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Max Online: 307 @ 02/21/13 09:36 AM
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#276757 - 08/09/06 04:42 AM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: ANDY44]
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Cruisin' for a bruisin'
Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 161
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Quote:
in the unlikly event that I encounter two guys with knives of a bat who are threatening me, when I am armed with a handgun, I will basically draw the handgun and make it clear that I will shoot them if they don't drop to their knees, and shoot them if needed.
Hi hows things?
In the likly event that in a country where carrying concealed weapons is allowed and the self defence laws are more clear cut. I see two guys with knives who are threatening me, when I am armed with a handgun, I would in a self defence situation shoot them .
then hit the deck and keep shooting.Roll over to check for any aggresoors from behind and keep shooting. 
While I am walking back to the drug store what are they gonna be doing with my back to them?
No argument no ploys no talk downs.
Ditto, im buyinga handgun as soon as im 21 and it would be perfectly legal to shoot them if you ahve to where I live
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#276758 - 08/09/06 05:20 AM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: Neko456]
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Revolutionary!
Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
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Hi hows things?
In a likely event that in a country where carrying concealed weapons is allowed and the self defence laws are more clear cut. I see two guys with knives who are threatening me, when I am armed with a handgun, I would in a self defence situation shoot them while dropping to the deck keep shooting.
Roll over, check for any aggressers from behind, and keep shooting untill they go down.
If I have only injured them and one of the would be attackers runs away then I stop shooting.
Because if he/she runs away and I shoot that changes the self defence laws.
After the event I do not go near them I phone the police
and I stay at a distance where I have as much cover as I can get.
Ok
Courts
I have just been and bought some stuff from a shop/store
Hope fully they had CCTV so I am on it peacefully purchasing things.
If not on CCTV then the reciept is in my pocket.
The store/shop worker saw me and poss other witnesses.
The people doing the threats are on or near my car
While I am walking back to the drug store what are they gonna be doing with my back to them?
When the police arrive they see knives
They see my car they see bodies.
They see me a distance from the threat.
I have to make sure that onlookers dont remove any evidence.
No argument no ploys no talk downs. I dont know who is around me apart from the attackers I can see.
Ous
Edited by ANDY44 (08/09/06 05:42 AM)
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#276759 - 08/09/06 01:59 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: ANDY44]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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That was an aggressive responce pending the situation no warning has to be given. But I have to question why drop and roll to fire?? Why not fire then side back, fire and step back? Look like you could move faster standing if you had to move.
Anyway that was a tough aggressive move. Against two forward aggressive attackers armed with knives. Really despite what law reports state most knifers respect a gun too much to advance upon it and will do what you say but may try to retreat or escape. It would take someone carzy or very skilled to try that.
Its a good move in that you survived, sometimes you can't be your brothers keeper, espeicailly if he is trying to kill or harm you.
This may get me in trouble again but Better triad by 12 then carried by 6. Not that I don't respect life, its just I really resepct mines!!!
Sometimes you got to do, what you got to do. Pending how close I may have given one command, "Take one more step with that knife and you are dead meat!!!' If there too close except for dropping top the ground, ditto.... if I had to & only if I had to.
If right upon you dropping to the ground might, move your vitals away from the knife.
Edited by Neko456 (08/09/06 02:00 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#276760 - 08/09/06 05:55 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: Neko456]
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Revolutionary!
Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
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This may get me in trouble again but Better triad by 12 then carried by 6. Not that I don't respect life, its just I really resepct mines!!!
Hi Neko.
Yes but I think i would apply a self defence strategy subject to the self defence laws for the area that I lived in.
In other word I acted according to the law to the best of my ability.
As far as Im concerned in a situation where anybody is threatend with a weapon then im afraid the person(s)threatening take the consequences.
The reason for hitting the deck is
I dont know who is behind me or around me.
If I am shouting or concentrating on people in front of me or waiting for them to leave etc who knows who else might appear.
They could just be a ploy.
In a way a distraction.
Either way that is the method I would use given that scenario and given the law that would be in the place where the scenario takes place.
Thanks
Andy
Edited by ANDY44 (08/09/06 06:04 PM)
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#276761 - 08/10/06 01:09 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: Neko456]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
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Quote:
That was an aggressive responce pending the situation no warning has to be given. But I have to question why drop and roll to fire?? Why not fire then side back, fire and step back? Look like you could move faster standing if you had to move.
I would tend to agree that dropping to the ground would be a viable tactic against assailants armed with firearms, assuming that we can't retreat. However, I wouldn't recommend it against knife-wielding assailants. Once we hit the ground we lose mobility, agility, and reaction time. Even if we we hit the assailants with multiple rounds there is nothing to say they won't continue their forward assault, and we would be sitting ducks. If there happened to be other assailants, especially to our rear, we would not be able to engage them due to the fact that our focus is on the threats to our front. Under stress we may have a tendency to go into tunnel vision and the easiest way to cope with tunnel vision is being able to move in order to see other potential threats.
Quote:
Anyway that was a tough aggressive move. Against two forward aggressive attackers armed with knives. Really despite what law reports state most knifers respect a gun too much to advance upon it and will do what you say but may try to retreat or escape. It would take someone carzy or very skilled to try that.
Actually there are many stories of criminals who have engaged gun-wielding victims while armed with only a knife. The truth is that assailants choose their intended victims pretty cautiously. In most cases they choose someone they think they can take, someone who is not physically or mentally prepared to fight back, or so they think. Criminals also know that a good majority of people who carry firearms will not shoot another human being even in self-defense. This gives the knife-wielding assailant the advantage because while the intended vicitm hesitates to pull the trigger the assailant closes the gap and taskes control. I have also heard many stories of weapon-wielding assailants rushing police officers who had their firearms out and ready to shoot. In one case I heard about, the assailant ran so hard into the officer that the barrel of the officer's gun left an imprint in the assailant's forehead. In other words he ran straight into the barrel of the gun without fear of being shot, and of course the officer didn't shoot. In short, I wouldn't bet my life on the idea that just displaying a firearm will stop the assault.
Quote:
Sometimes you got to do, what you got to do. Pending how close I may have given one command, "Take one more step with that knife and you are dead meat!!!' If there too close except for dropping top the ground, ditto.... if I had to & only if I had to.
If you are confronted with a knife-wielding assailant or two and you feel it's necessary to deploy your firearm I would not wait around giving them commands and hope they didn't attack. Anyone familiar with the Tueller Drill knows that a knife-wielding assailant can cover 21 feet and stab their intended victim in just under 1.5 seconds. Even if the firearm is out and you are able to get a round onto one of the threats there is still the potential for them to stab you based on their momentum alone. Not to mention that you may have to deal with a second attacker. While you are giving commands that delays your response time, if only for a split second. As we all know action beats reaction. If you ever thought you might find yourself in a situation such as this I would recommend checking out local and state laws beforehand. If you don't have a duty to retreat then you don't have a duty to give commands. As I am fond of pointing out, a firearm is a lethal force tool and should not be deployed if lethal force is not justified and especially if you are not willing to use it.
Steve Zorn, ICPS
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#276762 - 08/10/06 01:42 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: szorn]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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Szorn wrote - I have also heard many stories of weapon-wielding assailants rushing police officers who had their firearms out and ready to shoot. In one case I heard about, the assailant ran so hard into the officer that the barrel of the officer's gun left an imprint in the assailant's forehead. In other words he ran straight into the barrel of the gun without fear of being shot, and of course the officer didn't shoot. In short, I wouldn't bet my life on the idea that just displaying a firearm will stop the assault.
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------
If you are confronted with a knife-wielding assailant or two and you feel it's necessary to deploy your firearm I would not wait around giving them commands and hope they didn't attack. Anyone familiar with the Tueller Drill knows that a knife-wielding assailant can cover 21 feet and stab their intended victim in just under 1.5 seconds. Even if the firearm is out and you are able to get a round onto one of the threats there is still the potential for them to stab you based on their momentum alone.
Neko456 - Szorn you are correct in all your staticail data and scenarios. As I wrote a guy with a knife would have to be CRAZY or very skilled to approach another man armed with a gun. But on the real no one wants to die. In the numerous situation of Gun vs. Knife most knife assailants will back down and disarm from my personal experince. Obviously they haven't read or seen the same videos we have in LEO training. I've seen a gun presence and verbal command stop riots size group, of 15-20 people and place them in felony prone position until back up arrived. Nobody wants to to be 1st to get shoot. Even with the odds in their favor 6 (back then) rounds to 20. What happens in rare occassion or in training flims doesn't alway happen in real situation, but they make us cautious and better prepared because of this awarness.
The 7 yards Gun vs. Knife is based on the gunman staying 7 yards away, but if he increase the distance or step behind a desk place obstabcles in his path or just walks the circle he can get off several rounds rather then standing there thinking that the gun will repell or stop assailant. Training should increase the odds of survival not handcuff us to defeat.
Now if a guy plans on trying to kill you with a knife/gun at 7 yards and attacks, it near impossible to stop him, if you stand still. But if you increase the distance add obstacles it can give you time to do what has to be done.
You are right most people have a problem using deadly force to save their own life. I can betcha I ain't one of them.
Edited by Neko456 (08/10/06 02:43 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#276763 - 08/10/06 10:27 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: szorn]
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Revolutionary!
Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
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Hi there. All I am stating here is based on a hyperthetical situation. of app 25 yards. What i said earlier was shoot while dropping to the ground roll as in roll on to my back and observe any attackers from the rear/side /elswhere and keep shooting. If Im am going to be running about then any poss attacker I havent seen from behind are going to nail me, If the attackers have knifes then I would automaticaly assume they have guns. But then this scenario is getting to hyperthectical Im not sure what kind of ammunition you use but the ammunition I have used if i were to use it in a self defence/ legal defence against armed attackers then I doubt very much that anybody is going to keep runing at me.
Edited by ANDY44 (08/10/06 10:28 PM)
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#276764 - 08/11/06 12:14 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: Neko456]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
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Quote:
Neko456 - Szorn you are correct in all your staticail data and scenarios. As I wrote a guy with a knife would have to be CRAZY or very skilled to approach another man armed with a gun. But on the real no one wants to die. In the numerous situation of Gun vs. Knife most knife assailants will back down and disarm from my personal experince. Obviously they haven't read or seen the same videos we have in LEO training. I've seen a gun presence and verbal command stop riots size group, of 15-20 people and place them in felony prone position until back up arrived. Nobody wants to to be 1st to get shoot. Even with the odds in their favor 6 (back then) rounds to 20. What happens in rare occassion or in training flims doesn't alway happen in real situation, but they make us cautious and better prepared because of this awarness.
I would agree that as an LEO you may have different experiences and I would expect that to be the case. However, what holds true for an LEO doesn't alwasy hold true for a civilian. I have heard many many stories of armed civilians being charged and disarmed by unarmed assailants. I have also heard many stories of knife-wielding assailants charging armed civilians. In most cases an assailant may automatically assume that a police officer will shoot them, even if they won't. However, as I stated before the majority of civilians will not shoot and that can easily be recognized by the average bad guy.
Quote:
The 7 yards Gun vs. Knife is based on the gunman staying 7 yards away, but if he increase the distance or step behind a desk place obstabcles in his path or just walks the circle he can get off several rounds rather then standing there thinking that the gun will repell or stop assailant. Training should increase the odds of survival not handcuff us to defeat.
Actually the Tueller Drill has been tested by officers standing still as well as moving. The results were very similar. Also, we were talking about 2 knife-wielding assailants which makes these things even more difficult. I do agree that putting any kind of barrier between us and the bad guy is a positive thing. However, this goes back to training as you mentioned. Most people are not trained to do this and in some cases there may not be anything to use as a barrier. In other cases there may not be enough time to seek a barrier. As was figured out through the Tueller Drill, people need to have more to fall back on than just a firearm. When the person becomes firearm fixated, even when moving, they tend to lose sight of the totality of circumstances.
Quote:
Now if a guy plans on trying to kill you with a knife/gun at 7 yards and attacks, it near impossible to stop him, if you stand still. But if you increase the distance add obstacles it can give you time to do what has to be done.
You are right most people have a problem using deadly force to save their own life. I can betcha I ain't one of them.
I agree that we should never stand still when confronted with any type of attack. However, what if circumstances do not allow rereat or lateral mobility? In such a situation if all we are taught to do is move, seek cover, and use our firearm we are in for a quick death. However, if we are taught to adapt to the situation with several simple but effective options we greatly increase our survival odds.
Even if we are lucky enough to find ourselves in a textbook perfect situation- we have time to create distance, we have nearby barriers, we successfully deploy our firearm, and we are able to acquire perfect shot placement this doesn't mean that we can't still be severly injured or killed by any of the assailants. A firearm is not a guaranteed equalizer, as much as we might like it to be. To sum up an FBI research project- 'Reliable and reproducible incapacitation is not possible with any handgun bullet. Only a gunshot wound to the brain or significant bodily disruption as in explosions can accomplish this. Even if the heart is destroyed the individual has enough oxygen in the brain for full and complete voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds.' In other words, as I said before just hitting the threat with a bullet will not automatically slow or stop their forward momentum.
Steve Zorn, ICPS
edited to fix quote
Edited by MattJ (08/11/06 12:21 PM)
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#276765 - 08/11/06 02:59 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: szorn]
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Revolutionary!
Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
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Only a gunshot wound to the brain or significant bodily disruption as in explosions can accomplish this. Even if the heart is destroyed the individual has enough oxygen in the brain for full and complete voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds.' In other words, as I said before just hitting the threat with a bullet will not automatically slow or stop their forward momentum.
Hi There.
The fact that shooting is very specific is one of the reasons people do or rather should spend a vast amount of time on the ranges.
And training in scenerio based situations. both dry and live.
I can see your point about untrained civilians.
In the end in a live situation the reactions and the instincts of a person under such kind of pressure have to be good
There are caliberes of bullets that will stop a human regardless which parts of the body it hits.(within reason)
.
Thanks
Andy
Edited by ANDY44 (08/11/06 03:05 PM)
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#276766 - 08/12/06 01:30 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: ANDY44]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
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Quote:
Hi There.
The fact that shooting is very specific is one of the reasons people do or rather should spend a vast amount of time on the ranges.
And training in scenerio based situations. both dry and live.
Unfortunately, range training has little to do with the chaos of real firearm altercations. Training in defensive & tactical firearms should be only about 25% or less range training and about 75% or more force-on-force simulations with Simunitions or airsoft replicas.
Quote:
There are caliberes of bullets that will stop a human regardless which parts of the body it hits.(within reason)
Andy
Again, I tend to disagree. To emphasize the FBI research again-'Reliable and reproducible incapacitation is NOT possible with ANY handgun bullet.' Your statement goes back to the fact that people tend to overemphasize the firearm and think of it as an absolute fight stopper. Unfortunately this has been disproven in combat on the streets as well as on the battlefields during every war.
Steve Zorn, ICPS
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