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#271399 - 08/14/06 11:13 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Hi StuartA and all
I look forward to purchasing a copy of the book.
Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.
I credit Master Willy Lim with opening my eyes a long time ago.
http://www.classicaldimension.com/




Hi Doc,

You are not mistaken, that is almost entirely correct. Though some combination of techniques may have simply been 'pleaseing to the eye', I feel he had his own ideas about what they were for based on what he was taught!

I checked out Master Lims site before and it seemed almost a Tai Chi site. I have read some of his stuff many moons back but not much for years now and would dearly like to see some more.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271400 - 08/14/06 11:16 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The turning kick i kind of view as using a bit like the Muay Thai one because they take a step to the side



maybe in practce, but how often do that do that in the ring - hardly ever!

Quote:

If youv iv got my steal toe caps on i use for work or college i can shape as though i was using the ball of the foot though id end up hitting with the toe which wouldnt matter it ,wouldnt hurt me.
From what iv been taught and from the book and other research originaly soldiers were in heavy boots thats what was taken into account.



Yup, for sure. The military factor plays quite a big role in looking at applications

Quote:

Diffences are things like in Hwa-rang (iv not got the spelling in front of me if i wrong lol) the 3 punches in L-stance after the 2 turning kicks,knife hand gaurding block,



Hwa-Rangs not in the book (its in Vol 2)

Quote:

low block section iv seen done where people do them facing right then left then right virtualy all the way facing .some a little...me,im taught to face the front like it was a short close punch.Though if someone does it the other way they wont see how it could be that so their application would have to be differen.Thats an example though theres a few variations of different things.



Now Im confused!! Left, right, left then block!!!!

What org are you with btw?


Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271401 - 08/14/06 07:46 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
The kick..i mean low for self defence.
Im still learning and figuring so..

Haha confusion...oops.
It was just an example.Though to try to be clearer I mean after the walking stance low block facing forward (north) when you go into L- stance and do a punch and iv seen people punch to the east..then the next one towards west..then the next east..then back to forward (north) with the x fist pressing block.
My point was that with the diferences no wonder applications can be a grey area.
TAGB
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I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#271402 - 08/14/06 09:05 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The kick..i mean low for self defence.
Im still learning and figuring so..



Okay gotcha, but again, great if you got the time to side step and kick.. most situations dont give you that though! Dont get stuck in a mould with techniques.

Quote:

Haha confusion...oops.
It was just an example.Though to try to be clearer I mean after the walking stance low block facing forward (north) when you go into L- stance and do a punch and iv seen people punch to the east..then the next one towards west..then the next east..then back to forward (north) with the x fist pressing block.
My point was that with the diferences no wonder applications can be a grey area.
TAGB



Now I get what you are talking about. Yeh, the way you describe them is considered by many as old style. Ive asked loads why they punch in those directions and no one can explain (anyone got an explanation btw). we do them in a more forward direction but at the side of the body - like in the book, its most probible in any altercation (except multiple ones) that the oppoenent is in front of you!

Stuart
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"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271403 - 08/14/06 09:46 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Quote:

Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.

Let me correct myself !
The watering down seemingly came when the Okinawa passed on the art to the Japanese.General Choi restructured what he had learnt from the watered down shotokan karate and passed on these elementary movements in a new package. The applications in ITF TKD continue at this elementary level (block/kick/punch) throughout the syllabus.

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#271404 - 08/14/06 09:54 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Let me correct myself !
The watering down seemingly came when the Okinawa passed on the art to the Japanese.General Choi restructured what he had learnt from the watered down shotokan karate and passed on these elementary movements in a new package. The applications in ITF TKD continue at this elementary level (block/kick/punch) throughout the syllabus.




Actually, thats very well put IMO... though the last bit can read.. "until now"

All covered in the book btw.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271405 - 08/14/06 10:41 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Stuart - how do you see the ITF dealing with these 'new' applications. While I have greatest respect for Grand Master Rhee Ki Ha and his fellow ITF masters - they have been repeating the same elementary syllabus over and over for many years now and will have no desire to introduce anything new. As a ITF instructor and 'open minded' martial artist how do you deal with General Choi's applications when teaching beginners ?

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#271406 - 08/15/06 07:56 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Stuart - how do you see the ITF dealing with these 'new' applications.



Well, Ive even said in the book, I hope they take some of the stuff on board and introduce some of the things Ive said on an association level! Whether they will or not, time will tell!

Quote:

While I have greatest respect for Grand Master Rhee Ki Ha and his fellow ITF masters - they have been repeating the same elementary syllabus over and over for many years now and will have no desire to introduce anything new.



Well I do find it odd that at the last ITF(C) instructors course in Ireland, they did a Self Defence session and got someone with I believe Hapkido experience to teach high ranks in ITF TKD!! (Someone correct me if Im wrong please). GM Choi (son of..) stated that he believed the patterns were being oevrly formalised with the sine wave and lacking substance/effectiveness (or something similar) so students should not worry too much about being 100% sine-wavy and ensure they add lots of power to the point of almost being off-balance. Again, that would be cool if they used some of the stuff in the book, but its not gonna make much difference he they simply keep to many of the originally shown apps. Not sure about GM Rhee, but I know quite a few ITf instructors have the book and hopefully it will filter outwards one way or another!

Quote:

As a ITF instructor and 'open minded' martial artist how do you deal with General Choi's applications when teaching beginners ?



With beginners its not such a major big deal, though Ill usually say for training purposes "visualise this", then when they have a grip on the technique properly Ill introduce something a little more practical.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271407 - 08/15/06 09:08 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Thanks Stuart
Your publication is eagerly awaited.
Sounds like it will give me a route back into training at black belt level . My kids have recently started ITF TKD classes with an open-minded instructor and ,after years of training in other arts, I have wondered about dusting the dobok off and joining them . Will let you know how it goes

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#271408 - 08/15/06 01:04 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
With regards to differences in application and technique, itis worth remembering that ITF continually update their patterns and moves. This can make some moves look very different over time. For example, although all my instructors in UK learned under ITF and graded under people like GM Choi and GM Rhee Ki Ha, what I have been taught and what goes on in an ITF dojang these days sometimes seem very different.

One example is the grab release in do san. I was taught to twist downwards and to the right (perhaps pulling back a little beforehand). Last night, in an ITF dojang I found it a very different move.

Therefore, I'd suggest that any small changes to the moves in this book are probably negligible as the original moves themselves have probably changed over time.
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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