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#273856 - 07/21/06 02:40 PM What training injuries can I expect in JKD?
MartialMack Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Nashville
I'm really wanting to train JKD. I'm looking into training with a full instructor in PFS/JKD, but as a professional musician, I'm concerned about injuries.

Is there a balance I can strike with "going easy" yet still getting the proper physical conditioning? For instance, since wrist injuries are my biggest concern, maybe I can, for now, go lighter on punching, but heavier on elbows and knees and clinch work?

I feel with JKD especially, there is an emphasis on knowledge and "visualization," with conditioning as more of a support system-- meaning you don't have to train like a UFC or Pride fighter to be effective.

Help!

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#273857 - 07/21/06 03:04 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MartialMack]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Depends on the school. My old JKD school did more with drills and pad work than actual sparring, so the injury rate was very low. Have you checked out any particular schools to see what they train like?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#273858 - 07/21/06 05:28 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MartialMack]
Ayub Offline
heartbreaker, lifetaker

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: London, UK
If that is a great concern to you, I would recommend strengthening your wrists. You can get great info on that in the strengthening forum. I would also suggest ensuring your punching technique is good, knowing this will diminish any danger to your wrists. You should keep your weight and forward momentum perpendicular to your knuckles, this way your wrist wont be forced to twist on impact, keeping your hand safe.

Dont punch into the air full force, I just injured my elbow by throwing a full force, fully snapped straight left in the air. Full force is for heavy bags and focus mitts or well protected full contact sparring.
_________________________
Cut me Mick!

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#273859 - 07/22/06 12:25 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MattJ]
MartialMack Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Nashville
Quote:

Depends on the school. My old JKD school did more with drills and pad work than actual sparring, so the injury rate was very low.



So is sparring usually the culprit for injuries? That would make sense as the "live" component is unpredictable, and you're also on the receiving end of things.

Quote:

Have you checked out any particular schools to see what they train like?



The one I'm looking into is run by a full instructor certified by Paul Vunak in his "Progressive Fighting Systems" JKD. I'm yet to actually go for a visit, so maybe I can get back to you guys when I do.

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#273860 - 07/22/06 12:30 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Ayub]
MartialMack Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 38
Loc: Nashville
Quote:

If that is a great concern to you, I would recommend strengthening your wrists. You can get great info on that in the strengthening forum. I would also suggest ensuring your punching technique is good, knowing this will diminish any danger to your wrists. You should keep your weight and forward momentum perpendicular to your knuckles, this way your wrist wont be forced to twist on impact, keeping your hand safe.



Great tips.

So are you referring to the Wing Chun style punching? I know this is how Bruce punched...

Quote:

Dont punch into the air full force, I just injured my elbow by throwing a full force, fully snapped straight left in the air. Full force is for heavy bags and focus mitts or well protected full contact sparring.



I'll keep that it mind! Thanks!

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#273861 - 07/23/06 01:54 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MartialMack]
JustGuess Offline
Member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 72
Loc: Indiana
Assuming your training is any good, you should probably expect sore muscles, getting hit, slammed, and submitted on a somewhat regular basis.

JKD is all about learning what works best for you, and the only way to learn that is to test things out in sparring. Sparring carries obvious risks, but if you're not willing to take those risks in the name of improvement, then why are you even training?

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#273862 - 07/25/06 01:36 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: JustGuess]
Mr_Heretik Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 1074
Loc: Bronx NY, USA
People train for all kinds of different reasons, and sometimes MA may come in the way of other priorities... so it all depends on the person.

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#273863 - 07/25/06 02:19 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MartialMack]
Taison Offline
The Forum Dragon
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3629
Loc: BKK, Thailand
Not to be mean, but if you're going to learn JKD but fear of being injured, forget it.

Injury is a part of MA. No matter how much you try to avoid it, it's still there. It's something that the body gets used to after a while and you can say "i don't suffer injuries anymore" but infact you are except you don't feel it. It's not called numb, it's more like getting used to it.

It's better to learn MA and get injured, than to not have learnt at all.

Be not afraid, for injuries does not come easily. It's just an urban myth.

-Taison out
_________________________
I got two fists.. Don't make me use my head as well!

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#273864 - 07/25/06 05:46 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MartialMack]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
It really does depend on the group in question. With some groups (that I have personally seen and experienced), you may get a hang-nail or, (gasp) BREAK A SWEAT!!!!

While in others, you may need advil afterward.


-John

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#273865 - 08/28/06 04:47 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Ayub]
Craze Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 8
Quote:

Dont punch into the air full force, I just injured my elbow by throwing a full force, fully snapped straight left in the air. Full force is for heavy bags and focus mitts or well protected full contact sparring.




You should not be fully extending your arm when you punch. You should be going 95% of the way and training yourself such that that becomes part of your muscle memory. If not, you could wind up taking yourself out of a fight with one failed punch.

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#273866 - 08/31/06 08:56 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Craze]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
really? I was always told to use the full extent of my reach. Surely if you have to stop your shots when they're nearly at full extension, then you're going to lose speed and power because of the contraction of the biceps and the other antagonistic muscles.
Do you do JKD, and if so is this something your instructor has taught you, or has it evolved as a result of your own training? Has anyone else heard of this?
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#273867 - 08/31/06 06:34 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
Craze Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 8
I do study jkd and it is something which my instructor taught me and it makes complete sense. you wouldnt want to throw your arm out in a fight. In the beginning it will take a conscious effort to not go 100%, but after doing it for a while it will be come part of your muscle memory and not something you even have to think about doing or not doing.

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#273868 - 09/05/06 07:20 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Craze]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
yes, but if you contract your biceps muscle at all during your punch, it WILL entail a loss of speed and power, not to mention reach and possibly even concentration (this part is NOT merely an opinion, it's scientific fact). I have always been taught to completely relax all the muscles that are counterproductive to your punch. This is also evident in the wing chun system, siu lim tao and chum kiu. In fact, it is widely known throughout the the martial arts world.

I CAN see your point though, and it is an interesting one. Maybe it IS better to aim to preserve you joints and ligaments. It may also increase your chances of longevity in you MA training.

I guess this is another one of those find your own truth debates where there is no correct answer, just opinions. For me though, i feel it is my responsibility as a MAist, to be able to hit with ALL my speed, power, reach etc, regardless of the fact that i may miss and injure myself. If you hit slower and with less power, you are more likely to get hit back. In fact, i would go as far as to say that you will never be the very best you can be.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#273869 - 09/05/06 01:05 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
QuietGal Offline
Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 177
Loc: Missouri
Injuries? You mean I might get *hurt* doing this stuff???
Sorry...my sarcasm gets out of hand at times...its the meds, I swear.

I would look at the point of the training and/or drill that you are doing at that moment. If you are wanting to focus on shape and form, then obviously don't go all out and throw yourself into a punch or kick. Slow down and make sure that what you are doing is correct. But if you are going for power, then have fun and go all out, but at the same time don't sacrifice shape and form. Being sloppy is no excuse for working on power/strength. You may be stronger tham me, but if my form and technique (and the fact that I am a dirty fighter) are right on, I most likely will be the one coming out on top.

Expect to be injured and sore from training. I've dislocated my knee a couple of times and my jaw, broken fingers and my nose. Black eyes, split lips, bloody noses, bruises everywhere, microfracture in the legs, etc. However, none of the injuries have been life threatening, they just tend to look really bad. While they hurt, and some have forced me into resting a bit more, I've always come back for more. I'm sick that way...
_________________________
QuietGal "I'm torn between the desire to create and the desire to destroy." - Lucy Van Pelt

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#273870 - 09/27/06 12:05 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
Craze Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 8
One of the things we live by is, maximum power, maximum speed, maximum control. To throw a punch so hard and fast that you cant stop it at 95% means that you dont have the utmost control. It would also mean that you are very much over committed to the punch you are throwing, such that even if you knew half way through the punch it wasnt going to be effective you couldnt do anything about it. Let alone counter a counter offensive move by the person which they started because of the original punch. (when i use the term you, im not directing this at anyone in particular)

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#273871 - 09/27/06 12:09 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
Craze Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 8
another thing... its not that your contracting your bicep during the punch.... your doing it at the end of the punch. Might seem like a small difference but in actuality its a big one. You are also using this to create the whiping motion of the punch which gives the punch more power kinda like the examle of getting hit with a ball and chain or just a straight bat.... the ball and chain can create more energy..

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#273872 - 09/27/06 12:45 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Craze]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is, your view. I think your're wrong to not use your full reach. You can use it without overcommitting, which simply means that you move your centre of gravity too far, not that you're extending your arm out too far. The whipping motion of the punch actually comes from the direction of your body turning round and moving towards either foot, NOT the pulling of it.
I think i know what you're trying to say though, some people don't punch directly down the centre line which can lead to the jarring of the joints although it gives them a little bit more reach. This is just because they haven't learned to punch with the power of the entire body yet and they hit out from their side.
What i'm talking about is using the full reach directly down the centre line, which may not have the same reach as the above mentioned incorrect technique, and which you may think i'm talking about, but it is still 100% of your reach.

Anyway, these kind of debates become tedious very quickly and cannot be resolved on a forum. I need to actually see what you're talking about and vice versa. So what do you say we leave it where it is. You have your views, i have mine.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#273873 - 09/28/06 11:49 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
Craze Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 8
my intention is not to start an argument. Anyone who says anything is stating their own opinion(unless it has been scientifically proven). I just took the oppurtuninty to explain mine and to address some points which were brought up to counter them...

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#273874 - 09/28/06 11:08 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Craze]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Craze-


Welcome to the forums. Feel free to post your views and opinions. Thats what we all do here.

Arguments can be a good thing. Don't try and avoid them. If our only goal is to get at the truth, we should probably EMBRACE arguments.

Feel free and start some. You have my permission (so long as everyone plays fair).



-John

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#273875 - 09/28/06 11:39 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: JKogas]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
By all means start an arguement. its the only way to learn in this place. Most people here are civil enough to have a respectable debate without any hard feelings.

As to the original topic. Expect injuries. Bruises, torn muscles or ligaments, cuts and scrapes. Occasionally, it gets rougher than that but never intentionally. Its combat training, which means there is always risk for injury.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#273876 - 09/29/06 06:57 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: Craze]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
I'm not arguing with you craze. If you could hear me say the words instead of just reading them, you would hear a nice relaxed tone and it would all be said with a smile.

If anything, I'm curious about your technique and open minded in case you actually do know better. If you want, i can send you a video of myself punching to demonstrate what i mean. I've long since considered my punching technique one of, if not my greatest skill.
Anyway, i DO understand what you mean by the punch returning before it is fully extended, in that the full power of the punch can be felt at any distance as long as it is coming directly off your body, like a flywheel. It's just that i've read so many books and articles in punching, and i've yet to come across anything saying that the full extension should never be used.
The reason i said that we should agree to disagree, is because everytime i've repeatedly expressed a strong opinion, a moderator has closed the thread, even though i felt that i had more to say. Once again, this is to be read in a relaxed and calm tone, and is not a jab at any moderator. After all they obviously know their stuff

My opinions may be strong at times, but they are never said in anger or frustration.

I am genuinely interested in what you have to say, but i would also like to hear what the other experienced MAists have to say on this issue.
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#273877 - 09/29/06 07:06 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
http://www.hertao.com/punching-defense.html

image 3 is a good example of the position i'm talking about
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#273878 - 09/29/06 07:10 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
jkdwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 341
Loc: belfast, Antrim, Ireland
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=286235

And here's something to contradict everything i've just said
_________________________
Sticks n stones'll break my bones, but if I land the first one, you're in trouble!

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#273879 - 10/16/06 04:05 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: MartialMack]
5353 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/06
Posts: 109
Loc: yongstown
go and visit a class. my brother and i did and we wre hooked after 10 minutes. we also attended classes given by a instuctor certified by paul vunak and for injuries expect sore wrists shins, elbows, forearms etc... but it's nothing you can't handle don't be afraid go in without regards for yourself and you be fine


Edited by 5353 (10/16/06 04:08 PM)
_________________________
" not all who wonder are lost "

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#273880 - 10/19/06 06:06 PM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: jkdwarrior]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Quote:

http://www.hertao.com/punching-defense.html

image 3 is a good example of the position i'm talking about




mmmm but if B had hit A hard enough then A should be bent over and not in that position , B needs more heavy bag work.

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#273881 - 11/23/06 09:13 AM Re: What training injuries can I expect in JKD? [Re: ANDY44]
ddoa01 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 18
Loc: WA State
hmmm interesting thread. I've been reading the posts. I might add though that any martial art or physical form of conditioning their's always that "what if" of being injured, the chance your taking. As far as your concern goes I'd recommened wrist streghthening, such as wrist curls on a dumbbell or isometric wrist stregthening. Jeet Kune Do like any other form of combative training is gonna be physical and injuries are always a possibility. On the street your gonna get injured if you get into a fight. Even if it is one bruise.
_________________________
Mike Senior Master Instructor Defensive Defense Options Academy

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