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#277788 - 08/09/06 09:15 PM what style should i train in?
Pong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 12
Well I train in tae-kwon-do, but never with swords..I study swordsmanship on my own time with books and the internet(thank god for google!)and i am very good at spinning motions,slashes, and deep thrusts, Im looking for a style that will help me perfect these as well as strengthen the rest of my skills, so what sword art would be best for this?
(I use a standard curved 40" bokken)
Please leave the name of the style and a link to a website about it..or just the name if u dont have the time..
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#277789 - 08/09/06 10:00 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
spinning motions? hah. maybe you should look into XMA.

In any case, what I'd recommend is you completely forget everything you've taught yourself to do. It's quite apparent that it's not doing much good because you didn't use any of the correct terms for those movements.

Find a kendo dojo or an iaido dojo in your location and train there, then self training will become worthwhile.

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#277790 - 08/10/06 12:56 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
Paradox, there are two times I ever do something that can be called a spinning motion with a blade. The first is my salute, which involves several 360 spins in various directions, the number depending on the amount of caffeine I've imbibed that morning. The second time, and only time during a bout, is when I pass my opponent and do a quick 180 spin with my arm to stab them in the back (being left handed has advantages). However, one of these is merely for showing off, and the other is a simple 180 degree swing of the arm and wrist, nothing to practice. The only other possible time that you should do anything spinning is when you are inches from your opponent and both blades are pointed high in the air, spin 180 and stab their foot before they get the same idea. How you practice that is practicing not getting into such a precarious situation.

Pong, you may think this is an odd question, but how's your footwork? Have you even thought about the lower half of your body? Don't be ashamed, most people don't when they pick up a blade. This is why you do not train without a teacher.

Sword footwork is extremely different from hand to hand footwork, and the various styles of swordsmanship create entirely different styles. Footwork in hand to hand is based on mobility and giving you power (note: generalization). Footwork in fencing is based off of getting you in and out quickly while keeping a stable platform for your upper body so you can aim and swing correctly. If you don't have a good foundation of proper footwork, you can forget everything now. For example, in traditional fencing instruction, we don't even give you a blade for months, it's entirely footwork. I don't know about my kenjitsu cousins, but I hope that the focus is there as well. If your footwork is improper, you might even injure yourself. I've heard stories about dislocated kneecaps and sprained/permanently damaged ankles from bad lunges, and my knees are getting sensitive to the weather despite having decent footwork.

Finally, swordsmanship isn't about killing as much as not getting killed. Parries, binds, and distance are as or even more important than the attacks, and they cannot be practiced alone (one of the weaknesses of kata based learning compared to bouting based). Learning from descriptions in books, pictures, or videos will lead you to failure, quite likely breaking your knee due to bad footwork.

My advice, there are six major ways.
Kenjitsu
Kendo
Iaido
Fencing
Kung Fu
Escrima

Pick one, learn from your instructor. Don't think you can learn everything from a book, because knowing the move is one thing, doing it is another, and doing it right is a whole 'nother ball game.
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#277791 - 08/10/06 01:26 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Benjamin1986]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Since you mentioned fencing, we might as well mention ARMA as well, which although rare, usually has something pretty interesting to offer if you can find a place that does it.

http://www.thearma.org/

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#277792 - 08/10/06 09:50 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: paradoxbox]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Unless you are very very fortunate, happen to live in Seattle, or are willing to move across country or even to a different country, you won't have a lot of style's to pick from.

The sword arts, including fencing, arma, et all are fairly few and pretty far between. There is likely to be one or two sources of instruction near you, but that's about it.

Searching for the perfect style doesn't do you any good if it's not nearby. Perhaps the perfect style you settle on is Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu. Unless you move to Seattle, you're pretty much screwed. Or Hoki Ryu, which is only available in Bloomington, Indiana and Japan so far as I know.

Typically the advice is to find out what training oppurtunities are available in your area, do some reasearch on those oppurtunities, and choose from that list.

And kiss the flashy spinning moves goodbye. You are not going to find a lot of spinning in the traditional sword world. Swords are made to kill people and they are very very good at it. Flashy things look good on camera but are very likely to get you killed in a real encounter. Addmittedly real sword fights never happen anymore, but the traditional world still trains as if they might. What would be the point otherwise. Without that focus on the reality of swordfighting, what you are left with is sword dancing.

If you tell us where you are, perhaps we can help you find something in your area.


Edited by Charles Mahan (08/10/06 09:51 AM)
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#277793 - 08/10/06 10:32 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Pong

What styles are available where you live????

You going to fly to Japan to study if I suggest a style that is ONLY available there?????

Let us know where your located (roughly) and maybe we can help you find something near there.

Oh, say it with me, say it with feeling!!!!

"YOU CAN'T LEARN MARTIAL ARTS FROM BOOKS, DVDS, OR THE INTERNET!!!!!!"

You might get "good" enough to impress equally clueless folks.
But to anyone that actually trains---you'll just be a joke.

Your choice.


Edited by cxt (08/10/06 10:37 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#277794 - 08/10/06 11:34 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: cxt]
Pong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 12
Quote:


"YOU CAN'T LEARN MARTIAL ARTS FROM BOOKS, DVDS, OR THE INTERNET!!!!!!"

You might get "good" enough to impress equally clueless folks.
But to anyone that actually trains---you'll just be a joke.



OK first let me explain this to everyone... SPINNING MOTION meaning the Tansetsu Ransetsu move from the Yagyu style.I am pretty good at those kind of techniques. and no Im not good at technical terms, because ive never had any decent sword training.. I believe Kendo is available where i live, and I agree SOMEWHAT on the above quote.. Books, if you are a good learner and DO train with other similar martial arts, can do quite alot, but yyou are right that it is not as good as training.. WHICH I EXACTLY WHY I PUT THIS POST HERE!! TO FIND OUT WHICH STYLE TO TRAIN IN!!!!
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#277795 - 08/10/06 11:41 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
Pong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 12
and when that 180 degree turn u mentioned for me is called Gokui, LIsten I AM TRYING to find a school, and also the only names i know are from the Yagyu style from a book, and also from my EXTREMELY limited Bahng-Mahn-Gi training( I believe i spelled it right)in Tae-Kwon-do.. and please do not mock me for trying to LEARN...who knows, someday i may surpass you..when im like this=
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#277796 - 08/10/06 11:49 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Benjamin1986]
Pong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 12
Quote:

Parries, binds, and distance are as or even more important than the attacks, and they cannot be practiced alone (one of the weaknesses of kata based learning compared to bouting based). Learning from descriptions in books, pictures, or videos will lead you to failure, quite likely breaking your knee due to bad footwork.




I agree with you(and sorry for posting so much in a row.. Lots of stuf to reply to) but i never said i practiced alone.. I practice with a good friend of mine who is learning with me. also you CAN learn to do something correctly from a book if there is a good enough description and a diagram or 2. Defense is also very important to me, as I practice short-scale parrying, and long scale parrying, more than i do techniques. I use a HUGE amount of time practicing stances and footwork, while defending and atacking. And remember i dont use the correct terms, because they have different names in different styles, even within the same country!( EG. In tae-kwon-do you have your round kick, but in Hwa-rang-do its caled a chop-kick.. both Korean, different names)
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#277797 - 08/10/06 11:52 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Pong

No, nobody is "mocking" you for trying to learn.

Not doing so now, but I will be happy to "mock" you for asking for help--then not listening to the exact information your asking for.

You say you don't know, you ask the questions.

You really should be paying attention to the answers.

Folks around here DO KNOW.

Your just not happy with the answers your getting---so you want to argue about it.

What your doing by training from a book is NOT helping you--its HURTING you.
You may "think" your doing a cut from a book correctly---but your probabaly not even close.

AGAIN--where do live????????

(roughly---like which city or State would help)

We can't very well point you in the right direction if we don't say the city/State you live in now can we???????


Edited by cxt (08/10/06 11:56 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#277798 - 08/10/06 12:52 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: cxt]
Pong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 12
sorry, i got a little defnsive.. I live in Old Bridge NJ- its by Matawan... And PLEASE dont tell me ATA, I alredy go there and there's no swords.

However.. you say it is impossible to learn technique froma book, certain martial arts can be learned ENTIRELY from a book if necessary.Pressure Point Martial arts can be learned completely with diagrams, since they only need to tell you where to hit, and what shape your hand should be in, the rest can be substitued for a martial art you DO train in. AGAIN I live in OLD bridge NJ near matawan
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#277799 - 08/10/06 01:01 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Pong

Cool, lets see what can be found near there.

How close is Matawan to Madison??????

The whole PP discussion needs to taken up at a later time and in the thread for PP discussion.



Edited by cxt (08/10/06 01:13 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#277800 - 08/10/06 03:03 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: cxt]
Pong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/09/06
Posts: 12
i really dont know how close it is..
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#277801 - 08/10/06 03:21 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Schanne lives in NJ. He might have some ideas.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#277802 - 08/10/06 03:22 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Nobody is mocking you, although CXT was pretty emphatic about reiterating one of the points mentioned in the rules for the forum.

You can learn about martial arts from books, but you cannot learn martial arts from books. A book can never teach you timing, although it can describe the idea. A book can never make corrections. Technical pieces are used by the practitioners of an art to give a little deeper understanding of key principles, or as aids to memory. Without a deep understanding of the fundamentals, much of what is written will be meaningless or will be misleading. Especially if it has been translated by someone who may or may not understand the nuances of the language and the art in question.

You can learn more in an hour under the supervision of a qualified instructor than you can in a lifetime of studying from a book.

Anyway, this is a VERY widely held opinion. Feel free to check any of the other Budo forums. On this forum, it is not a topic open to debate. It is generally accepted fact and laid out in the forum rules.

Now with that out of the way. Seems I recall there are some very good training oppurtunities available in NK. Is Skoss out there somewhere?

I found this thread on Sword Forum International. It lists 6 different dojos at least.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8034&highlight=koryu+New+Jersey
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#277803 - 08/10/06 03:26 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Pong

Please look it up.

If Matawan is anywhere near Madison--there is a really good dojo there.

Charles also posted some really good leads on schools above.

Enough to get you started anyway.


Edited by cxt (08/10/06 03:31 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#277804 - 08/10/06 09:11 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
According to Mapblast it's around 30 odd miles away. Quite a bargain really considering what a rare oppurtunity training with Skoss-sensei would be. Of course, we don't even know if he is looking for additional students right now, but it's worth the effort to find out.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#277805 - 08/11/06 11:19 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Charles Mahan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Charles

I looked some the links you posted.

There seem to be a lot of good options in that neck of the woods.

I don't know if there are any openings either---but if I was only 30-40 miles away, you could be damn sure I would be finding out!!!!!!!!


Edited by cxt (08/11/06 11:23 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#277806 - 08/12/06 09:00 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< I believe Kendo is available where i live >>

That is a step in the right direction. Check them out. Granted, a shinai is not a metallic sword but the techniques and defenses can be very similar. Besides, they will/should also teach the Seitei Gata or Seitei Iai which does involve blades. The style would most likely be Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. At least you will be exposed to a genuine art not filtered through books and videos.

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#277807 - 08/14/06 06:35 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Pong

Where did you go????????

Lot of good tips and information on places to look for in your area.

You checking them out??????

Please let us know how yoru seach goes/is going.


Edited by cxt (08/14/06 06:36 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#277808 - 09/01/06 03:13 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Pong]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
Don't train in any style, you'll be much better off, look into Bruce Lee's work Jeet Kune Do to start off with, I think you'll find it, enlightening.

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#277809 - 09/01/06 04:44 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Woku]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

Don't train in any style, you'll be much better off, look into Bruce Lee's work Jeet Kune Do to start off with, I think you'll find it, enlightening.




Well, thank god for the opiniated newbie with the empty profile, else we just wouldn't know what to do, right?

Tell me, in what way would anyone be "better off" by winging it and ignoring formal instruction? I mean, I'm sure it's better for the fragile egos out there, but apart from that?

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#277810 - 09/01/06 07:03 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: splice]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
Who said I was newbie, and everyone here is opinionated, it is a forum after all Oh, and I'm not surprised your threatened, virtually no noe reads works like Jeet Kune Do, such works are a threa to stylized martial arts.

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#277811 - 09/01/06 07:05 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Woku]
alphawolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 137
Quote:

Who said I was newbie, and everyone here is opinionated, it is a forum after all Oh, and I'm not surprised your threatened, virtually no noe reads works like Jeet Kune Do, such works are a threa to stylized martial arts.


Man, if ONLY there was a thread on the index that said Jeet Kune Do.....
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#277812 - 09/01/06 07:32 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: alphawolf]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
I'd recommend not only reading the book, but actually studying Bruce Lee and his life. In his later years he spoke of his years of instruction as being a time when he learned about "ignorance". Bruce Lee was of course not the only person to ever advocate a no style approach, which you could argue is a style in and of itself, which it is not, but he was the most prolific. Basically he felt that ritualized movements, stylized forms, and set patterns of attack and defense simply locked a person into a never ending dance, lengthening the engagement, and ultimately severaly limiting the adaptability of one's movements in relation to others in combat.Notice in his later years how he wore clothes which had no affiliation with any martial arts style of any kind when training, or in his films. He took his pursuits very seriously. I had formed my own philosophy and beliefs long before reading this work, but when I discovered it, I felt very good that someone else other then myself shared these views, and many do. However they are a threat to the commerical and ego laden martial arts world, and, like Bruce Lee, who was scorned in his time, will be scorned now as well. I have spoken with many here in china, and even most professional Gung Fu practioners here have yet to read this work, so it doe's not surprise me that many here of not. A passing familiarity is one thing, and doe's not surprise me, but understanding and following this philosophy, that's another. Anyhow, nope, I have no style, is that a problem, obviously it is for some, oh well, thats life. As long as you respect my opinions' I'll respect yours. Just too much nonsense and fancy gobbly gook for me.


Edited by Woku (09/01/06 07:38 AM)

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#277813 - 09/01/06 09:42 AM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Woku]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
So far as I've been able to determine, Bruce Lee was not advocating anything that more traditional styles don't advocate. He was just a fan of skipping all the stuff in the middle. All styles that I've ever heard anythign about advocate reaching a level in training where the student is able to move freely from one movement to the next, from one attack to the next without being boxed in by the particular techniques of the system. The difference is that that point does not come for a LONG way into training usually. The belief is that you must first learn the basics of how to do things before you can reach that point. Those basics must be drilled into muscle memory so that you can forget about them.

Any spas can move freely in a fight and do whatever pops into mind. There must be some basis for how to go about things or the student will always be off balance, generate little power, misjudge distance, have poor hasuji, etc.


Edited by Charles Mahan (09/01/06 09:50 AM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#277814 - 09/02/06 12:23 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
I would say charles you have mininterpreted his teaching. He was not teaching to do away with the stuff in the middle. No forms, no fixed fighting positions, none of the gobbly gook that makes a style. I think yuo need to break down and analyze what it is thats makes a "style" beforer you actually try and talk to use about what Bruce Lee's intent was. No offense, but your grasp is very much on the surface of this philosophy, and you need further understanding. Basically you need to get your head out of your ego. Anyhow, I welcome talking to you when you can more thoroughly discuss the subject with me.

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#277815 - 09/02/06 07:21 PM Re: what style should i train in? [Re: Woku]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

. No offense, but your grasp is very much on the surface of this philosophy, and you need further understanding.



No offense taken. You are quite correct, my understanding of Bruce Lee's teachings is pretty limited to the kind of stuff you and others like you have posted, combined with various documentaries where he talks about it. That's about the extent of my knowledge on the topic. I disagree that I need further understanding. I need no such thing. It is not relevant to my line of study.
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