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#276737 - 08/03/06 12:09 PM
If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 hand.
Example Leaving a convience store your car is blocked by 3 street thugs, one ask if this is your car, then for money armed with a knife or club. The distance is about 20-25 yards
Would you take him/them on hand 2 hand?
Run back into the store, to call 911?
Defend your grounds by pulling your weapon?
Of course distance would need to be considered. And the threat recognized ahead of time, is key.
In the past I've defused such situations by casually moving my coat/shrit to show my badge and gun. Or just moving the gun from conceal to visible not out as I walk 25 yards away toward my vehicle. Recongonizing the threat is key, too close in and its a near lethal situaion. Though on the street most knifers won't approach a gun even at 5 yards. I guess they haven't seen the videos.
How many think this is not the Martial art way and one should take these guys on h 2 h. Or run back into the store.
Running back into the store would work, if they don't follow you in. Now you and the store attendant maybe threaten.
I ask because I'd like to know how others would handle such an incident. These guys are blocking your means of escape and threatening your personal safety.
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#276738 - 08/03/06 12:24 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
[Re: Neko456]
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Sleepy-ninja
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 312
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
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I would retreat back into the store for 2 reasons.
1 it would be more likely that the events would be recorded by a camera.
2 it would be good testamony in court later on if I was able to show that I initally retreated from the confrontation.
Once inside the store I would use whatever means nessessary to defend myself ,if I thought I needed the weapon I would not hesitate to use it but only as a last resort.
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#276739 - 08/03/06 02:56 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
[Re: Neko456]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 88
Loc: USA
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This would depend on totality of circumstances. Obviously going H2H against 3 assailants is not an ideal situation, especially if one or more is armed.. Escape would be the option of choice. Running into the store creates distance, buys a second or two to regain your composure. It is also provides access to a phone for calling 911. It also gives you access to witnesses and possibly helpers. Lastly, it provides you with plenty of environmental barriers that can be placed between you and the threats. If escape is not an option I would consider attempting de-escalation before resorting to use of my weapon. Only as a last resort would I employee empty-hand skills against 3 assailants who are possibly armed.
Steve Zorn, ICPS
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#276740 - 08/04/06 10:26 AM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
[Re: Neko456]
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Member
Registered: 11/28/05
Posts: 96
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Running into the store without hesitation. Inside, call Police or setting a defense plan.
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#276741 - 08/04/06 10:52 AM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
[Re: szorn]
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Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific
Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15629
Loc: York PA. USA
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Quote:
This would depend on totality of circumstances. Obviously going H2H against 3 assailants is not an ideal situation, especially if one or more is armed.. Escape would be the option of choice. Running into the store creates distance, buys a second or two to regain your composure. It is also provides access to a phone for calling 911. It also gives you access to witnesses and possibly helpers. Lastly, it provides you with plenty of environmental barriers that can be placed between you and the threats. If escape is not an option I would consider attempting de-escalation before resorting to use of my weapon. Only as a last resort would I employee empty-hand skills against 3 assailants who are possibly armed.
Ditto.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin
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#276742 - 08/04/06 12:25 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: szorn]
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Member
Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
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Quote:
This would depend on totality of circumstances. Obviously going H2H against 3 assailants is not an ideal situation, especially if one or more is armed.. Escape would be the option of choice. Running into the store creates distance, buys a second or two to regain your composure. It is also provides access to a phone for calling 911. It also gives you access to witnesses and possibly helpers. Lastly, it provides you with plenty of environmental barriers that can be placed between you and the threats. If escape is not an option I would consider attempting de-escalation before resorting to use of my weapon. Only as a last resort would I employee empty-hand skills against 3 assailants who are possibly armed.
Steve Zorn, ICPS
I agree, also, I woouldn't go h2h if they were armed or I was outnumbered. realistically however, if someone were going to demand your car, wallet, etc. they would probably be closer than 25 yards or even feet. they would more than likely be much closer. at 25 yards you have more than enough distance to run and they would have to shout their demands loudly so you could hear them which doesn't work in their favor.
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#276743 - 08/04/06 03:48 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: Glockmeister]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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25 yards is not that far away its close to 25 steps you could talk in a normal voice at night and hear almost everyword they said. 25-18 yards is the approximate distance from the Gas pumps to the front door of most 7-11 like stores in and around my home town.
The attempt is a scare tactic to startle you and make you make a domestic decision, by stating their demands early. This gives you time to anttey up/pay their demands. And they get to see, what their up against.
I think they were just wanting money not the car. They were trying to use fear that to get to your car, you need to pay to leave. Usually if they want your car its gone before you come back to the pumps, Or they will ask for the keys. Sometimes you can walk up, and catch them hotwiring or jimmy the lock of your ignition.
Strong arm robbery and mugging is close range hands on, is not the same as car theft or Robbery. Robbery can be done without touching your person. Robbery can be a threat or note, that I'll do something to you and yours if you don't give me what I want, and they run.
Despite what they wanted or the exact distance the threat existed how would you handled it?
Edited by Neko456 (08/04/06 03:52 PM)
_________________________
DBAckerson
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#276744 - 08/04/06 07:08 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand
[Re: Neko456]
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Member
Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
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At 25 yards away i would simply go back to the store. I still am not buying that 25 yards would be an ideal distance for a car theft considering you are coming out of the store, in order for them to take your car, they would obviously expect you to walk TO THEM and hand over your keys which nobody in their right mind would do. I doubt many carjackings and people strong arming people take place at that distance in fact I dont know of any but that's just my experience. One the other hand if I would be crowded and could get away because they had me cornered and one or more obviously had a weapon, then I am going for my pistol. Problem is, what if I have one armed in front of me and the other two are behind me and I cannot see if they are armed or not, then I obviously would have to come up with something else. If I were coming out of a store and saw some people near my car I would loudly and clearly direct them to move away from it, for one, it also alerts others of the situation and also helps if in fact it turns into a use of force and you need witnesses that will claim they heard you tellign them to leave you and your vehicle alone.
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#276745 - 08/04/06 07:14 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
[Re: szorn]
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hard-boiled aggression
Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 73
Loc: - cloud-hidden in the big city
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Quote:
This would depend on totality of circumstances. Obviously going H2H against 3 assailants is not an ideal situation, especially if one or more is armed.. Escape would be the option of choice. Running into the store creates distance, buys a second or two to regain your composure. It is also provides access to a phone for calling 911. It also gives you access to witnesses and possibly helpers. Lastly, it provides you with plenty of environmental barriers that can be placed between you and the threats. If escape is not an option I would consider attempting de-escalation before resorting to use of my weapon. Only as a last resort would I employee empty-hand skills against 3 assailants who are possibly armed.
Steve Zorn, ICPS
ABSOLUTELY DITTO! This sort of thing isn't a pissing contest, after all! And should things go to south, with someone ending up maimed or permanently prone, just consider how ugly that really is. Sometimes, admittedly, we’re given little choice in such situations, and—yeah! Better the bad guy than me, if it comes to that … Still, I can’t help but wonder whether my purse or wallet—much less some sense of personal face—is worth anyone’s life in the larger scheme of things.
The original post seems to assume that only one of the three assailants is armed, but I sure wouldn't want to make such an assumption in reality. The art of misdirection isn't confined to stage magicians, but can be practiced almost as easily by a group of street thugs as well. To relate an example from my own experience, I was confronted many years ago by a young kid whose companion was wielding a large metal rod. Between that and the kid’s attempts at direct eye contact, their strategy was to keep me from noticing the large knife that the kid was holding down behind his thigh. I noticed it only because of some previous weapons training so that I knew automatically where to look. Even then, it was only a matter of providence that I was able to escape without getting cut or much, much worse. (There was, by the way, a third kid, too, and I was never able to get a sense of what he was packing!)
There’s also, in any situation, the social and legal environment to consider, always a third party to any confrontation on the street. As Mr. Zorn says, you have to look at the totality of circumstances, and these include any number of factors that abstract discussions like this generally don’t take into account. What’s the neighborhood like? Whose turf are you treading on? And who are you in relation to where you happen to be? If you’re able to flash a security badge and gun at 25 paces, a lot of would-be assailants aren’t going to risk assaulting what, to their perceptions, just might be a police officer. If you flashed the gun without the badge—well, in some neighborhoods, with some guys, that just might be a an invitation to a capping! You’d have to ask yourself whether you were really ready for that level of engagement.
Then, too, there are legal consequences to consider with respect to both criminal and civil liabilities. Changlab’s perspective on the evidentiary angle shows some savvy thinking, in my opinion. Like it or not, covering one’s a## with the law has become an important concern with respect to self-defense. Whatever we might think is a just or appropriate use of force on an intuitive level, the legal system plays its own game by its own rules.
Sorry to get so worked up, but the purpose of martial arts training, as far as I’m concerned, is not about cultivating some misbegotten sense of personal badass, much less out-and-out stupidity. No disrespect meant to Neko456, who was simply soliciting people’s opinions, but too many young men end up dying in my neck of the woods because of bad ideas about what it means to be a “man.” It would be a travesty, in my opinion, if our arts were construed in any way so as to contribute to such unhappiness.
Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox now …
_________________________
'If you have an honest mind, everywhere is a dojo.'
Nicole
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#276746 - 08/04/06 08:19 PM
Re: If armed how many would use the weapon or hand 2 h
[Re: kunin]
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Professional Poster
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
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Glock.. stated - At 25 yards away i would simply go back to the store. I still am not buying that 25 yards would be an ideal distance for a car theft considering you are coming out of the store, in order for them to take your car.
Thats good bc, I'm not selling that. I never mentioned they want the car, I'm saying they didn't want the car, they wanted money, using the car as bait. I did mention in a car theft, that they don't need your keys to steal your car. I did mention that sometimes they take or ask for the keys.
And you are right during a car jacking they snacht you out of your car and take a running car while stopped at the light. Or take the keys and push you down, start the car and drive off.
But the consenus is to go back into the store and call 911 or call 911 from your cell phone. And use the distant to make good your exit. I like Glocksmester verbal command to clear his vehicle at 25 yrds he not in danger and they may feel like they have the wrong guy. And back away or leave. Maybe.
As for causally showing a badge or gun, it worked. Sure without a badge they could take that as a threat, but most thugs aren't wanting a head up fight thats why they travel in packs. Being a cop isn't always a safe call, some gangs next step up, is to shoot a cop or guard and get away. But usually its not done heads up. Be that as it may.
You run inside the store and they follow you inside the store. What now?
You see the cops coming at the corner, two of the thugs take off and get through the door, leaving one trying leave. Do you attempt to stop him? Of course all this happens in seconds.
I like the wise and obviously mature Martial art mind to avoid danger and squash the mucho stuff.
Edited by Neko456 (08/04/06 08:20 PM)
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DBAckerson
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