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#274524 - 07/24/06 09:54 PM are thease swords any good?
bloodyrath15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 12
are either thease swords any good for just swinging around in my back yard and hitting things.will they even hold together?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140010067591

or this one

http://www.trueswords.com/shirisaya-traditional-katana-p-650.html

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#274525 - 07/24/06 09:58 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
They're from ebay. They're not good.

They're worth 11$. They're definately not good.

Do not buy a sword that costs less than 100$. A Paul Chen practical katana is the cheapest real sword you want to buy. Anything less is probably of VERY low quality.

At least a wallhanger will cut pool noodles if you need it to, those swords you just posted would probably snap on a blade of grass.

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#274526 - 07/24/06 11:16 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Those are what is popularly known as wallhangers. So named because hanging on the wall is about all they're good for.

It's obvioius you're knew to swords. I'd suggest reading a few choice threads.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6529

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53083

Also you can gain a basic knowledge of real Japanese swords at Richard Stein's Japanese Sword Index at http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Why just swinging around in your backyard? Why not find somewhere to train for real?

Anyway, welcome to the forum.



Edited by Charles Mahan (07/24/06 11:20 PM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274527 - 07/25/06 12:12 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
bloodyrath15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 12
thanks and im going to start kendo after summers over but i hsve to wait till then to get good swords scince im only 15 and my parents will be paying, i was just looking for a cheap sword for like 30-60$ to get used to a real katana while i wait. i already have a bokken but it dosent feel as real as my friends katana.

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#274528 - 07/25/06 12:17 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
bloodyrath15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 12

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#274529 - 07/25/06 02:16 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
Wow, a "full tang" sword that is actually full tang. I've only seen that once before, by Kris Cutlery. Here's the deal. The hilt of a sword softens the impact as well as protects the blade from your sweat. Otherwise, after a single class or battle, you would have rust all along the tang from your sweat. The only realistic and usable tang is what I call a 3/4 enclosed tang. This encompasses almost every historical Eastern or European sword that we have ever seen, and the majority of the other times were when there was no tang at all (as in a katar or pata).

Let me give you a few reasons why all these swords are not worth the bandwidth to get the pictures.

1st: Stainless Steel = Suicide
Stainless is filled with Chromium, any stainless alloy of any hardness will be dangerously brittle. When you strike anything with a stainless blade, you run a risk of shattering the steel. The shards can fly everywhere, including your legs and/or eyes. I haven't hear of anyone killed when their sword shattered, but I have seen at least one massive scar on a man's leg, and other injuries are very common. Almost no one in that situation gets out unscathed.

2nd: You Get What You Pay for or Less, Never More
To make a good sword, you need good materials. A six foot bar of quality S7 steel will set you back $40-$60.
Quality wood and brass fittings will cost ~$20.
Charcoal for the fire is expensive due to the quantity, $20 easily during the entire process. You need good charcoal to prevent adding sulfer to the steel (good for shattering fun).
That's $70-$90 of materials just for the blade itself, not counting wear and tear on the forge, hammers, bellows, mills, anvils, saws, and other used materials (including clay, water/oil for quenching, etc), much less the rent for the building, electricity for the lights, the salesman who brings you the sword, the insurance on the place, etc.

Now, you come to the expensive part, labor.

A blade takes a lot of time to make. Let's keep a very simple estimate. 8 hours forging, 3 hours hardening and tempering (so the blade keeps an edge without being brittle), 3 hours sharpening and polishing, 3 hours casting/carving the furniture, half an hour to assemble (make that 1 1/2 for wrapped grips), and another half an hour to test. That's 19 man-hours for a single blade. Note that this is a very low estimate. It doesn't take into account special techniques (traditional Japanese tamahagne forging takes 40-60 hours just to make the blade), or any specific request.

Now, the labor rates are also very high. A traditional Japanese swordsmith apprenticeship takes five years. The longest I know is Angelsword's apprenticeship, twelve years from start to finish, and they will only consider college graduates. Now, would you want to have spent decades in school to work for minimum wage? Not even in China will skilled swordsmiths work for the sum necessary to get those blade prices. 20 to 30 hours of a skilled professional at even $30 an hour is $600-$900, and would you get the equivalent of a doctoral education to make $60,000 a year full time?

Then, you have profit. If a business doesn't make profit, they falter and die. These businesses have been around for years, so you know they aren't losing money.

So, these swords are selling for $50-$150. How? By making sacrifices, big sacrifices. Cheap steel doesn't cost as much, but unless you invest a lot more time in it, quality suffers. Trained swordsmiths aren't necessary, have a mill carve the blade into the correct shape (note: good swords can come from mills, but that is only if they are properly heat treated, mills soften any austentite in the steel to a soft pearlite), get a Chinese steelworker/farmer and give him a one week course on quenching a blade to get a hammon. Get another Chinese workman to polish the blade in 15 minutes. Don't test your products, that takes time and money, and we need to get them across the Pacific quickly.

You won't get a quality sword under $1,000 American. Even the better cheap companies like Cold Steel and Paul Chen have terrible quality control below their upper lines.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear, but it needed to be said. Do actual research. Don't trust some guy on a forum because he sounds smart and has a large number beside the "number of posts" label. Do your research, learn about hardening and tempering, austentite, pearlite, marstensite, the design and history of the various blade styles (longsword, claymore, rapier, katana, dao, jian). Perhaps you should learn to use one, and be worthy of the sword that you are purchasing. There's no hurry, you've only got one lifetime, so you shouldn't waste it on buying the first thing you see.
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

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#274530 - 07/25/06 02:17 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Sorin Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Oxford, MS
Full tanged or not, these swords are made out of steel that's not supposed to be used in a sword outside of the wall hangers
that were mentioned before. You probably won't find a sword that's even close to a real sword under $150. The majority of
the swords on trueswords aren't made for anything more then decoration. Though, if your just practicing forms or something
with them, then I suppose a fake sword isn't that bad, so long as you don't put too much strain on it, and definitely
do not try to cut something with it, but if your going to buy a sword, I'd say save up for a decent one instead of wasting money.

Sorin

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#274531 - 07/25/06 03:27 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Sorin]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
I'd disagree on that, Sorin, I've heard of poorly fitting blades sliding out of their grips when slung around. I wouldn't take the chance even for non-contact practice


Edited by Benjamin1986 (07/25/06 03:29 AM)
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

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#274532 - 07/25/06 04:05 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Benjamin1986]
bloodyrath15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 12
what is the diffrence between a carbon and stainless steel blade?

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#274533 - 07/25/06 09:25 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
If you are starting Kendo then you should be looking for a good bokuto or a shinai as that is what you will be using in your Kendo classes anyway. A good bokuto will only set you back $30 or so and will be a good training tool for years.
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274534 - 07/25/06 03:52 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
I don't know how much you know, so I'll summarize this briefly. You want two things in a sword, hardness and ductility. Hardness keeps the steel in it's shape. A hard blade will keep it's edge and will not take a bend. Ductility preserves the blade. If a sword was made from diamond, it would shatter. If a sword is not ductile, its edge will chip and the blade itself will break. Unfortunately, the two are inversly related. On the chemical level, more carbon makes the steel harder.

The phrase "carbon steel" is (depending on your point of view) either an oxymoron or redundant, as steel is by definition, an alloy of iron and carbon. "Carbon steel" generally refers to steel with iron, carbon, and nothing else. You have two main variations of this that are used for swords. 1050 steel has .5% carbon and the rest iron. It is an easy to work with, nice steel, but it is really too soft for practical blade use. Significant hardening is needed to make it useful. I know of no good swordsmiths who use 1050 for the edge of a blade. It can be done, but why add unnecessary work?

Then, there is 1065/1075, with (you guessed it) .65% and .75% carbon respectively. 1075 is a good starting steel for swords, though it will still need hardening, you have a higher starting hardness throughout the blade, so it doesn't have a tendency to case harden (where the outer layer is hard, but the inside is soft). 1075 is a commonly used starting steel, and I have heard of katana forged with a 1075 edge and a 1050 spine. There are a number of other, more complex alloys that work well with swords. Read into it.

Now stainless has chromium in it, up to 25%. Above 1% chromium makes steel brittle. Stainless isn't bad for knives, as the steel isn't put through too much strain, however, swords put way too much strain on the blade, and they snap or shatter. There are some non-rusting alloys that aren't brittle, such as the maraging steel in fencing blade, but they are too soft to hold an edge.

One final thing, look into hype before you buy. A lot of the information available is obviously biased either for or against certain smiths (The best example I've ever found is this: On an otherwise very informative page, the review of S7 on is a clear attack against Angelsword). No one is unbiased, so take nothing on faith. For example, that page I mentioned earlier is very informative, but one of it's main deciding points is which steels can show hammons well, which in my opinion, is rating appearance over the actual strength of the blade.

Caveat Emptor, may the buyer beware
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

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#274535 - 07/25/06 05:31 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Benjamin1986]
Sorin Offline
Member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Oxford, MS
I'm a bit curious about what companies/smiths some people on the forum use to get their good quality swords.
It might help out our sword seeking friend here a bit. I personally am looking at www.museumreplicas.com.
Most of their swords are made by Windlass Steelcraft, which I've heard a few good things about. Although my interest
at the moment isn't for practice but more for collecting.

Sorin

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#274536 - 07/25/06 06:35 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Sorin]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
I like Angelsword myself. I like the artistry combined with science that has actual data to back it's claims. The kingdom-come warranty doesn't hurt either. I don't agree with some of their energy-art-chi stuff, but their strength clams are based on real science

I'm pretty sure that Charles still swears by SwordStore

Also recomended is Bugei (the highest line of Paul Chen)

Angus Trim - Good fittings and good workmanship, but severely underhardened edges. Personally, not on my recomended list, though good for reinactments/stage

Museum Replicas - Better than some, but not for practical use. Windlass blades can't hold an edge while cutting air. The thing is, they are historically accurate, and once properly dulled would also be good for reinactment or stage.

Then, you have a number of master smiths who go by name alone. Beautiful blades, but if you have to ask, you can't afford them.

Alright, I'm tired of typing, and my boss is getting onto me about the approaching WF deadline. Someone else do the typing. I'm not going to look at this for a few days because I can't help myself.


Edited by Benjamin1986 (07/25/06 06:47 PM)

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#274537 - 07/25/06 08:44 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Benjamin1986]
pgsmith Offline
Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 275
Loc: Texas
I personally liked the Atrim swords that I've seen. Didn't think they were too soft at all.

I also think that Angelsword is a bit overpriced, but that's the beauty of swords. Everyone has there own favorites.

The Paul Chen/Hanwei line of swords are all better than the average stainless steel wallhangers. Nihonzashi has good prices on their lower end swords ... http://www.nihonzashi.com/

For higher end western swords, there's Christian Fletcher ... http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/Welcome.html

Albion Swords ... http://www.albion-swords.com/

Arms and Armor ... http://www.armor.com/
_________________________
Paul

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#274538 - 07/26/06 12:19 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: pgsmith]
bloodyrath15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 12
are there any good places around dfw in tx to check out swords like a musem about swords or collections?

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#274539 - 07/26/06 09:49 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
There are a number of places in the DFW area where you can see the swords folks actually train with. Paul Smith has a dojo up in McKinney and I train at a dojo in Denton. There is also an Kendo place in Addison which does Iaido as well. They should have a few swords for you to look at.

Oh and the city of Denton has a Hizen Tadayoshi on display at city hall. It was presented to the city by Kogushi Osamu a few years ago. Very nice, if a bit short for my taste.


Edited by Charles Mahan (07/26/06 09:50 AM)
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274540 - 07/26/06 01:58 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
I've heard that most of the wallhangers are made with a tang that is just a small metal pin that goes into the handle and that when you swing them to hard or swing them fast and come to a fast halt(i.e. hitting the sword on something) the pin can break and then it is possible for the blade of the sword to fly off and possibly hit something or worse, someone.
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#274541 - 07/26/06 03:16 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Saarna]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
That's what we call a rat-tail tang.

There is a disection of a wallhanger at the following link. The wallhanger being disected does have a rat tang tail.

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=43606&highlight=second+mekugi
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274542 - 07/26/06 10:45 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
Don't want to be around that when the blade takes flight It's a time bomb waiting to happen that can lead to death .
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#274543 - 07/28/06 12:16 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Saarna]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
a number of blade manufacturers make full tang katana, such as last legend and kris cutlery. both make blades that are durable and perfectly acceptable for dojo cutting.

I've been toying with the idea of buying a few cheness swords recently. Their prices are good and they have a few blades in the sizes I have been looking for. Consider looking at them. They would make ideal project blades because the furniture included is not very good, but you can increase your knowledge and skill with Japanese swords by replacing tsuba, rewrapping, carving stuka and saya, etc.. by yourself.

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#274544 - 07/28/06 03:41 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paradoxbox]
bloodyrath15 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/24/06
Posts: 12
can u buy the tsuba and fittings on the site and would that be the best place to buy them if i got one? is there a better site to buy fittings for those swords?

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#274545 - 07/28/06 08:17 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
I've had good experiences with shadowofleaves, they sell both cotton and silk ito (the wrap on the handle) and I think they used to sell tsuba as well, I'm not sure if they do anymore. If you're into customizing your katana you may consider even making your own tsuba with a chisel and hammer. Otherwise most sword retailers online carry paul chen tsubas which are good enough (forged iron, never used cast iron tsuba).

There's a site on the net, I can't remember what it's called, they're based in Japan and have an office in Canada, look around on swordforum long enough and you'll find it. They occasionally give away free furniture and sometimes blades with kizu (flaws/scars) to beginner polishers.

you can also buy habaki, koiguchi, etc.. from shadowofleaves, but I think those things tend to be more personalized. You may want to build your own or have someone make them to your specifications if you're going to customize a blade. Chances are a blade you customize won't be used for cutting, it's usually just something pretty to look at and learn from.

Check swordforum.com for sword customization threads, the search function there is great. Remember to register using both your real first and last name.

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#274546 - 07/28/06 11:05 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Kendo_Noob Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 22
Loc: Wisconsin
If you are starting kendo, you don't need something that is useable. IMO you should save your money and get nicer bogu.
_________________________
The MKC Sam Schumacher

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#274547 - 07/30/06 12:54 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Kendo_Noob]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
so on this site I basically just ask for a flawed katana and they'll give it to me?
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#274548 - 07/30/06 06:03 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Saarna]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Quote:

so on this site I basically just ask for a flawed katana and they'll give it to me?




If you're you're the first to ask for it yes. It's strictly for polishers / projects though. The kizu on free blades are always fatal ones, i.e. overpolished to the soft metal on the ha, wrecked the shinogi, wrecked the kissaki etc. And there's usually a line up of people waiting for those (Including me!) so you have to be quick.

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#274549 - 07/30/06 06:58 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paradoxbox]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
well what site is it?
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#274550 - 07/31/06 01:07 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Saarna]
jeff_lajara Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 7
yeah i want to see this website it would be a free wallhanger/ after its done being fixed.

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#274551 - 08/01/06 11:28 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: jeff_lajara]
Saarna Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 56
the site?
_________________________
“Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.” -Miyamoto Musashi

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#274552 - 08/29/06 11:40 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Saarna]
xc279 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 5
I am looking for a first sword and i was wondering if this one is any good http://www.coldsteel.com/88hcs.html

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#274553 - 08/30/06 12:09 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: xc279]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Decent sword, a little pricey for a first sword but the nickname it's got is apt, you're liable to break your wrist if you try cutting with that. Experience or strong wrists needed

Consider getting a two handed sword first for gaining experience.

If you get a Japanese sword get a through tempered one or one made from spring steel, as they'll hold up to abuse better.

If you don't intend to cut anything then forget everything I just said and buy whatever suits you best.

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#274554 - 08/30/06 12:31 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paradoxbox]
xc279 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 5
I won't be using it at all, I was just waondering if it is functional, has a full tang or good steel.I am looking at this and not a cheaper one because I want it to be a "real" sword. Not a decoration replica sword.(in other words I want it to have the potential to be used and last even though it won't.)


Edited by xc279 (08/30/06 12:33 AM)

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#274555 - 08/30/06 02:12 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: xc279]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
It looks half-decent. Cold steel is an iffy company, with poor quality control, but decent average quality. However, due to their deceptive advertising (see the "Solid Proof" video on the left of the screen), I refuse to deal with Cold Steel ever again.

In their advertising, they break cinderblocks with the back of the blade. Impressive, until you realize you can do the same with any hammer, and smashing cinderblocks is nothing like what a sword actually does. They also perform "tamshighiri", but their mats are hollow, very so. I've heard estimates ranging from 1/4 to 1/8 the strength of a regular tatami mat.

Also, read the fine print in the video
Quote:

While informative and entertaining, ”SOLID PROOF” and "SWORD PROOF" do contain graphic demonstrations of cutting power that may be too intense for some viewers. The tests shown in the videos are dangerous and should not be duplicated. Testing in this manner constitutes GROSS ABUSE of our products. Duplicating these tests, or altering our products in any way, may void your warranty. The Cold Steel warranty covers our products when they are used as they were intended to be used. The warranty covers defects in materials and/or workmanship, it does not cover normal wear and tear or abuse.


Note, they claim strongest and sharpest, but they do not cover the use in the video. Compare to other Angelsword, who has actual Charpy test results from the about the quality of the swords and back it up with a waranty that says Anything short of outright abuse (which has been said includes almost anything but running your car over it) is covered.

If you wish to claim something, back it up with real tests and real measurements and support your claim with a real warranty.

Back on topic. For that reason, I would not suggest that sword.
_________________________
Fencing Club at UH

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#274556 - 08/30/06 02:19 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: xc279]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
My recommendation is to look into Iaito. They fill the role you describe very nicely.

http://www.swordstore.com
http://www.tozando.com

The fittings are made in Japan, and expertly wrapped. If you join an iaido dojo one day, an iaito is the first sword you will need in your training curriculum, and the one you will use for the first several years. You will also continue to use it off and on for decades afterwards.

What it isn't is two things. Iaito are generally no sharper than a butter knife. It is a training tool. Designed not to cut off the fingers of new students.

The second thing Iaito are not, is made of steel. They are typically made of a zinc aluminum alloy. You cann't really put an edge on them, and they are not suitable for cutting objects. They are perfect for solo training, which is the bread and butter of iai training.

One advantage for what you are looking for is that they require little to no maintenance. An iaito won't rust because you failed to clean and oil it regularly. It looks exactly like the real thing. Most people will never be able to tell the difference. It differs from model to model and maker to maker, but in general the fittings on a typical iaito will be as good or better than the stuff you'll find on production swords such as the one you are looking at.

Just some food for thought.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274557 - 08/30/06 05:06 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
xc279 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/29/06
Posts: 5
I really like the angelsword saber but I don't have $6,000 to spend on a sword. Does anyoneknow where I can get an affordable saber? And what all could a coldsteel sword withstand?

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#274558 - 08/31/06 10:30 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: xc279]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
Ah yes, you found the Avatars. Gorgeous blades. If you can can get to a demonstration (in Scarborough Faire in Waxahachie, Texas Renaissance Festival, or New York Renaissance fair in Tuxedo), I'd suggest it just to look at the things. However, for quality, real sabers, I really don't have anyone else on the custom blade side to recommend to you. Most good swordsmiths work either with knives or Japanese blades as those form the core use of serious martial artists.

Angus Trim is the only group that I can think of off the top of my head as actually being decent in the low price range. They have a consistent problem with underhardened edges, but their balance is typically good, and if you aren't going to be swinging too hard, it should be fine.
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Fencing Club at UH

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#274559 - 09/01/06 02:53 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
There is a lot of elitism on this board, and, while many of them mean well, they don't know much. Just because something is on ebay does not make it crap. I have owned some of masahiros earlier work, he is a decent smith, and makes some decent blades. I was not impressed with his lowest end stuff, but his mid end can be purchased for 300 and up, and ae not bad. I've had a chance while in china, which is where the supposed God of sword making Paul Chen, "ack" also makes swords. Chen is not the exception the the chinese sword rule. Look at getting some of Masahiros folded blades, which you can get at half of chen swords, and often the quality is just as good. Like I said, be careful of the lower end stuff, of course, but masahiro makes a nice entry level "practical" more in line with a "chisa" katana, which is as good or better then Paul Chens practical. Don't listen to all the naysayers here, you can't judge a sword by it's cost, or what large marketplace you but it from, like ebay. Chen and other super high end swords are also for sale on ebay, and it has no effect on their value or quality. Masahiro is decent, just don't get the sword which uses it's box as a makeshift stand, that sword is only for display. Take care.

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#274560 - 09/01/06 09:09 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Woku]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
I thought the Paul Chens' were the low end stuff...
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274561 - 09/02/06 12:25 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Woku Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/01/06
Posts: 18
And I thought you were an impartial moderator, who knew

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#274562 - 09/02/06 07:18 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Woku]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Who told you I was impartial?
_________________________
Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274563 - 09/03/06 08:23 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Benjamin1986]
roostergunner Offline
Kentucky Fried Idiot

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 30
Loc: My own little world


I also find the coldsteel video to be misleading,in there defense,they tell you not to do these things,but a person might think that they could do so,and that in itself is misleading.I am very suspiscious,but I am going to try a few of there weapons,then tell what I expierienced.
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I am so dumb i stare at OJ cartons cuz they say 'Concentrate'.

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#274564 - 10/05/06 03:10 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: bloodyrath15]
paco Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/04/06
Posts: 10
hi guys,
the cheapest real blade that is made in the traditional japanese way costs 299 euros and is made by john lee. the blade is folded 12 times and got real good critics. the name of the blade is john lee 2. it is made in china, that's why it's so cheap.

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#274565 - 10/05/06 06:30 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Woku]
splice Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 230
Loc: Ottawa, ON
Quote:

There is a lot of elitism on this board, and, while many of them mean well, they don't know much.




Quote:

Chen and other super high end swords are also for sale on ebay




Chen, super high end swords? Well, you may mean well, but it appears that you don't know much either.

Chen are barely acceptable swords. They make good beaters or beginners swords, or if you're on a really tight budget and can't afford anything else. But "super high end sword"? What's nosyu then, super duper high end sword? What about a shinken made by a new traditional smith? Extra super duper high end sword? A juyo token? Hyper extra monster super duper top high end sword?

Chen's sword are basic beaters for people on a budget. A super high end sword costs tens of thousands of dollars. Your evaluation of Chen's swords seems to be just a bit off.

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#274566 - 10/05/06 10:06 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paco]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
The only references I can find to John Lee katana are in German, and the Google translator leaves much to be desired.

However, I can tell you that I would be extremely suspicious of any blade whose brand and reputation I did not know. Besides, I do see one problem. Read this translation. A 60/40 Rockwall katana? Even-hardened blades often have hardness of 52-58. Especially for starting with 1095 steel, this is unimpressive, and probably means poor heat treatment. If the result is even hardness along the length of the blade, that's acceptable. However, bad heat treatment tends to leave stress points in the steel.

In short, I need to do more research before I can get a full opinion, but I haven't seen anything to recommend John Lee.
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#274567 - 10/05/06 03:02 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Benjamin1986]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA

I'm still stuck back on Chens blades being "super high end."

Good, solid, functional, qualtiy swords for the price.

(least that seems to be the feedback I get)

But "super high end" is a real reach.

If they are considered "super high end" what, pray tell, would they call one of Howard Clarks blades?

"extra, super duper, really, really, special, high, HIGH end blades."

Sheesh.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#274568 - 10/06/06 03:18 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Benjamin1986]
paco Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/04/06
Posts: 10
hi guys,
u r right. i tried to find some more information on john lee blades and there is really nothing to find except for budoten. i actually don't believe that u can get a real good sword for only 300 bucks. for all i know r real good blades real expensive. the only thing i know about it is, that the john lee blades r made in china like paul chen swords and for all they say in the traditional japanese way. well, labour is extremely cheap in china so, maybe it's possible that the blades r not that bad.

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#274569 - 06/03/07 11:34 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paco]
Kieffala Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/03/07
Posts: 2
Having met and worked with John Lee this weekend, using one of his edged swords to slice through damp, rolled bamboo (picture available once I get it from the photographer), and purchased an edged sword he designed. I wholeheartedly endorse his swords. He balances them himself, will sharpen them for you if you buy a non-edged sword, lifetime guarantee, etc.

One guy chipped the edge of his sword by catching the bamboo incorrectly, and Lee did not hesitate in going right over, examining the sword, telling the guy he'd fix it or give him a new one if it turned out to be a problem with the blade.

This man is incredibly sought-after as a sword-maker and designer. A sword he made recently sold at auction for over $1 million. He was one of the designers and makers of the huge sword for the Beijing Olympics.

He's just amazing and a great guy. He has a deep martial arts background so he gets at the weaponry from both sides. I don't know that I'd ever buy a combat weight and/or edged sword (any sword really) from anyone else.

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#274570 - 06/04/07 02:45 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Kieffala]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5820
Loc: USA
Kieffa

Thanks for the tip.

There are a number of high quality swordsmiths to chose from.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#274571 - 06/09/07 10:45 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Alistar Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 21
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tsuyokereba iki, yowakereba...shinu

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#274572 - 12/20/07 06:18 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paradoxbox]
ninjaontog123 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 12/20/07
Posts: 3
dudes, how about musashi swords? they sell hand forged swords that are carbon steel 1054 or sumthing like that. The only issue is the authenticity of rayskins (sa-me).
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#274573 - 12/20/07 11:28 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: ninjaontog123]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
All of the Musashi swords that I have seen have had terrible wraps on the tsuka. That alone is enough to make them unusuable in regular day to day training. They simply won't hold up over the long term. Most I've seen wouldn't hold up for more than a few weeks tops. If you put your thumb against part of the wrap and push, it should not move.

Of course, the same can be said of most production swords in the same price range as the Musashi stuff.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274574 - 07/27/08 02:54 AM uh? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Adrian185 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 4

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#274575 - 07/27/08 09:10 AM Re: uh? [Re: Adrian185]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Nearly forty dollars worth, maybe.

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#274576 - 07/27/08 09:29 PM Re: uh? [Re: Adrian185]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Quote:

So this naginata wouldn't be good at all?
http://www.trueswords.com/dragon-naginata-huge-staff-blade-p-109.html




Good for what purpose?
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274577 - 07/27/08 11:15 PM Re: uh? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Adrian185 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 4
Just to practice and maybe to cut small branches in the back yard


Edited by Adrian185 (07/27/08 11:17 PM)

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#274578 - 07/28/08 10:40 AM Re: uh? [Re: Adrian185]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Then no it is not suitable for your purposes. For practice you will need a genuine naginata not a guady replica and the instruction that goes with it. Actually for real practice you will probably need to start off with a wooden naginata. Something like this: http://bokkenshop.com/eng/318.html The instructor you find(assuming you can find one) would know exactly what you would need to get started.

The thing you linked to is good only for hanging on the wall. It is not meant for actual use and is likely to break with any serious contact. Of course, as hideously ugly as it is, I don't see that it has much decorative value either. It isn't really even shaped like a naginata. The fact that the naginata-like object you linked two costs somewhat less than the wooden training naginata I liked to above, should speak volumes as to the quality of the one you linked too.

As for cutting small branches in the backyard, you need a pair of loppers or a machete.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#274579 - 07/28/08 12:26 PM Re: uh? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Halley Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 126
Quote:

The fact that the naginata-like object you linked two costs somewhat less than the wooden training naginata I liked to above, should speak volumes as to the quality of the one you linked.




But the wooden version doesn't come with a genuine custom pleatherette mystical dragon silkscreened fast-access sheath, does it, Charles? Hah! I didn't think so.

And we put so much scorn in those cheap stainless steel blades. The site currently says the stainless is not in stock; the current blades are black. That's GOT to be a step up in quality, right? Right?


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#274580 - 08/04/08 06:00 PM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: Charles Mahan]
Tains Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/08
Posts: 3
haha! If you want a katana thats even near the real deal, you'll have to pay at least $350. A reasonable sword costs around $700(thats what I'll be buying). for $700, you get carbon steel, real same, real hamon line, good fittings etc. A good sword. Unless you're going to cut stuff with it(which I'm not planning on doing, its for decoration purposes).

Expect to be saving some money man, but expect to be loving your sword if you finally buy it(and you're going to do tameshi-giri with it). Swords should be picked carefully, because you have to pay it respect for the rest of your life.
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Create your own path, your own rules, and only THEN will your life bow to you.

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#274581 - 08/05/08 07:06 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: paradoxbox]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
There's a lot of good info here but does anyone have any info on good sources for chinese broadswords?
Thanks

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#274582 - 08/06/08 08:51 AM Re: are thease swords any good? [Re: puffadder]
seibukanUK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 43
Charles,
Please put this thread out of its misery.
Regards
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