

Now, try to keep calm when reading my next question, and remember that this is from someone with little ground experience.

So, out of curiosity and respect for all the ground guys here, I decided to get couple my kung fu bros and wrestling a bit, before I asked more questions. Some of them have MMA/BJJ experience and some of them have school wrestling expereince, some just don't.

While I must admit I felt a bit hopeless on the ground, and clueless about what is a good position for myself, and get out of holds/locks, I must say I saw a lot of room for like, sucker punches, and even groin kneeing/kicking.

Question is, do I just have a misconception when it comes to striking on the ground? Again, all I know is from judo, where strikes are inexistent, and all other stuff I've seen is from some UFC, where people keep slowly but steadily striking at ribs, etc.

Basically, I really feel that one good shot to the face or something would at least made them let go for a second, which is what I need to get out. Is this similar to how a stand up guy worries about a good flinch or kick to the thigh could be all it takes to make me forget my balance for a second, leading to a nice shoot or take down? Or is it that same argument as in the shooting thread (hope I don't start a flame war), where it's more difficult than it seems to land a good shot in?
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"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#278515 - 11/21/06 08:01 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: 18lohans]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
18lohans wrote:

Quote:

Hmm...don't the Chinese and the Mongolians have quite some fighting history? and from what I know (not much), the Mongolians pride themselves on Shuai jiao. no, they don't follow the enemy once thrown... but that should at least make them very hard to take down? Also, with that in mind, doesn't that mean the Chinese HAVE encountered wrestler types?





A long history of fighting (and who doesnít have one of those?) and a kung fu version of judo doesnít exactly equate to wrestling. History doesnít factor into whether I can fight on the ground or not and should have only a very small place in the discussion of present day training methods.

When I speak of wrestling, I mean competitive wrestling such as folkstyle, freestyle or Greco-Roman. Sure there are a few Chinese who get involved in a little International wrestling and Olympic stuff, but overall, the Chinese donít embrace wrestling as it is done here, as it is practiced in high schools, colleges, AAU clubs, etc. What I am saying is that I donít believe the Chinese have quite the same level of exposure to wrestling or the coaching of wrestling.

As to whether someone is hard to take down or not, that depends on the individual and how that individual trains. No one is better at take-downs or defense to take-downs as are wrestlers. You become what you do and become like those with whom you train. Iíve not seen ANYONE better at wrestling than wrestlers and grapplers (jiu-jitsu and submission wrestlers).


Quote:


now, if the Mongolians thing was not enough an argument, there is just no way no Japanese ever went back to china or that no Chinese ever went to Japan, yes?




I donít know what this has to do with the price of beans in Mexico.


Quote:


BJJ, MMA have strong roots on Japanese arts, right? I haven't studied any of the Japanese ground arts to know for a fact, but the little judo I did as a kid tells me that the Japanese have NOT ignored ground fighting, as most my sparring sessions/matches WERE spent on the ground.





I wouldnít say STRONG roots. First let me say that Japanese jiu-jitsu is nowhere close to Brazilian jiu-jitsu in terms of grappling. They are cousins of each other. Beyond that, the training isnít similar at all. Youíre talking apples and oranges there.

Brazilian jiu-jitsu did derive from Japanese jiu-jitsu and judo but was modified. It was modified by people of European descent, using Western wrestling training methods and Western boxing.


Quote:


So, unless I'm wrong about either Japanese and Chinese martial artists having met each other, or that Japanese arts do practice ground fighting... I think the Chinese HAVE seen, thought, and experienced fights on the ground.






FORGET for a moment what ďthey have experiencedĒ. What is important is what they are experiencing NOW. How they are training NOW is whatís important. Forget ancient history and all of that. It doesnít apply to how THIS generation is practicing as far as wrestling goes.

My grandfather might have been a good wrestler, but that doesnít make ME one by default. Itís your TRAINING METHODS that are the key. From what Iíve seen, the Chinese grapplers have nothing on their Western brethren. Just my opinion.

It isnít that they havenít practiced ground fighting. Itís in the MANNER in which they practice it that is often different. That does matter a great deal.


Quote:


So maybe not going to the ground in most traditional Chinese arts was a matter of considering multiple opponents?





No one in their right mind will fight multiple opponents and try and take one to the ground. Nor would I fight them standing. Iím not that stupid. Iím not going to fight them at ALL because itís no-win situation!

I believe the whole multiple opponent argument is to a degree, a moot point. It always comes up though. People should not expect to fight multiple opponents and win. Unless you are able to defeat people who are bigger, stronger and more athletic than you are in two seconds or less, your main concern should be to RUN AWAY from a fight against multiple opponents. I think thatís just common sense.

Remember what I say here; circumstances dictate strategy and tactics!


Quote:


Ö I must say I saw a lot of room for like, sucker punches, and even groin kneeing/kicking.





Perhaps you DID. But who were you wrestling against? Where you training vale tudo or straight grappling? All of these things matter. If youíre just training straight grappling, SURE youíre going to see openings for shots because no one is actively protecting themselves or, trying to strike YOU in the process.

I would only ask that you try your theories out against excellent grapplers. Your ďlitmus testsĒ MUST only occur against the skilled and competent. Otherwise youíre merely creating a straw man. Itís not as easy as you think.


Quote:

Question is, do I just have a misconception when it comes to striking on the ground? Again, all I know is from judo, where strikes are inexistent, and all other stuff I've seen is from some UFC, where people keep slowly but steadily striking at ribs, etc.





For one thing, you are confusing a ring sport with a delivery system. Remember, the rules are the same for EVERYONE with regard to the UFC. There are rules of engagement in place within the sport of MMA. Lets remember that the underlying arts within MMA arenít governed by rules Ė only the competition side is.


Quote:


Basically, I really feel that one good shot to the face or something would at least made them let go for a second, which is what I need to get out.





It might seem that easy but obviously it isnít. Thatís what people thought for years about the Gracieís, and probably did so right before they were choked unconscious or arm-barred by them.

Competence is the key. When youíre facing a competent grappler who has trained for vale tudo and has a great guard, you wonít easily strike them without exposing yourself in some way. And thatís if you managed to take the grappler down to where he is on the bottom in a ground fight Ė which isnít likely.

What is MORE likely is that the grappler has taken YOU down so that your back is against the ground and HE has a dominant position. This is what so many people confusingly think Ė that the grapplers will PULL people down on top of them and fight from their backs. That would be incorrect.

From the bottom against a competent grappler, itís completely unrealistic to think that youíre going to strike them and easily get out without further exposing yourself.

Which scenario were you considering? The striker on top or on the bottom of a ground fight? Iím curious to know because it would help to shine a light on the reality of the situation here.


Quote:


Is this similar to how a stand up guy worries about a good flinch or kick to the thigh could be all it takes to make me forget my balance for a second, leading to a nice shoot or take down? Or is it that same argument as in the shooting thread (hope I don't start a flame war), where it's more difficult than it seems to land a good shot in?





No flame wars here bro. Itís all good. Donít misunderstand and think that Iím arguing with you. Iím not.

One mistake that people often make, is that they assume that grapplers will only drop and shoot for a takedown. They donít understand that many of them will throw from a tie-up position. So itís not all about shooting, per se.

Please keep the questions coming. Itís a good thread.




-John

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#278516 - 11/21/06 09:18 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I would like to add that the more pure japanese arts are actually move involved with throwing and ground work (judo, aikido, ju jutsu, sumo, etc) than say arts that are influenced from other places such as Karate. I honestly just think the Chinese like to strike. And aparently it worked for them so there was no consideration of the ground. The Japanese on the otherhand thought that wrestling was important and therefore had more arts that catered to it.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#278517 - 11/22/06 02:32 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
hey jkogas, thanks for the good input. I'm gonna start with a disclaimer that it's not gonna be a "I'm better than you" or "my style is better than yours" discussion. However, it probably will sound like that. I must first admit that I do have a preference for striking than ground game (note here that I do enjoy/appreciate grappling... but more in a shuai jiao/chin nah way). But all this does not mean that my PREFERENCE makes me think that ground game is not effective. After all, many of these good discussions have made me a lot more interested. And mostly, I would agree with you that kung fu noaways does very little ground game. However, I'm still quite new and commited to my style to seek separate instruction in wrestling. So for now, I'm just hoping to find some alternatives to ground fighting within my style.

First off, I haven't had any street situations nor have I fought in vale tudo type tournaments. Suprisingly, the more I got into martial arts, the less I seemed to bump into trouble. So it's true, I really wouldn't know if real fights do mostly end up on the ground, or what's easy or hard to do, or what works and what doesn't. I have however, have had and seen sparring injuries. I have a really hard time believing that striking is inneffective, etc.

I mean, I've heard Helio Gracie say that he just doesn't think striking is effective. And that just felt like such a nasty statement. I've been kicked hard enough in the ribs to know that bruises can affect your movements for days! (not to mention you're vulnerable for the next half minute or so due to breathing problems). Have also been kicked in "don't go there for safety's sake" places (ie. knees, nose) during sparring mishaps to know that my knees probably can't take shots at certain angles and my nose WILL make me affect my fighting when hit. Not gonna discuss throws and chi nah injuries here, since they seem to be part of a MMA/BJJ arsenal, so I take it it's already common belief that they do work. I suppose that this gives room for a lot of those "it's not so easy to strike a wrestler, cuz we train to deal with those". Maybe true, but if so, can't I go with the "if wrestlers don't do striking, then they're not gonna strike betters than strikers. And if even strikers get striked... then wrestlers probably will too." Or could be that Helio Gracie is just a damn amazing fighter that never gets touched, and never needs to strike. But then again, wouldn't that lead to the "depends on the invidiual" thing? If so, then we don't even need to discuss stand up vs ground game, because it'll be as simple as that people are good at diff things, there'll always be someone that's good at either one, and that both should be available for choosing.

Quote:

jkogas wrote:
A long history of fighting (and who doesnít have one of those?) and a kung fu version of judo doesnít exactly equate to wrestling. History doesnít factor into whether I can fight on the ground or not and should have only a very small place in the discussion of present day training methods.

When I speak of wrestling, I mean competitive wrestling such as folkstyle, freestyle or Greco-Roman. What I am saying is that I donít believe the Chinese have quite the same level of exposure to wrestling or the coaching of wrestling.




I agree with that in terms of my personal ability and such. Keep in mind that my argument with the mongolians and japanese were to answer someone else's post. They said that perhaps the Chinese never developed a ground game because they never encountered it. I just wanted to put out there that they have.

And if anything, weapon skills were of utmost importance back then. Yet you pretty much only see empty hands nowadays. So who knows. Maybe empty hands were just what they did when they lost their weapon. And by the time they thought of developing ground game, guns were out?

Quote:

jkogas wrote: As to whether someone is hard to take down or not, that depends on the individual and how that individual trains. No one is better at take-downs or defense to take-downs as are wrestlers. You become what you do and become like those with whom you train. Iíve not seen ANYONE better at wrestling than wrestlers and grapplers (jiu-jitsu and submission wrestlers).




I'll agree that a wrestler will be better at wrestling than a kung fu guy. And i also agree that i may be easier to take down than the next guy. And I also agree that depending on the training, someone will more likely be hardly to take down than someone who doesn't worry about it.

My point with the mongolians, again, is that there is A LOT of stress over taking down and being taken down. Kung fu streses take downs SO MUCH! We do stiking drills, throwing drills, stances drills, etc all just to get better at balance, and get better at dealing with soemone who's trying to take us down. As far as in between being on the feet and first taking down to the ground.... I really wanna say that it'll depend on the fighter. Both wrestling and kung fu (well, at least as I've trained) cover that range in training.


Quote:

Quote:

18lohans wrote:
now, if the Mongolians thing was not enough an argument, there is just no way no Japanese ever went back to china or that no Chinese ever went to Japan, yes?




I donít know what this has to do with the price of beans in Mexico.



Again, just meant to show how the chinese HAVE bumped into wrestling/grappling types.



Quote:

jkogas wrote:
First let me say that Japanese jiu-jitsu is nowhere close to Brazilian jiu-jitsu in terms of grappling. They are cousins of each other. Beyond that, the training isnít similar at all. Youíre talking apples and oranges there.

Brazilian jiu-jitsu did derive from Japanese jiu-jitsu and judo but was modified. It was modified by people of European descent, using Western wrestling training methods and Western boxing.




Thanks for the info, and I can accept that they're all different and train different. But again, I just meant that Chinese have encountered people that do grappling/ground and such. But I think saying that they're as different as apples and oranges would mean that grapplers never strike and strikers never grapple. If it's to go that way, then the vale tudo argument won't stand, cuz I can say that wrestlers never deal with striking. So how would they know what happens if I start striking when they try grappling me?


Quote:

jkogas wrote:
FORGET for a moment what ďthey have experiencedĒ. What is important is what they are experiencing NOW. How they are training NOW is whatís important. Forget ancient history and all of that. It doesnít apply to how THIS generation is practicing as far as wrestling goes.

From what I've seen, Chinese grapplers have nothing on their Western brethren. Just my opinion.




Fair enough. And I can't say much since I really haven't seen both compete.



Quote:

jkogas wrote:
It isnít that they havenít practiced ground fighting. Itís in the MANNER in which they practice it that is often different. That does matter a great deal.




THIS is what I started at. If shuai jao and chi na are as close to ground fighting as the chinese have, then what is it lacking to be up to par with good ground fighters? If the techniques are there, then how can we adapt them into more effective training methods, etc.?


Quote:

jkogas wrote:
No one in their right mind will fight multiple opponents and try and take one to the ground. Nor would I fight them standing. Iím not that stupid. Iím not going to fight them at ALL because itís no-win situation!

I believe the whole multiple opponent argument is to a degree, a moot point. It always comes up though. People should not expect to fight multiple opponents and win. Unless you are able to defeat people who are bigger, stronger and more athletic than you are in two seconds or less, your main concern should be to RUN AWAY from a fight against multiple opponents. I think thatís just common sense.

Remember what I say here; circumstances dictate strategy and tactics!




I agree. I usually think one person is trouble enough, and again, most martial arts does teach you to avoid confrontation.
But here's where history would help. Maybe weapons and multiple opponents is why the Chinese never went too far with ground fighting. In wars, it's always multiple opponents, and it's always weapons. You gotta kill many, and you've gotta kill fast. And again, by the time the gun came, maybe nobody in china bothered worrying about ground game. A lot of kung fu was killed by the government anyways.


Quote:

jkogas wrote:
Perhaps you DID. But who were you wrestling against? Where you training vale tudo or straight grappling? All of these things matter. If youíre just training straight grappling, SURE youíre going to see openings for shots because no one is actively protecting themselves or, trying to strike YOU in the process.

I would only ask that you try your theories out against excellent grapplers. Your ďlitmus testsĒ MUST only occur against the skilled and competent. Otherwise youíre merely creating a straw man. Itís not as easy as you think.





Good points. And that's why I'm here asking. I really wish it were that easy to find people willing to play. The people I played with were high school wrestlers, some that trained in some MMA/BJJ, and some that just didn't train in anything. And just to be sure, those "what if I did this" questions don't mean to put down wrestling or call it innefective, unrealistic or whatever. I mean, I do think ground is a range I should be covering sometime. And my whole question in this thread is to find out if shuai jao and chi nah can do that adequately. I guess it's similar to asking if a wrestler can kick adequately or at all. (no disrespect intended... I really don't know if wrestlers practice kicking).

Here's a good chance to ask something. As a wrestler, how do you guy start things? Is it also with strikes? or more towards rush in to make contact and go from there?


Quote:


It might seem that easy but obviously it isnít. Thatís what people thought for years about the Gracieís, and probably did so right before they were choked unconscious or arm-barred by them.

Competence is the key. When youíre facing a competent grappler who has trained for vale tudo and has a great guard, you wonít easily strike them without exposing yourself in some way. And thatís if you managed to take the grappler down to where he is on the bottom in a ground fight Ė which isnít likely.

What is MORE likely is that the grappler has taken YOU down so that your back is against the ground and HE has a dominant position. This is what so many people confusingly think Ė that the grapplers will PULL people down on top of them and fight from their backs. That would be incorrect.

From the bottom against a competent grappler, itís completely unrealistic to think that youíre going to strike them and easily get out without further exposing yourself.

Which scenario were you considering? The striker on top or on the bottom of a ground fight? Iím curious to know because it would help to shine a light on the reality of the situation here.




I definitely agree with most, if not all of this. I just needed some examples of how grapplers would deal with certain things. And no, I've never thought of wrestlers wanting to be on their backs in bottom position. Being on top is one of the few ground game "advantages" I know of. It's definitely hard to be under.

Let me give a few scenarios. In the few times I went against a wrestler, there were times I managed to throw them down. On the times they allowed me to throw them as bait, they added to the throw, so I ended up on the bottom when we reached the ground. On the times I threw them successfully I either didn't follow them to the ground, joint locked their arm from a standing/squatting position, or got my arm pulled and ended up on top of them.

When I was on the bottom, I gotta say I just tried to kick them away. And most of the time that backed them off, so I got to get up. (I'm up for some tips on what I could've done).

When I was on the top without having them in a joint lock, I ended up mostly with my side on top of them. And from there I usually settled for a quick punch to the face. (alos up for some tips)

Quote:

jkogas wrote:
No flame wars here bro. Itís all good. Donít misunderstand and think that Iím arguing with you. Iím not.

One mistake that people often make, is that they assume that grapplers will only drop and shoot for a takedown. They donít understand that many of them will throw from a tie-up position. So itís not all about shooting, per se.

Please keep the questions coming. Itís a good thread.




I appreciate how you're clearing misunderstandings on wrestling one by one.
_________________________
"Now use head for something other than target!" Still never attacked by trees, 18lohans

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#278518 - 11/22/06 02:07 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: 18lohans]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
the "eye gouge arguement may be simple, but it doesn't make it untrue.

ex. bj penn v. matt hughes. an inadvertant thumb brought hughes to his knees. prolly would have been a fight ender if not for a ref and rules.

of course, there are no garauntee's only opportunities

and of course, it's all a two way street.

i have nothing but respect for mma. it's a great skill and those guys know bitter training. doesn't change the fact that it's sport.

the difference is when you make a deliberate attmept to violate "the rules" as part of your every attack and defense.

ex. your in a standing guillotine and you;

sport) throw body shots

self defense) attack the groin

it's a basic example, not meant to be all inclusive.

you will fight the way to train to fight. if you train for sport fighting you will sport fight under stress, if you train for "self defense" you will perform in that way (if you don't freeze that is).

and unless your renzo v. someone so drunk they're nearly incapacitated, it's unlikely you'll be able to takedown and mount someone in such a way that they can't reach some vital target.

not saying that it would be lethal, but certainly unpleasant.

and as someone mentioned, multiple attackers, attakers with weapons, etc.

even bas rutten says "on the street, don't go to the ground!"
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falling leaves discipline, concentration & wisdom

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#278519 - 11/22/06 04:59 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
ashe_higgs:

Yuki Nakai fought three matches while blinded, winning two of them via armbar, losing only the third to Rickson Gracie.

May eye gouges would do YOU in. Perhaps not everyone is as easy to finish however. It's wise to not make blanket statements.

I'll be back later to rebut these asinine points.


-John

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#278520 - 11/22/06 11:07 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I'm gonna start with a disclaimer that it's not gonna be a "I'm better than you" or "my style is better than yours" discussion. However, it probably will sound like that. I must first admit that I do have a preference for striking than ground game (note here that I do enjoy/appreciate grappling... but more in a shuai jiao/chin nah way). But all this does not mean that my PREFERENCE makes me think that ground game is not effective. After all, many of these good discussions have made me a lot more interested. And mostly, I would agree with you that kung fu nowadays does very little ground game. However, I'm still quite new and committed to my style to seek separate instruction in wrestling. So for now, I'm just hoping to find some alternatives to ground fighting within my style.





Iíll be more than happy to hear what you have to say. Lets all be only concerned with the pursuit of logic and common sense. In that way perhaps we can make some headway into a good discussion.


Quote:


Ö. I have however, have had and seen sparring injuries. I have a really hard time believing that striking is ineffective, etc.





Well lets clarify this right here and now because I believe there is some general misconception on this forum that I donít believe in the efficacy of striking. Thatís not true. I train boxing quite a bit in conjunction with my clinch and ground. This to make my grappling more effective. I know how fights go in the real world and in all honestly, people stand and trade for a couple of seconds before it turns into a clinch battle. That isnít bias, thatís just the reality of fighting. People donít trade for long in real fights. It hits the grapple pretty quickly. Whether a fight goes to the ground or not is another thing and, is a result of the clinch that happens (itís pretty easy for that four-legged table to become a three-legged table during a scuffle and fall to the ground).



Quote:


I mean, I've heard Helio Gracie say that he just doesn't think striking is effective. And that just felt like such a nasty statement.





It would be important to understand the context in which statements like this are made. I canít obviously comment on statements that Helio Gracie makes. I donít feel that striking is ineffective. I just see the realities for what they are. Sure, it sucks to get hit. I donít think anyone would disagree with that.



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I've been kicked hard enough in the ribs to know that bruises can affect your movements for days! (not to mention you're vulnerable for the next half minute or so due to breathing problems). Have also been kicked in "don't go there for safety's sake" places (ie. knees, nose) during sparring mishaps to know that my knees probably can't take shots at certain angles and my nose WILL make me affect my fighting when hit.





The question then becomes, WHY on earth did you allow yourself to stay in a position to get kicked that hard in the ribs in the FIRST place? Thatís the whole purpose of those two other ranges.



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Not gonna discuss throws and chi nah injuries here, since they seem to be part of a MMA/BJJ arsenal, so I take it it's already common belief that they do work. I suppose that this gives room for a lot of those "it's not so easy to strike a wrestler, cuz we train to deal with those". Maybe true, but if so, can't I go with the "if wrestlers don't do striking, then they're not gonna strike betters than strikers. And if even strikers get striked... then wrestlers probably will too." Or could be that Helio Gracie is just a damn amazing fighter that never gets touched, and never needs to strike. But then again, wouldn't that lead to the "depends on the invidiual" thing? If so, then we don't even need to discuss stand up vs ground game, because it'll be as simple as that people are good at diff things, there'll always be someone that's good at either one, and that both should be available for choosing.





Honestly I had a hard time following your point in that paragraph. I think you were basically saying that the individual is more important than any style or skill-set, to which I would agree. The better fighter will always prevail. Things have to be discussed as if all things were equal.


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And if anything, weapon skills were of utmost importance back then. Yet you pretty much only see empty hands nowadays. So who knows. Maybe empty hands were just what they did when they lost their weapon. And by the time they thought of developing ground game, guns were out?





Itís the modern era. I see two types of violence that can occur, 1) fights and 2) assaults. Fights happen in frat house parties and barrooms. Assaults happen when youíre robbed at the atm. Fights are generally empty hand affairs. Combat involves firearms, at least here in the US. No martial art, striking, grappling or any combination thereof will even the odds when firearms are aimed at you. Lets understand that right out of the gate.


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I'll agree that a wrestler will be better at wrestling than a kung fu guy. And i also agree that i may be easier to take down than the next guy. And I also agree that depending on the training, someone will more likely be hardly to take down than someone who doesn't worry about it.

My point with the Mongolians, again, is that there is A LOT of stress over taking down and being taken down. Kung fu stresses take downs SO MUCH! We do striking drills, throwing drills, stances drills, etc all just to get better at balance, and get better at dealing with someone who's trying to take us down. As far as in between being on the feet and first taking down to the ground.... I really wanna say that it'll depend on the fighter. Both wrestling and kung fu (well, at least as I've trained) cover that range in training.





So do you wrestle or is it all just drills? I mean, do you wrestle for position and the throw in the clinch and do you wrestle on the ground? If not, what is it that you do?




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But again, I just meant that Chinese have encountered people that do grappling/ground and such. But I think saying that they're as different as apples and oranges would mean that grapplers never strike and strikers never grapple. If it's to go that way, then the vale tudo argument won't stand, cuz I can say that wrestlers never deal with striking. So how would they know what happens if I start striking when they try grappling me?






Hmm? Do you not feel that Brazilian jiu-jitsu and Japanese jiu-jitsu are different? How does this tie into grapplers never strike and strikers never grapple? Forgive me if your point escapes me at the moment.

How would wrestlers know what happens if you strat striking them as they are grappling you? That depends entirely on the specific circumstances of the situation youíre involved in. There are innumerous factors at work which cannot be speculated on. Thatís like saying, ďhow would *I* know what happens when you start striking me as I try to grapple youĒ. Who knows? Right?


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If shuai jao and chi na are as close to ground fighting as the Chinese have, then what is it lacking to be up to par with good ground fighters? If the techniques are there, then how can we adapt them into more effective training methods, etc.?





In a word; ďAlivenessĒ. Alive training methods yield alive practitioners. This means plenty of live wrestling. Thatís the only way it can be done. Drilling is fine but even the drills must be alive. Constant sparring is the key and that means wrestling live in the clinch and on the ground.



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weapons and multiple opponents is why the Chinese never went too far with ground fighting. In wars, it's always multiple opponents, and it's always weapons. You gotta kill many, and you've gotta kill fast. And again, by the time the gun came, maybe nobody in china bothered worrying about ground game. A lot of kung fu was killed by the government anyways.





The one thing that tends to keep coming up in these conversations is your mentioning of ancient China. This is part of the problem. Unless youíre a history buff, forget about ancient China and styles and everything else. Focus on the here and now and what YOU have to do to develop your game in all three ranges. That has nothing to do with the Chinese, Mongolians, Japanese or anyone else. It has EVERYTHING to do with you and your training partners.



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I really wish it were that easy to find people willing to playÖ.

Ö.And my whole question in this thread is to find out if shuai jao and chi nah can do that adequately. I guess it's similar to asking if a wrestler can kick adequately or at all. (no disrespect intended... I really don't know if wrestlers practice kicking).





What country do you live in? I have a hunch that you donít live in the US, correct?


I would say that if were up to me, Iíd not study shuai jao and chi na if I had other options. Brazilian jiu-jitsu is all OVER the place anymore. Iíd find one of those gyms and study pronto.


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Here's a good chance to ask something. As a wrestler, how do you guy start things? Is it also with strikes? or more towards rush in to make contact and go from there?





Start things? Thatís assuming that Iíll ďstart somethingĒ. I wouldnít start anything. Counter fighting is my preference. That doesnít mean that I wouldnít be aggressive or intercept anything my opponent was throwing at me. Its just saying that I wouldnít seek a ďhands onĒ option to a potentially violent encounter. Iím not a cop or security guard so thereís no reason to.

But, if someone were rushing me to strike or grapple, Iíd try and intercept with a tie-up to shut down the arms, first and foremost and then go from there.


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I just needed some examples of how grapplers would deal with certain things.





Obviously itís difficult to say how all grapplers would deal with certain things. Not all grapplers train specifically for fighting. Many do and I am one of them. I do have specific game plans in place for dealing with strikers. Lets say that I donít plan on giving them any room to get their game started. I plan on pressing the action and dictating a fight and the ranges that the fight occurs. The one range that I plan on taking OUT of the equation is the free-movement or, ďstand upĒ range. I fully intend on taking every fight I am involved in, into the clinch or on the ground.


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I appreciate how you're clearing misunderstandings on wrestling one by one.




Itís a labor of love brother. And its one thatís been going on here for nearly FOUR long years. It ďainítĒ over yet.


-John

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#278521 - 11/22/06 11:09 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: JKogas]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
ashe_higgs wrote:
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the "eye gouge argument may be simple, but it doesn't make it untrue.

ex. bj penn v. matt hughes. an inadvertant thumb brought hughes to his knees. prolly would have been a fight ender if not for a ref and rules.





All you can say it ďprobablyĒ because youíre just guessing. A guess is worth about jack sh*t. Refer to my mention of Yuki Nakai. Stories are endless however and donít ultimately mean a damned thing. Speculation is only speculation no matter how far you want to slice it.


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i have nothing but respect for mma. it's a great skill and those guys know bitter training. doesn't change the fact that it's sport.





I disagree for reasons stated elsewhere. MMA is competed as a sport. That doesnít make MMA a sport. MMA is an alive ďartĒ, not a sport. Lets make an attempt to get our minds around that. Its obvious that you haven't done so yet.

All alive arts CAN be competed as sports because the fighters are functional. Dead training methods donít produce a damned thing.



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the difference is when you make a deliberate attempt to violate "the rules" as part of your every attack and defense.

ex. your in a standing guillotine and you;

sport) throw body shots

self defense) attack the groin

it's a basic example, not meant to be all inclusive.





You can theorize all you want about groin shots and everything else. I could theorize and say, throw your groin shots all you want. When youíre unconscious from the choke, Iíll theorize about running over you in my car. What does it all mean? Nothing. Itís just your opinion of ďwhat might happenĒ.

But who said that *I* would go for a standing guillotine anyway??


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you will fight the way to train to fight. if you train for sport fighting you will sport fight under stress, if you train for "self defense" you will perform in that way (if you don't freeze that is).





I donít train for ďsportĒ. I train for performance. Do you understand what that means? Understand aliveness and all it entails? Youíd better if all this training means anything to you at all. Aliveness is just common sense and has nothing to do with rules whatsoever. But Iím sure you understand that.


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and unless your renzo v. someone so drunk they're nearly incapacitated, it's unlikely you'll be able to takedown and mount someone in such a way that they can't reach some vital target.





Bullsh*t.


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not saying that it would be lethal, but certainly unpleasant.





Say what you want. Iím saying it wouldnít happen at all.


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and as someone mentioned, multiple attackers, attakers with weapons, etc.

even bas rutten says "on the street, don't go to the ground!"





Bas is an overhyped, over-rated personality. Take whatever you want from Bas. On the street, Bas isnít there doing your fighting for you. Circumstances dictate strategy.



-John

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