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#276506 - 08/02/06 12:17 PM Bokken care and maintenance?
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
I asked my instructor what I should do to clean and repair(if necessary) a bokken. He told me that his instructor said that the samurai used bokken so they would not damage their swords, and that a bokken is meant to get damaged and all. I then tried online for bokken care, one site said I should remove excess wax and oils, and then use a red-colored wood floor wax. Anyone know what I should do to clean my bokken and keep it looking nice.
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#276507 - 08/02/06 12:44 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Saarna

Getting a bit worried about you.

You keep asking people about stuff your teacher should be able to help you with.

Starting to "sound" as if they don't know---or you don't trust them.

1st--the samurai DID NOT use bokken so they would not hurt their swords---they mainly used them so they would not hurt each OTHER---still very dangerous BUT "safer" than training with live blades.

(sure it also protected their swords--but that was not the main reason)

2nd--a good quality bokken should NOT come with "excessive oils and waxs" usually only the cheap one's come covered with oils and waxs and laquers.

3td--I'd steer clear of using "red colored floor wax" on your bokken.

Every few months just wipe them down with a good quality, clear wood or mineral oil--some of them might darken the wood but they work fine.

Should not really need to "clean" your bokken--if you feel the need, just wipe them down with a quality wood cleaner--nothing special.

4-After paired pactice its a good idea to run your hand along the bokken to check for splinters--you should be finding "dents" from the contact with other bokken, that is "normal"--but splinters need to be addressed.
Small splinters can be easily sanded out--and you should do so before the next practice.

Cracked or badly splinted bokken should be gotten rid of or cut down to smaller weapons.

5-Do not lean your bokken--or any other wooden training weapon, up against a wall.
Even the good ones can warp faster than you would belive possible.
They go stright up against the wall, flat on the floor, in supported racks etc.
Some folks use a small eyelet and hang them up.

I have seen people prop their bokken or staff up in a corner for months at a time with no harm done at all.
And I have seen people warp their training weapons over the space of weekend.

NEVER hurts to be careful.

6-Wooden weapons--such a bokken, should be kept in a bag when not in use--helps protect them.

Just some tips.


Edited by cxt (08/02/06 01:26 PM)

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#276508 - 08/02/06 01:08 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: cxt]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I agree with everything CXT wrote. The red floor wax strikes me as a bad idea, and something perhaps written with those cheap $8 red laquered bokuto in mind. Where did you see those instructions? Could you provide a link?


Edited by Charles Mahan (08/02/06 01:09 PM)
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#276509 - 08/03/06 01:22 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
It was in an email I got from a website that I think was called www.aznarenterprise.com and it was for maccasar ebony weapons. It didn't sound like a good idea to use floor polish but is there an oil or wax made for bokkens?
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#276510 - 08/03/06 02:40 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Saarna

No, there really is no "special" oil or wax for bokken.

You don't need one.

One of the problems with weird/exotic woods is that they sometimes DO need "special" care and handleing.

Some woods polish up to nearly a "glass-like" finish, and they can sometimes be almost as fragile.

(when I have some time I'll tell you about a buddy of mine that used a very $ $ $, polished length of antique ebony for paired partner practice ---or the guy that used a grade of walnut usually set aside for fine furniture to make a bo staff--looked cool---but so NOT worth the price.)

Do yourself favor and stick to the normal white oaks and ashs and hickorys.

Its not about the "wood" its about the training.


Edited by cxt (08/03/06 02:47 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#276511 - 08/06/06 02:13 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: cxt]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
Ok, what about tung and boiled linseed oil. I've heard a lot about those. And you were talking about warping of the wood. Would a stand like this prevent warping on bokken? http://www.karatedepot.com/sw-st-20.html if not could you point me towards one that can hold multiple weapons and will prevent warping of wood?
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“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276512 - 08/07/06 03:29 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
saarna

That looks like it would work just fine.

So would just laying it on the floor.

Tung oil would work fine.

Be careful with the type of linseed oil you use--some of it was used to waterproof cloth back in the day (oilcloth) and tend to get a bit hard as it "sets."

Your best bet is just a decent quality wood oil, which y ou can get in pretty much any hardware store.

Your bokken might "darken" a bit thu multiple applications--that totally normal.

Just wipe the bokken down throughly every now and then--let it stand until "dry" and put it back into the bag.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#276513 - 08/07/06 08:05 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: cxt]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
where can I find tung and linseed oil. I tried safeway and homedepot, neither had it.
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“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276514 - 08/08/06 12:08 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
I just bought a can (screw top) of BOILED linseed oil at the local hardware store (Ausable Forks, Adirondacks). Used it on my buddy's picnic table to protect it from the weather. Just remember to wipe off the excess and rub the wood down well afterwards.

BTW Boiled linseed oil comes that way. DO NOT BOIL IT. ;-)

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#276515 - 08/08/06 08:46 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Saarna

Did Home Depot have any "wood oil?????????????"

Check the wood products section of Home Depot--they should have TONS of various products for the care of wood.

What they are for should be on the lables.



Edited by cxt (08/08/06 08:48 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#276516 - 08/08/06 11:39 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
Richard_Norris Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

where can I find tung and linseed oil.




Look for them at woodworking stores, if you have any locally. They are more likely to have them without additives, which aren't likely to be good for you.

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#276517 - 08/08/06 11:42 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Richard_Norris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Art supply stores as well. I get a really nice, pure, linseed oil, from a local business that caters to artists.

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#276518 - 08/08/06 12:08 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: harlan]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
Would Osh have them? Home depot doesn't so I'm not sure if any of the other hardware stores would.
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“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276519 - 08/08/06 03:54 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
Home Depot and Lowes don't generally have anything useful for blades, bokken, scabbards, or any other fine craftsmanship work. Find a good hardware store in your area, not one of the main ones. For our Dallasites, I would suggest Elliot's Hardware. Ask around town for good local stores, you'd be suprised what you can find.
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#276520 - 08/08/06 07:41 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Benjamin1986]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
My favorite thing to use on my bokken periodically is orange oil and beeswax. It is a mix that can be had at the local unfinished furniture store, or ordered on-line. It penetrates well, finishes nicely, and smells good too.
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Paul

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#276521 - 08/09/06 01:47 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: pgsmith]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
ANd that would make the wood stronger? And which do I apply first?
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276522 - 08/09/06 12:09 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
It does not necessarily make the wood "stronger". Any good oil soaks into the grain. There it lubricates the wood, making it less brittle and less prone to cracking, while keeping moisture out.
Beeswax? I do not know, except it can get very sticky.

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#276523 - 08/09/06 02:05 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: iaibear]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
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Paul

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#276524 - 08/09/06 03:24 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: pgsmith]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
Wood the orange oil act as a sort of finish? Or are tung/linseed oil better?
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276525 - 08/09/06 05:18 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
Richard_Norris Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/06
Posts: 43
Quote:

Wood the orange oil act as a sort of finish? Or are tung/linseed oil better?




Eh - there's a lot of personal preference there. All of these treatments protect wood (whatevers) from the effect of changing humidity, which obviously can't be avoided. Lemon and orange oils are light and very penetrant; tung oil is still penetrant but does polymerize a little more at the surface, and (boiled) linseed oil will largely polymerize at the surface. The beeswax also has its effects at the surface. The oils don't dry, per se (it's not evaporation), they polymerize in the wood cells and provide essentially a barrier to moisture. Linseed and beeswax will leave more surface residue (which can be wiped off at application). It's easy to use them in combination as per the earlier link, no need to make successive applications.

RN

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#276526 - 08/09/06 10:14 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Richard_Norris]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
Quote:


Eh - there's a lot of personal preference there. All of these treatments protect wood (whatevers) from the effect of changing humidity, which obviously can't be avoided. Lemon and orange oils are light and very penetrant; tung oil is still penetrant but does polymerize a little more at the surface, and (boiled) linseed oil will largely polymerize at the surface. The beeswax also has its effects at the surface. The oils don't dry, per se (it's not evaporation), they polymerize in the wood cells and provide essentially a barrier to moisture. Linseed and beeswax will leave more surface residue (which can be wiped off at application). It's easy to use them in combination as per the earlier link, no need to make successive applications.

RN




ummm...I don't really know what polymerize means. Could it be absorbed??? What are the benefits of these different oils then?
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276527 - 08/10/06 10:21 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
saarna

You are waaaaaaayyyyyy overthinking this.

These are questions your teacher should be able answer for you.

If he/she does not know the answers, can't steer you in the right direction, give you help and guidence----then maybe you should be re-thinking your choice to study swords with them at all.

Don't mind helping---

But your asking questions which have been answered several times over already.


Edited by cxt (08/10/06 10:27 AM)

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#276528 - 08/10/06 11:55 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: cxt]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
My teacher doesn't have experience in making bokkens, and as far as I know, he doesn't even clean his bokken.
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“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276529 - 08/10/06 11:58 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Saarna

Lots of folks don't know how to MAKE a bokken.

But anyone that uses one should know that they need to be oiled every now and then.

If they don't know that much then are you sure that they are the best person to be learning sword from???


Edited by cxt (08/10/06 12:05 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#276530 - 08/10/06 01:01 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: cxt]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
I'm not actually in a iaido class. On the side I do some ammount of training and my instructor for kempo helps me with that.
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“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#276531 - 08/10/06 01:04 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Saanr

Maybe you should be asking the people running the iaido class.

If your "kempo" teacher knows very little about swords, care and maintanice, use etc----then maybe he is not really "helping" you at all.

Skill in one art does not automatically translate into skill with another.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#276532 - 08/13/06 10:08 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: cxt]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
I'd have to drive about an hour to ask them anything and that seems like a waste of time unless I enrolled in it but I'd have to drive an hour each time to go there. As I said, my Iaido training is on the side to my normal training.
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#276533 - 08/15/06 11:10 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I'm not really sure why you'd need to care for your bokken. I've been abusing mine for years now and I've never once oiled it or attempted to keep it somewhere dry, etc. This also includes striking various hard objects with it at close to full force. It's not developed a single crack although it certainly has become quite dented. All in all though, it's just not quite as pretty, it's lost no functionality whatsoever.

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#276534 - 08/22/06 11:31 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
Kendo_Noob Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 22
Loc: Wisconsin
why don't you just join an Iaido class then?
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#276535 - 09/01/06 03:02 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Saarna]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
Actually I have used both linseed oil and tun oil, tung oil is much better. However to take care of your boken you need to sand the blade on ocassion. It sounds like your teacher doesn't know much about bokens. You need to get yourself a variet of differing sandpaper. Coarse, medium, and fine will do really. After you use it use the fine sand paper on the blade, then oil it, every time. If you have one of the cheaper red oak, thats covered in varnish, they do that for a reason. It's so the wood does not dry out, get brittle, and crack. It amazes me bhow little knowledge there is on here about something so simple. Anyhow, get a 3 dolloar sanding block, it will have a grip, rubber on the other end, and clasps on both ends to clip the paper on tightly. You only need to sand it to remove and of the raised areas, do not voer sand. You want the dents to remain, they are areas where the wood has compressed without seperating from the surrounding grain. However the raised edges aruond the dent, if any, have, abnd need to be sanded away, or the could become chips, and cracks, which can lead to the wood breaking. I have bought 12 dollar boken that, proplery maintained, lasted a student for 200 hours of sparring and still had not broken. However this is not true of all bokens, however, with proper maintenence your boken will last many times longer. Just remember, don'y over sand, always oil after sanding, and take good care of it. Hope that helps, and stay away from the linseed oil. Oh, and you can find tung oil in the paint section of home depot. Good day.

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#276536 - 09/01/06 09:14 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Woku]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
You're experience has been somewhat different than mine. The knife store cheapos are great for solo waza. They'll last forever. For kumitachi, they are worthless to the point of being dangerous. They break. The grain of the wood is just to wide. The wood isn't very dense and thus somewhat brittle. They don't hold up well over time. A good white oak bokuto, such as the one's Kiyota sells for around $30 are beaters with a much tighter grain. They'll last a goodly long time. No need for sanding. Best of all they won't break during kumitachi leaving a nasty jagged end for someone to get hurt on.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#276537 - 09/02/06 01:14 AM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Subedei]
ErikTracy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 17
Quote:

I'm not really sure why you'd need to care for your bokken. I've been abusing mine for years now and I've never once oiled it or attempted to keep it somewhere dry, etc. This also includes striking various hard objects with it at close to full force. It's not developed a single crack although it certainly has become quite dented. All in all though, it's just not quite as pretty, it's lost no functionality whatsoever.




That's been my experience as well. I've gone thru two quality white oak bokken for about 10 years of practice involving paired patterns of hard knocks and didn't have to sand or oil at all. $35 per bokken and years and years of weekly use and smacks.

Add up the time and labor in sanding and the extra bucks for oil....too much effort for me. I suppose if you want to obsess over stuff like that - whatever floats your boat - or bokken in oil

Erik

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#276538 - 09/02/06 12:08 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: ErikTracy]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
You folks must not spar much, or generate much in the way of pounds per sqaure inch, even the best eventually break, and I've gone through a lot. If your not breaking them, you need to spar more, learn to hit harder, or both. Proper form and technique will generate not in the hundreds but in the thousands of pounds per square inch with a sword. Trust me, your not doing it right if junko bokens and even good Japan white oak are lasting you that long, sounds more like hobbyist types and game playing to me. For the real stuff, yeah, sorry, they break, and need constant maintenance. Never ceases to amaze me how so many are surprised a boken would need maintenence when theirs never has, lol, if you use them right and often, they do.

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#276539 - 09/02/06 05:09 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: Woku]
ErikTracy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/15/06
Posts: 17
Quote:

You folks must not spar much, or generate much in the way of pounds per sqaure inch, even the best eventually break, and I've gone through a lot. If your not breaking them, you need to spar more, learn to hit harder, or both. Proper form and technique will generate not in the hundreds but in the thousands of pounds per square inch with a sword. Trust me, your not doing it right if junko bokens and even good Japan white oak are lasting you that long, sounds more like hobbyist types and game playing to me. For the real stuff, yeah, sorry, they break, and need constant maintenance. Never ceases to amaze me how so many are surprised a boken would need maintenence when theirs never has, lol, if you use them right and often, they do.




Different strokes for different styles.

Your use of the term 'spar' indicates to me a different mind set from what the norm for 'koryu' is. We do paired kata just about every week. But the emphasis is on technique not the amount of force you use. That is completely contrary to how to properly use the katana anyway - at least in the way we are taught. Perhaps you do not use shinken for tameshigiri or know how easy it is to cut with proper technique? It takes surprisingly little effort with good technique - anything more is a waste of energy and effort. But if you like to run your practices with the emphasis to see how brutally hard you can swing and smash bokken - well, that is your school - but not mine.

I prefer to practice then sand and oil :-)

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#276540 - 09/02/06 07:13 PM Re: Bokken care and maintenance? [Re: ErikTracy]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

It takes surprisingly little effort with good technique - anything more is a waste of energy and effort.




Not to mention that overpowering cuts tends to completely destroy hasuji, without which you will not cut worth a darn no matter how hard you swing.

Woku,
I can tell you believe in your training method. Please try to be respectful of people who train in other ways.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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