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#423357 - 11/03/09 01:34 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Stormdragon]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
dont forget the 'secret war' in laos, with the dubious title of being the most heavily bombed country on earth, between 1967-73 (maybe 1965 i cant remember exactly) laos was bombed on average every 8 minutes, 24 hours per day. more bombs were dropped on laos alone during the vietnam war than the entire 2nd world war!
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#423368 - 11/03/09 03:58 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Frankly you really have no idea what sort of force the military will use if it's deemed necessary.

Do we go to further lengths these days to protect people and prevent unnecessary loss of life? Sure, because like you said the public get's angry quickly over that sort of thing. And the military prefers to have good publicity however the military (or government rather-the U.S. anyway) isn't afraid to take extreme measures or go against public opinion if it's deemed needed. Especially if it feels that it's protecting the people and the people are simply misguided and that they can somehow get away with it and not be put into the spotlight.

We do stuff all the time that the public doesn't like, why do you think the world mostly hates us?

A lot of people have been extremely upset about us chasing the Taliban into Pakistan thus catching a lot of Pakistani's in the middle yet we have done it and still are. Including the use of heavy weapons such as artillery and air strikes which have in some instances accidently killed civilians.
Smart bombs? Our hi tech military wizardry isn't all that special in reality, trust me I've seen a lot of it in action.
Guns or bombs combined with electronics sound like a good idea in theory but are plagued with all sorts of short comings. Mistakes and malfunctions happen all the time.

The bigger the theat the more force we're willing to use. Imagine a few million cannabals who can't be reasoned with and spread their infection?

Next, our government was indeed religion centered under Bush but I'd say that now it very much isn't. And it's becoming less so all the time. The majority of us military personell are definitely not Christian (or if they are it's in word only). Would they treat those people as people with souls still? I don't know but when people start seeing those zombies in action and hear that there's no cure in sight, they might start looking at more decisive solutions.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/03/09 04:17 PM)
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#423369 - 11/03/09 04:02 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Stormdragon]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
If there was a possibility of using diplomacy with the zombies then we'd watch our use of force but if it was viewed as a futile solution we'd pretty much go ape'$hit.
But the British and Americans are too different animals entirely. Although British security contractors have been known to be pretty ruthless too.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/03/09 04:05 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#423374 - 11/03/09 05:09 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Stormdragon]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
British troops have all the training and none of the equipment, whilst America has all the equipment, and a somewhat, shall we say, more 'enthusiastic' approach to things.
We use a hammer to drive a nail, you guys just drop a skip full of anvils grin

As for the military not being afraid to do things its people dont want it to do, that is the very antithesis of what your constitution stands for. The whole 'right to bear arms' was a measure designed to ensure that no government would ever be able to ignore its people. Ignore the people, and you have betrayed the concept of democracy you are intent on showing as the best way for the world. Why should they listen in Iraq if you have thrown your own system out to serve your own needs?
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#423375 - 11/03/09 06:12 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
I'll agree with your comparison. Our approach is basically to pull stuff out of our a$$es on the fly, with about 20 minutes of training on our advanced gear at the last minute. Enthusiasm, and hope are the words of the day.
It's like "yeah, let's do this, let's get it goin!..uh, what does this do?..oops uh, I think I lost our radio freqs, well now we know you don't want to do that."

Seriously, the first vehicle I used in Iraq (one with an enclosed turret full of gadgets I didn't know crap about), I had a 20 minute class on going over general stuff before my first mission. It made things interesting on the road. My entire 2 months of training before getting here was done on vehicles we almost never use lol. We spent a lot of time learning on the job through trial and error just figuring things out as we went. Fun times.

About the government sometimes just doing whatever it wants, that may not be what our founders wanted and I don't always like it but that's just the reality of it bro. People find loopholes to get what they want, and it usually screws over the guys at the bottom of the ladder but that's the way it goes. Sometimes the public is wrong and it works out, often not. Either way it happens plenty. After awhile in the military you learn to just deal with it no matter how much it sucks.
War isn't the same as it used to be and never will be again the way it was in say WWII but there's bound to be times when we go back to old methods.

By the way, I don't mean to be a dick or anything I'm just giving you my opinion based on my experiences and what I've seen. I'm not looking for a fight I respect you opinion, you're a sharp guy, we just have different views due to coming from somewhat different worlds with different experiences. I could always be wrong.


Edited by Stormdragon (11/03/09 06:24 PM)
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#423376 - 11/03/09 10:00 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Cord]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Cord
Christ was the most famous zombie of them all.


HAHAHA!!

That cracked me up.

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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#423377 - 11/03/09 10:50 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: grumbleweed]
grumbleweed Offline
Member

Registered: 08/12/06
Posts: 446
just checked it was actually 1964 to 1973-bomb them back to the stoneage....but hey at least the scrap metal dealers still make use of the unexploded bombs that litter the countryside!

i'm not a US hater by the way, some things just escalate out of control for some reason.
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#423378 - 11/04/09 12:44 AM Re: Zombies! [Re: Stormdragon]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon

About the government sometimes just doing whatever it wants, that may not be what our founders wanted and I don't always like it but that's just the reality of it bro.


I agree completely, but at times when we (and I include all UN countries), are, essentialy, enforcing democracy on a region of the world that runs to rules set by thousands of years of a completely different cultural infrastructure, the most powerful weapon we have at our disposal, is to ensure our home countries offer a situation to aspire to. With the worst global depression since the 30's, caused by greed on every level from the trailer park to the top, and 'democratic' governments blatantly ingnoring those they serve, I would suggest that we are not offering much hope to the hearts and minds of those we seek to enlighten.
If you barge into my house trying to force me to buy a TV from you, you better be damn sure that its in pristine working order wink

Quote:
By the way, I don't mean to be a dick or anything I'm just giving you my opinion based on my experiences and what I've seen. I'm not looking for a fight I respect you opinion, you're a sharp guy, we just have different views due to coming from somewhat different worlds with different experiences. I could always be wrong.


Dude, you are in the Military, that gives you the winning hand in this one, its a good discussion, and as friends, we can do it without all the internet BS that ruins such things smile Respect is mutual dude smile

Back on topic though, I still dont think blanket bombing, or Nuclear option would be taken in such circumstances.

The infected are easy to spot and differentiate from uninfected

They are still 'our' citizens, with human rights, until confirmed otherwise by both medical and theological authorities (never underestimate the power of the church in governments)

It would involve destroying our own infrastructures, and governments will play the long game and look at recovery costs, and have an eye on weakening themselves against non zombie related global threats.

Basically, governments would only bomb their own countries at a time when it would be too late to do any good IMO
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#423380 - 11/04/09 04:33 AM Re: Zombies! [Re: Cord]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Even if we DID set a better standard for these other nations to aspire to, our culture will never really fit with those people.

I don't see modern democracy and progressive European or American culture ever truly being accepted by Iraqi's or Afghans. With another, more traditional culture built in over thousands of years, and the two cultures being mutually exclusive, it would take decades or centuries to make our culture fit and we would have to wipe out nearly all remnants of the old culture (i.e. traditional Arab/Islamic culture).

They either don't really like or don't know what to do with our concepts of government, or freedom and in Iraq it's not working well at all, only a small minority is actually supportive. They stopped attacking us for the most part but that's because most of them want us to go away. A few are thankful for removing Saddamn but even so they don't want us to stay and many are happy about Saddamn being gone but simultaneously upset about the opening that is now set up for various factions to try and take control.

We tried setting up a government that would be stable and effective but it really isn't. They aren't ready to take control and do our job and we would need a lot longer to make that happen plus there's many groups out there not supportive and frankly I think it's been a waste of time and resources but alas I have a job to do and I'll do it regardless. Things are better than they weere a few years ago but still pretty shaky. It would be like Russian invading, taking over America (except with America having a government already in place that everyone hated) and setting up a Communist regime. Sure some people would be for it, some would be happy that the old regime was gone if it was particularly disliked like Saddamn's was, but could it be put in place and made stable and permanent in only a few years? No way it would collapse as soon as the Russians left. It would be weak and there would be multiple factions vying for control and chaos would reign.
They also have no concept of traffic laws which drives me insane.
End rant.

Back to the topic, I agree that it would be a last resort which I've been saying but I think that at the point where multiple large cities are overrun, is last resort territory. Imagine the difficulty with maintaining an air tight quarrantine on those cities and tracking possible escaped infected while trying to clear the cities block by block and having no real allies in those cities (unlike in Iraq where we had people who would work with us on giving us intel or support in other ways and insigenous security forces already in place). Security forces would be stretched to the breaking point. You mentioned the economic costs of bombing our cities but the fact of the matter is the economies of those cities would already be shut down anyway. I think it would be a no win situation but we would end up going to an extreme, perhaps staging a foregin attack to ease the minds of the public towards their own government.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#423384 - 11/04/09 12:51 PM Re: Zombies! [Re: Stormdragon]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Originally Posted By: Stormdragon

Back to the topic, I agree that it would be a last resort which I've been saying but I think that at the point where multiple large cities are overrun, is last resort territory. Imagine the difficulty with maintaining an air tight quarrantine on those cities and tracking possible escaped infected while trying to clear the cities block by block and having no real allies in those cities (unlike in Iraq where we had people who would work with us on giving us intel or support in other ways and insigenous security forces already in place). Security forces would be stretched to the breaking point. You mentioned the economic costs of bombing our cities but the fact of the matter is the economies of those cities would already be shut down anyway. I think it would be a no win situation but we would end up going to an extreme, perhaps staging a foregin attack to ease the minds of the public towards their own government.


Not touching the off topic stuff, because I dont want the zombie thread derailed, and, even when being done maturely, political discussions are against forum rules. Maybe we can put the world to rights over a beer or 10 someday? wink

Re. the zombie situation, I still think that they would look to set up 'clean zones', evacuate the living to them, and defend them, leaving the undead to decompose to nothing over time on the outside.

This would mean that after eradication, returning to the cities would be less costly and quicker than a complete rebuild from the ashes, or having large areas left with a 50 year half life till they are able to be repopulated.

Having seen how the US government acted during Katrina, I am happier facing the zombie threat in the UK.
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