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#277164 - 08/06/06 01:39 PM Carotid artery/Pres Point #
rimrag-alpha Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Phila. Pa. USA
Does anyone out there know the correct dim mak designation for the carotid artery? I THINK it is Stomach 9 OR 12.
_________________________
rimrag

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#277165 - 08/06/06 06:03 PM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: rimrag-alpha]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I believe the point you want is St 9. http://acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=ST9&meridian=Stomach Notice that it is NOT the carotid artery. The notation says AVOID the vasculature. It is NOT in the carotid sinus. This, I think, is one of the biggest mistakes or myths about this point. It is, if you read the notation below the diagram, on the anterior edge of the SCM. St. 10 is also on the muscle, anterior edge.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#277166 - 08/06/06 06:10 PM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: rimrag-alpha]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You may also wish to follow this fighting arts link and the fighting arts link within it for pressure point of the week. http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15832051/an/0/page/1#15832051
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#277167 - 08/06/06 06:12 PM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The problem with ST-9 is not that it's at the carotid artery, but that it's on top of the vagus nerve, which is connected to almost every major organ in the body, including the heart, liver, and kidneys. Even heart surgeons don't like to touch the vagus nerve because of it's "unintended consequences".

I've already hashed this over before on the forums, and one of the most certain ways to cause some kind of unexpected damage to someone is to whack the vagus nerve while trying to show off doing knockouts using ST-9. Acupuncturists will tell you point blank that the rememdy for a strike there is immediate needling of a number of other points to try to shortcut the nerve message sent to the vital organs.

In short... STAY AWAY FROM IT... unless you have a resident acupuncturist with their tools in the dojo with you.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#277168 - 08/07/06 05:16 AM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Agreed, for all practice situations. It's good to know it is there if you need to do some harm - otherwise, not worth it. There is plenty of room to play elsewhere.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#277169 - 08/08/06 07:55 AM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The problem with noveau-PP people is that they have to "see the point work" before they believe it will... which is extremely dangerous if you don't have the resources to fix the problems that can be caused. Permanent damage and failing health are a poor substitute for "taking a look" at how something works in training.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#277170 - 08/08/06 12:58 PM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
A strike to St 9 WILL impact the carotid even though it is not on the carotid or even in the sinus. It is in the neighborhood. Particularly for older ukes, you don't know what is floating around in their arteries or what damage you could do to the artery wall. Damage may not even manifest immediately. It could come up later.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#277171 - 08/08/06 02:38 PM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: wristtwister]
kunin Offline
hard-boiled aggression

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
I know that I risk inviting some bathroom humor here , but I'd like to reinforce Wristtwister's point about the vagus nerve from a nursing perspective. A major nerve of the parasympathetic system, the vagus is certainly nothing to fool with, and heart surgeons aren't the only medical professionals who are wary of messing with it.

As Wristtwister has pointed out, the vagus innervates almost every major organ in the body, including the colon. Nurses, who regularly have to help patients with affairs "down there," are taught to be wary while administering suppositories or performing "dig-stims" since such interventions can produce cardiac irregularities via stimulation of vagal nerve endings in the rectum—especially in patients with heart conditions. Far more than an odd bit of medical esoterica, this is a matter of serious concern and routine caution on the hospital floor.

Now, I'm not suggesting that people are going to be inordinately curious about checking out THIS particular pressure point in the dojo. I'm just calling attention to the fact that, for all our amazing powers of recovery, our bodies are weirdly delicate in ways that are likely to surprise us. When learning about things like nerve strikes and blood vessel sealing, therefore, we really do need to be careful, and we owe it to ourselves and to our training partners to hit the books and get something of a medical education in the process.
_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.' Nicole

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#277172 - 08/08/06 06:32 PM Re: Carotid artery/Pres Point # [Re: kunin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The most "usual" phenomenon of a vagus nerve strike is that it shuts down the colon, and the person is troubled with digestion problems and impactions for the rest of their lives, unless they receive remedial treatments immediately.

As you say, the end of the vagus nerve is near the anus, and that is one of the reasons that self defense MA teaches to kick the buttocks and anal area as well as the groin. It's either going to hit the groin, sciatic nerve, or vagus nerve... and nothing good is going to happen in any case there.

Best advice, is to leave the vagus nerve alone at either end... it can't cause anything but trouble...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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