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#276799 - 08/07/06 07:18 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: ANDY44]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Bad

The guy who threw them was bang out of order he could have settled the argument with out them.

As regards the technical aspect

He grabbed and then head butted. Stupid move.

One defence to a head butt is to lower the head so the head butter ends up getting head butted in the face.

The punch.

Took to long in throwing it.


Both were against un trained fighters
un prepared people so the techniques looked good.




I can't even be bothered to address some of the comments about the security you mentioned but the above comments are obviously coming from someone who's never worked a real door.

So for the technical. Firstly the headbutt. The guy used the ploy of deception to close the range, letting the girl distract the guy he nutted. In grabbing (apart from closing his hands down) he ragged him forwards whiplashing his neck jolting chin out for a perfect set up for being sparked out (like he was!). This guy has definately used his head before.

As for the punch the guy hardly broke out of a walk to do it. No winding up a punch and was able to throw it without taking a stance. Perfect short off angle shot that landed perfectly. I've meet very very few MA's who could repeat that feat. Most need to drop into a stance and raise their hands before they can fire. This guy had a perfect natural punch that done exactly what it was supposed. Again I've meet very few MA's who can fire from the hip like that.

This guy is an experienced fighter who knows how to use deception, positioning, natural body movement and escape routes. He'd demolish your average MA or self defence dude before they even knew they was in the fight. I've had the distinct pleasure of working and knowing some very effective street fighters who for the most part move like this guy did and have taken out trained fighters. I remember working a door with one very good friend who had a boxer squaring up with him whilst he was on the phone (ringing for backup) and sat the guy straight on his behind the hand he wasn't on the phone with.

In my opinion that clip shows more about the realities of how to knock someone out and fight in real life than virtually all of the MA clips I've seen (including my own!). My opinion is take notes and train to move like that. Anyone who isn't impressed with the technical side of that is severely deluded and hasn't got a clue what they are talking about, IMVHO ofcourse.

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#276800 - 08/07/06 11:18 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: Gavin]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Gavin

Some people have worked security. In fact part of one of their jobs was to sit and watch a TV screen in Glasgow and look for signs of poss violance.
Body language from would be violant scenarios.
The other part of the job was to be on the floor in a team re acting to the guys observations sitting in front of the TV screen .

And the guy in the vidio if his standard of fighting is all you have to bother with then you have an easy job.
The two guys he ko,d were total none fighters
If you say this guy could beat most MA,s then all I can say is the MA, s need better trained.

The head butt
The headbuttee the small guy had already seen the guy coming around the girl and backed off looking partly down
There is a pause between the guy getting his distance and the head butt.

The only reason the small guy was grabbed was because he didnt want to fight.
Look at his body language
Your head butter isnt quick enough.
You might think he is but I dont.

The punch
The guys reaction time from the the guy putting his hand in his shoulder to the strike was to long.
Again the guy who got punched showed no indication of fighting.

The guy who did the striking ran away but dumber than dumb forget it was on vidio.
So he is recorded head butting a guy who was moving backwards from him indicating he doesnt want to fight

Total guilty in court.

If the small guy was moving to him then he might of got away with it in court there again he might not have
Not so clued up then is he?

Do you have any more?
Except this time some what better fighters please and not guys who like to hit none fighters.
Regards punching!!
The late Sensies Kimura and Enoeda
had them down to a fine art.If you would like to improve your speed in your punching skills might I suggest you seek out any body who trained with him?

I have seen MA,s throw faster punches than your man.
Could name a few but I wont,
And regards he would demolish your average self defence dude?
I don think so least ways not the people I see training. Must be different levels of fighting around this country?

What pay are you doormen getting where you live??
Any jobs if it is high pay?


Just a small point I was wondering why are you looking towards so called
street fighters for inspiration? To work technique against perhaps.
I wouldnt want to move like your man.He is wide open and to slow .

If most green belts had a mind to strike someone who wouldnt hit back I think you would see the same results.
Difference is green belts wouldnt.Well the ones I know wouldnt

Ous





Edited by ANDY44 (08/07/06 11:47 AM)

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#276801 - 08/07/06 11:50 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: ANDY44]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
I concur with Gavin.

And Andy, u assume alot from a vid that is not perfect and no sound. U have no idea what the headuttee said or may have had in his hands. I would have hoped to acted the same with. I feel threatened, even with his hand down I am going to react. You have got to be stupid to put your hands on someone that just laid out your friend or whomever with a headbutt. As a defender you have no idea who the person is touching u, so you should react. I think he handled it perfectly.
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#276802 - 08/07/06 12:02 PM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: ANDY44]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
In most clubs and this one looks to be quite small most do not have a dedicated man on the cameras usually someone sitting on a reception with an eye on the cctv and the other dealing with members of the public. Either that or you have it in the managers office who will be more busy cashing up the till and watching that barstaff aren't skimming. Admitedly the guys who got done should and probably were being watched that being said from the intial contact of the 2 guys to point of assualt was about 15 seconds. This is hardly enough time to put a shout out and for the guys on the floor to asses the location the situation and those invovled let alone get to it.

Guy wasn't being aggressive? The bloke called it on, went to shift position when the bloke approached round his girlfriend and got nutted before he could reposiotion himself to give it some more verbal. The guys (who got nutted) body language to me was that of an oppotunist who gives it the mouth from a distance and cracks when confronted. A weasal who'd more than likely snipe you later on in the night.

As for the dumber than dumber getting caught on camera I very much doubt he thought about the cameras. Once the adrenaline dumps that would be the last thing. What he did, under stressful conditions was dispatch 2 guys very quickly (one of whom had called it on) and got out of dodge. Kudos goes out to the girl who was with him aswell. Slips very discreetly out of the frame. The video footage is not clear enough to secure a conviction and the girls who knew who he was discreetly left the scene. The old bill don't like work and I very much doubt whether this guy got nicked.

As for what makes better fighters? Those that don't fight and finish them before they start, exactly what you saw in these clips. The straightner or one on one is a myth. The more time you spend fighting the greater the odds of you getting hurt. You've got two choices, fight or flight. This guy picked fight and finished ir quickly.

The headbutt was fine in my books... ever thrown and landed one out of interest?

As for punching if I get a chance to hook uo with any of Kimura's students I will, all though no one has ever said my punches were slow. As for seeing faster MA's throw punches, completely agree. How many have you seen throw shots and land them positively on the street? As you were kind enough to suggest a path of further study I'll return with a suggest of reading some of Dennis Jones's stuff. Dennis is probably one of the best people I've trained with at explaining how to KO on the street, if you ever get a chance to train with him I'd highly recomend it.

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#276803 - 08/08/06 06:05 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: JasonM]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
The head butter wasnt threatend
The headbutter might have picked up the headbuttees body language wrongly.
Either way the headbutter approached /
went to the headbuttee
I dont think he handled it perfectly plenty of room for improvement in his fighting skills, for starters he is a rigth hand wonder, no gaurd when he punches, he punches off line, leaves him self wide open and has major flaws in his methods that would be picked up on by a seasoned expereinced fighter.

The only good thing is it would make a doormans job easier providing they were trained


Question is what would the headbutter types do if they were?



Edited by ANDY44 (08/08/06 06:38 AM)

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#276804 - 08/08/06 06:18 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: Gavin]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
The headbutt was fine in my books... ever thrown and landed one out of interest?

Yes I Have Gavin, enough of them.
But I am not going in to a testostorone over drive.I save that for the gym/dojo

HI there.Gavin
I will read the dennis jones article later thanks

I think you intended the vidio as a learning method so here are my thoughts.

The man the head butter made to many mistakes to be an experienced fighter. I have outlined what I think as regards the fighting/self defence aspect.

But
Again the head buttee did not want to fight
I donít agree with what the head butter did

Either way

His body language was strutting for a female.
Regards the head butter using the girl for cover he did at first then he got it wrong
He had nothing in his hand or made any move to attack the the headbutter.

Regards the technical aspect of this head butt he only got away with it because the head buttee was passive.
First mistake the headbutter did was to
Walk towards the head buttee using the girl as cover but then lost the cover allowing the head buttee to see his intentions and leaving his face wide open.

If the headbuttee had have been a fighter he could have got his first body weigth loaded strike in here.

Poss a right hand
The head butter was at this point at a disadvange in that the woman was in the way so all he would have had was a left hand arm shot.No weigth behind the punch because the woman was in the way. He had no use of his right fist, feet head etc.

There fore the head buttee could have won a confrontation at this point.
The headbutter continues around the girl showing the head buttee more of the head butters body /target area, groin face etc while still putting his self in to a bad position although now having the use of his left hand with weigth now available.Th head buttee is still at an advantage, he has full body weigth for his strikes.
The second mistake was the head butter positioned his self so that he allowed a person to be directly behind him,while facing the headbuttee..


Third mistake
Head butter still moving around the girl
Head butter gave the head buttee his face/neck/chin jaw/he was so close and wide open on his approach . His face angle was wrong..
Fourth mistake the head butters right punching hand was going to be interfered with by his to close positioning to the girl .
Fifth mistake the head butter has grabbed head butte with two hands, The head butter has lifted his own head up again giving his face chin neck to the headbuttee. The head butter is leaning slightly backwards with out neutralising the headbuttees hands while stepping back with his foot.
The had butt is thrown I will give the head butter his due he did seem to use use the top of his head to head butt with. He got that part correct. and the head buttee is pushed on to the floor.another correct move from the head butter.


The two men behind him try to stop him he brings up his fist from the hip to hit the smaller one

.
So he showed his intention
Slips in to a stance left foot forward no cover whats so ever. Gaven
The guy he is about to hit could have hit the headbutter here with a left hand he was wide open.He didnt because he didnt want to.
The head butter got the shot in

All in all a guy who has something,not much but im afraid it was against people who couldnt figth or didnt want to fight.

I dont think the headbuttee was capable of jumping anybody if he did he would have been a joke.
He was not a fighter
.

Give the headbutter some training he might become good.
But i am not sure his types should be trained.
.

Thanks Gavin.



Edited by ANDY44 (08/08/06 06:52 AM)

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#276805 - 08/08/06 07:28 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: ANDY44]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Proof is in the pudding with me. I've heard lots of people talk and break things down, explain the theory and then fail badly to land stuff when done so against a live resisting opponent in the dojo... take it to the street and the stuff goes out the window even more. My opinion is this is a great clip to look at on how to land shots in a live environment. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#276806 - 08/08/06 08:57 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: ANDY44]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
You saw the head butter made many mistakes. But he is the one that fled injury free. It comes down to if the headbutter felt threatened. We can watch and assume all we want, but have no idea on the words that were exchanged, etc.

Like Gavin said, we agree to disagree.
_________________________
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

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#276807 - 08/08/06 11:43 AM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: ANDY44]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Andy,

I've got to agree with the others and as Mr Moyer said, the headbutter is the one who walks away from the situation.

You've pointed out several mistakes the guy made, but I'd rather be the guy who makes loads of mistakes and walks away than the guy that is technically perfect and spends the night in hospital.
_________________________
http://www.semtexgym.co.uk/

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#276808 - 08/08/06 01:35 PM Re: Text book perfect! [Re: Gavin]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Proof is in the pudding with me. I've heard lots of people talk and break things down, explain the theory and then fail badly to land stuff when done so against a live resisting opponent in the dojo... take it to the street and the stuff goes out the window even more. My opinion is this is a great clip to look at on how to land shots in a live environment. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


Hi Gavin
I have heard the BS from theorists exactly as you describe
I have trained on seminars with BS people you describe.
But at the end of the day if I was in that situation( and I have been plenty of times) and an attack simular to that one was coming at me and I had to defend my self then the attackers commonly made fundimental street fighters mistakes would be his down fall.
These mistakes are common to lots of street fighters.

But as we say we will have to agree to disagree

As regards not coming up with the goods in the dojo

I train with a good set of lads.Gavin.

.
We avoid Bs where we train
To many experienced handy guys.
and some that arent.


Thanks




Edited by ANDY44 (08/08/06 02:02 PM)

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