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#278502 - 08/10/06 05:58 PM shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling alt.?
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
Most of the kung fu styles I've trained in offer some sort of chi na and shuai jao training. When I look at BJJ, Judo techniques, I can definetely see similarities. Specially when it comes to body throws, leg sweeps, or twisting techniques.

Does anyone know if chi nah and/or shuai jao do ground fighting and such? Or attacks that fully commit to digging the opponent's legs, like a shoot?

Also, if I were to use grappling techniques, such as sprawl, would I be breaking kung fu principles and structure?

(Disclaimer: it's not that I'm unwilling to study some grappling on my own, but that I'm more interested in investing time into mastering what I've already started. It is also faith that my style has enough tools to deal with any situation)

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#278503 - 08/10/06 06:33 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling alt.? [Re: 18lohans]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
From what I have seen and read, shuai jao is akin to Judo and chin-na is similar to Aikido. I don't think either really stress ground technique in the manner BJJ does, but that doesn't neccessarily mean they can't work. I found a clip of a SJ demonstration:

http://emptyflower.stanford.edu/video/Chang_sc_3.WMV
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#278504 - 08/11/06 01:13 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: MattJ]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Great clip, nice demonstration of good shuai chiao skills. Bagua has very similar throwing aspects to it. Using a lock or hold as a method of engaging your opponents body and using that as a method to find their center of gravity and move it.
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#278505 - 08/11/06 04:56 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: Fisherman]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
all chinses martial arts are composed of four catagories

striking (ti)

kicking (da)

throwing / takedowns / wrestling (shuai)

and qin na which has

sprain / tearing (fen gen "split muscle/tendon)

break or dislocate (cou gua)

muscle / skin grabs (na yue)

vital area strikes like kicking your opponent in the balls or striking nerve clusters / kidneys / liver (dian nue / dim mak)

as a general rule the chinses martial arts say
"stand and dominate"
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#278506 - 08/11/06 11:36 AM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling alt.? [Re: 18lohans]
Taison Offline
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Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Shui Jiao as a wrestling/grappling alt?

I would say, it serves to aid your main MA best. Unlike Judo, SJ develops around your main MA.

Shui Jiao is very akin to Judo, except many throws starts with either countering a kick or striking an important area like throat, eye-gouge, kick to groin. Chin-na is very akin to Aikido but is more forceful if you're doing Shaolin Chin-na whereas Taiji-Chin na is more about softness like Aikido.

Not much to say, SJ is similar to Judo just a bit different.

-Taison out
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#278507 - 08/11/06 02:38 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: Taison]
18lohans Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 321
MattJ:
Thanks for that clip! I have never seen chang tung sen actually performing! The guy's somewhat of a legend from what I know.

Fisherman: (everyone else, feel free to jump in on this one).

While I haven't studied bagua (would very much like to, someday!), I can see similar principles/techniques in the styles I have studied. Against a grappler, do you think these shuai chiao type could prevent, or deal with attempts to go to the ground?

Ashe:

I do agree with your categories, and IMHO, it sounds like a quite complete list of ranges/techniques, or what have you. However, I still feel there's nothing about ground work. (again, I can see why many would just suggest cross training). It's just that the chinese have been doing these arts for at least thousands of years. Did nobody think about going to the ground? (or is it perhaps that fights back in those days were always vs multiple opponents?)

Taison:

Great point! I was thinking more in terms of covering all my ranges more than just doing what goes along with my main style. Since my main concern is still the ground, I can't help but asking: how does judo fare on the ground (vs, say BJJ, which I for sure know is well versed on the ground).

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#278508 - 08/11/06 03:44 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: 18lohans]
ashe_higgs Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 593
Loc: phoenix
i mean no disrespect to my jj/bjj/mma brothers, but ground fighting is fine in a ring, but i would definitely rather stay on my feet with no ref around.

furthermore, people don't consider the effect that rules for fighter safety have on MMA. i.e. if eye gouges and samll joint manipulation were legal, fighters would be A LOT more hesitant to go to the ground. when your tied up like that, it's virtually impossible to protect yourself from that kind of an attack.

which is why the CMA says "stand and dominate"

now that being said, i'm all for fighter safety and i wouldn't want to see eye gouges in any fight.

on another point, of course "judo is similar to shuai jiao, etc." all arts are based on two arms and two legs, etc.
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#278509 - 11/20/06 12:46 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: ashe_higgs]
gojucrane Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 8
Loc: New Jersey
Hello All. I agree with ashe on the four catagories to make the art complete. If I could further expand, I don't think of chin na or shuai jao as an alternative but as just another path to go down should the opputunity present itself. Chin means to seize and na means to control. The way I look at it is that the chin portion is always present in the technique so it wil always be seize and strike, seize and kick, seize and lock, or seize and throw/grapple. Chin Ti, Chin Da, Chin Na, or Chin Shuai. Not an alternative, but whatever presents itself to control the opponent and defend youself. Just a few thoughts in my humble opinion. Looking forward to any commentary
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#278510 - 11/20/06 05:24 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: ashe_higgs]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ashe_higgs wrote:

Quote:

i mean no disrespect to my jj/bjj/mma brothers, but ground fighting is fine in a ring, but i would definitely rather stay on my feet with no ref around.





No disrespect taken. Personally, I prefer NEITHER standing or going to the ground. I prefer not getting involved in the first place. But, you DO understand WHY people choose to clinch and take folks to the ground in a fight, right?


Quote:


furthermore, people don't consider the effect that rules for fighter safety have on MMA. i.e. if eye gouges and samll joint manipulation were legal, fighters would be A LOT more hesitant to go to the ground. when your tied up like that, it's virtually impossible to protect yourself from that kind of an attack.





I cannot believe that here in the year 2006 you’re still talking about rules, and, MMA being a “sport art”. I can see that you’re somewhat new here and will only ask that you consider carefully what you’re saying.

One, the rules are the same for everyone involved in MMA.

Two, MMA isn’t only applicable to the sport environment. I don’t believe that sport martial arts even exist. There are only people who train to compete for sports. If you train MMA for different purposes, you will achieve different results. But regardless, to imply that MMA fighters can’t defend themselves in street fights is absurd.


Quote:


which is why the CMA says "stand and dominate"




Or, stand and be dominated yourself. That’s another angle that you may not have considered. Here’s yet another, be taken down and be dominated because of a lack of a ground game.


Quote:


now that being said, i'm all for fighter safety and i wouldn't want to see eye gouges in any fight.






Love those eye gouging arguments…….



-John

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#278511 - 11/20/06 05:34 PM Re: shuai jao and chi na as wrestling/grappling al [Re: gojucrane]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
That quote "stand & dominate" pretty much describe the Chinese view of things. They revolved around striking and staying on their feet. They learn takedowns and such but just because the opponent falls to the ground doesnt mean you have to follow him. You can continue the fight fine without having to go to the ground. Or maybe the Chinese just never though of it.

But you ask a good question. I'm all about covering all ranges but now I'm wondering how the kungfu I am learning would deal with such situations. Because I've just basically been adding to my arsenal whatever I feel would work. Kungfu has helped with my hands, random MT stuff i learned for my legs, and the MMA aspect has helped with ground and clinch work. I'd be kinda cool to see what a pure art person would do...
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