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#271359 - 07/15/06 07:36 AM Chang Hon Real Applications Book
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I thought some might be interested to know there is a book:

Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications to The ITF Patterns” by Stuart Anslow.

:that has either just come out or is comming out very soon.

I dont know too much about it yet though it seems interesting.
If any one has any more information on it or even has it,please post.
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#271360 - 07/17/06 01:58 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Here's a link.

Looks good

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

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#271361 - 07/17/06 09:36 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: trevek]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I really enjoyed the article patterns are the missing point. No matter how many times I read it, it's still an eye opener for me. The article entails all te points I ave ever tried to make with regards to patterns in TKD in this forum and all the points sjon, brians,oldman and a few others were trying to get me to understand.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
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#271362 - 07/25/06 01:28 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Ahemmmm .....

Hello, people. Just stopped in on my way back from the beach (¡¿?!), and I have to say:

Looking into my crystal ball, I predict that a new WTF pattern applications book will appear in the relatively near future (2-3 months), although I can't vouch for the integrity of the author ...

Darn, Trev, you caught me back here ...


Edited by sjon (07/25/06 01:30 PM)

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#271363 - 07/26/06 06:27 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: sjon]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
By any chance would the author be a member of this forum?

I hope they go into great detail in te descriptions and lots of photo's.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#271364 - 07/26/06 01:26 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Quote:

By any chance would the author be a member of this forum?




Yes he would.

Quote:

I hope they go into great detail in te descriptions and lots of photo's.




They fully intend to.

Now I must get back to my temporary exile. I have much to do.
_________________________
www.combat-tkd.com

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#271365 - 07/26/06 05:44 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: sjon]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
I hope I can get an autographed copy. It would really be cool to show my instructor a book about forms and thier applications and to let him know that the author of the book is someone I have debated on line. To my knowledge there are currently no books on WTF forms and their application in self defense. Plenty of books on form, but no application. I hope your's becomes a top seller, who knows perhaps you will be the new standard for all WTF schools. If that is the case, I'd have to go to spain and have my picture taken with you, because you would be an icon in WTf TKD. This could be a pivital point in which WTF TKD goes from focus on sparring back to a well rounded art which focuses both on sparring and self defense.

You may even get an honorary 5th dan from the WTF. Ofcourse I bet they would still charge you $500+

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#271366 - 07/28/06 10:47 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
mcmillintkd Offline
Member

Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 88
I have this book. I have to say that it is my favorite book on TKD. It has me thinking about the ITF hyungs in a new way and TKD in general in a new way. If you have not already then you should buy this. Great book.

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#271367 - 08/02/06 01:47 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: mcmillintkd]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Whats so good about the book? Does it show direct applications for each movement? How, altered are the tecniques in order to work in a self defense application? Are the directions easy to follow? WHat are the illustrations like? Are the small nuances of the techniques disussed or even mentioned? Many times in the martial arts it is not the big noticable moves that make the difference but the small behind the scenes techniques which make the big ones work. A good example of this can be seen in aikido, judo and grappling systems where it may seem that force and power is being used against an attack when infact it is the attackes own momentum that is being used against him. Perhaps it is not the throw or arm lever which made the opponent fall or submit, but the small wrist or finger twist which was done durring the big movmenets actions. These small tecniques are often not scene and in may books over looked by the authors. I have personally found that in many step sparring a.k.a. one-three step sparring. The exercises are missing that smal feint or tiny jolt type of technique which allows the big ones to work. Sure the techniques combine may seem sound and infact they are, but against a willing opponent who is alowing you to train on. They are not so simple against a resisting opponenet who does not know your intentions. And that is where the real martial arts take place. The little things that make the big techniques work.

Sjon,

I hope your taking notes my friend. Your book should address this issue.

That is why when I bought Hee Il Cho's book on step sparring, i only took the few which looked reasonably applicable, however, I have to add in the lack of techniques which actually make it work in a real scenerio. Ofcourse it is all subjective.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#271368 - 08/02/06 05:18 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Tek,

Although I agree with some of the things you said, the other thing is how the technique doesn't HAVE to be the actual technique that is in the form. First off, if you are not familiar with the ITF patterns and have not seen the book (and I haven't seen it but would like to), I would not be so quick to tell the author to take notes (he may ask you what you have published). It'sO.K. to critique, but know what you are critiquing. As I had mentioned above, the technique does not have to be the actual technique from the pattern, but can be utilized in the set up for multiple applications (this is how I break them down to their practicality). The downward block could be a release, the finger tip thrust could be a grab to pull in for a knee strike or elbow smash. The slide back with a strike could be feint or side step. I the moves are not all cut and dry, and I do agree that there should be some explanation about the smaller unnoticable movements or techniques that make the bigger ones work. However, I think the difference with this book versus your SD book is the explanation of the application rather than a how to. Again, I will be looking for it as so I can see it. sjon, will it be in book stores or is it only available on-line ?

VDJ

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#271369 - 08/02/06 08:53 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Hi,

I hope you dont mind me popping on here. A friend pointed me in this direction and I see there are some questions that I may be able to answer.

Though obviously I can be considered biased, as its my book, you can read others reviews at this link: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/HaeSul/HaeSul_reviews.html so you dont have to take my word for anything.

Anyway, onto TeK9's points:

1. Whats so good about the book?
IMO it covers many uncovered areas of TKD with indepth information. Though I guess its best to let others say.

2. Does it show direct applications for each movement?
Yes

3. How, altered are the tecniques in order to work in a self defense application?
Not much or not at all for many. Though there are multiple applications offered, some require small alterations, but not by much. Most as I said require none at all

4. Are the small nuances of the techniques disussed or even mentioned?
Yes, there is much text to help with the photos and discuss details, which are pretty indepth & easy to follow anyway.

5. These small tecniques are often not scene and in may books over looked by the authors
I agree, that is why I have gone into so much detail. Hopefully others will confirm this.

6. ...but against a willing opponent who is alowing you to train on.
Training the applications is also covered in the book, as well as many other areas like pattern history, differences to other arts and other interesting bits.

I hope that helps.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271370 - 08/02/06 08:57 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
VDJ said:
Quote:


However, I think the difference with this book versus your SD book is the explanation of the application rather than a how to.




As mentioned in the previous post, the book not only covers applications, but how to train them and how to utilize them in real situations.

No point giving the tools by not letting anyone know how to use them!

Thanks,

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (08/02/06 09:13 PM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271371 - 08/02/06 09:03 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
StuartA from ITF-ONLINE, right ? Welcome to this forum, I see that they finally shut the board down over there. I apologize, I thought that sjon was the author. Will it be available in stores in the US or is it only available online ? Again, welcome aboard !

VDJ

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#271372 - 08/02/06 09:12 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

StuartA from ITF-ONLINE, right ? Welcome to this forum, I see that they finally shut the board down over there. I apologize, I thought that sjon was the author. Will it be available in stores in the US or is it only available online ? Again, welcome aboard !

VDJ




LOL - the very same, though I havnt been there for a while. What name do you post under on there btw?

The book is published in the US, just order via Amazon or any US book store!

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271373 - 08/02/06 09:28 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Always posted as VDJ. I stopped posting over there awhile ago as well (but would take a looskie every now and again), It was getting waaaay out of hand with the insults and such and no moderators.I went to take my periodical look yesterday and saw the notice that the discussion forum was shut down due to "Abuses".

VDJ

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#271374 - 08/02/06 09:36 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Yeah, sure was, hence why I havnt visited recently as well.

So, have I convinced you to go get a copy of the book?



Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271375 - 08/02/06 09:42 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Yeah, sure was, hence why I havnt visited recently as well.

So, have I convinced you to go get a copy of the book?



Stuart




No convincing needed here, I always believed that there were applications, now Tek on the other hand .................. He just recently came to see the light after I and several others here helped him to see the errors of his ways, but as you can see, he still holds a bit of skepticism. I will be looking to get a copy, I wish you much success with it.

VDJ

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#271376 - 08/03/06 01:25 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
VDJ,

I hope you didn't get the wrong impression that I was critiquing Stuart Anslows book, I have yet to see it. What I was doing was reminding Sjon about these things incase he pops up on the board and catches my post. I am very much looking forward to sjon's.

Currently, I've been checking Barnes and Nobles for Mr. Anslows book on the Chun Chi forms but they don't carry it. I don't want to order it because then they assume I want to purchase it and I like to look over what I buy.

I mentioned Sjon's name while I was on topic about authors many times over looking those small techniques because many illustrated books do not contain them. I understand some form of the technique must be altered in order for it to be applicabale to self defense, howeve, I hope tat it does not deviate to much, otherwise I would prefer to teach and practice the actual technique itself rather than practicing it in a poomse/hyung form.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#271377 - 08/03/06 01:33 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
StuartA,

Wow, what better way to get my answers than from the horses mouth. Thanks for taking the time and contributing to the forum and answering all of my questions. Often many students recommend books and yet never say why, I figured I would ask, but I never thought the auhor would answer. I look forward to reading and hopfully purchasing your book.

-Tek
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

Top
#271378 - 08/03/06 06:46 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

VDJ,

I hope you didn't get the wrong impression that I was critiquing Stuart Anslows book,



Honestly, I didnt get that impresion either. Questioning is healthy and fine.

Quote:

Currently, I've been checking Barnes and Nobles for Mr. Anslows book on the Chun Chi forms but they don't carry it.



Yes they do - Hae Sul on Barnes & Noble Site . If you are refering to a traditional book store, they often require people to ask about it (as opposed to order it - which also helps) before they put a copy on the shelf, as space is limited, even in the biggest bookshops.

A tip when searching for it on online sites is to use the term 'Hae Sul'.


Hope that helps,

Regards,

Stuart


Edited by StuartA (08/03/06 06:49 AM)
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271379 - 08/03/06 06:47 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

StuartA,

Wow, what better way to get my answers than from the horses mouth. Thanks for taking the time and contributing to the forum and answering all of my questions. Often many students recommend books and yet never say why, I figured I would ask, but I never thought the auhor would answer. I look forward to reading and hopfully purchasing your book.

-Tek




My pleasure. Im glad I could be of help.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271380 - 08/03/06 08:13 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

VDJ,

I hope you didn't get the wrong impression that I was critiquing Stuart Anslows book, I have yet to see it. What I was doing was reminding Sjon about these things incase he pops up on the board and catches my post. I am very much looking forward to sjon's.

Currently, I've been checking Barnes and Nobles for Mr. Anslows book on the Chun Chi forms but they don't carry it. I don't want to order it because then they assume I want to purchase it and I like to look over what I buy.

I mentioned Sjon's name while I was on topic about authors many times over looking those small techniques because many illustrated books do not contain them. I understand some form of the technique must be altered in order for it to be applicabale to self defense, howeve, I hope tat it does not deviate to much, otherwise I would prefer to teach and practice the actual technique itself rather than practicing it in a poomse/hyung form.




Sorry if I misunderstood.

VDJ

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#271381 - 08/03/06 03:01 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
sjon Offline
Smiter of the smited

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 186
Loc: Spain
Hi Stuart, and welcome. We have met on Iain's forum. Nice to see you here. I haven't seen the book yet, but the preview looks great.

Well, some of you seem to have guessed the reason for my absence of late. I hope not to disappoint. Even more so now that Stuart has beaten me to the post! Although my focus is a little different and is WTF-oriented.

Cheers, people. See you in the relatively near future.
_________________________
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#271382 - 08/03/06 04:51 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: sjon]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Hi Stuart, and welcome. We have met on Iain's forum. Nice to see you here. I haven't seen the book yet, but the preview looks great.



Hi Sjon.. is it Simon O over there btw?

So your writting a book too eh! Interesting. Im not too up on the WTF forms but it should prove interesting, how far alog are you with it?

Regards,

Stuart

Ps. I love all the smileys on this site.. the best Ive seen
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271383 - 08/03/06 05:04 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Hi Stuart,

I am thinking very hard about purchasing your book. Do you have a sample page posted somewhere that we could look at? All I've seen is the cover of the book.

Thank you for taking the time to talk with us on here, and good luck with the book.

Laura

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#271384 - 08/03/06 05:26 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Ps. I love all the smileys on this site.. the best Ive seen




You're welcome.

I like your signature quote. Couldn't have said it better myself. Welcome to the forums.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#271385 - 08/03/06 07:31 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: MattJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:


You're welcome.

I like your signature quote. Couldn't have said it better myself. Welcome to the forums.




Hi Matt... thanks for the welcome.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271386 - 08/03/06 10:32 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Hi Stuart,

I am thinking very hard about purchasing your book. Do you have a sample page posted somewhere that we could look at? All I've seen is the cover of the book.

Thank you for taking the time to talk with us on here, and good luck with the book.

Laura




Hi Laura,

Im afraid not and TBH, a sample page or two wouldnt IMO do it justice as it covers many areas of TKD.

I guess you`ll just have to take others reviews on board and make a judgement call!

There are more reviews to be found here: Hae Sul Reviews

thats the best I can offer for now, sorry,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271387 - 08/06/06 09:14 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Hi.I got the book and its a gold mine.
It is very in depth and alot of effort has gone into it and it shows.
Maximum respect.
The greatest thing i think is it will open the imagination for students to find their own applications too as well as take the ones offered on board.And its given me lots of ideas for higher patterns.

There are some small differences in technique from how im taught and i hope this doesnt effect the applications.
The chambers in the book for a low, middle or high block or a strike where the arms cross have the reaction arm horizontal and the elbow up where as im taught to keep the elbow down and the arm vertical.
Also the W shape block has the arms staying as they are when you move where as im taught to chamber in almost the same way you would for an inner forearm inward block.

There are other little differences though that would be going really anal..haha.
In tournements i always notice differences in patterns and some are major, some are small and i think no wonder patterns divide opinions.
TKD seems to be the most divided of martial arts haha.

Iv also been taught the turning kick is to a target thats off centre ,not infront.
You seem to have done alot of research im interested in your views.Cheers.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#271388 - 08/06/06 05:16 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I have the book & love it. It is a must for any ITF stylist. I loved the background info & will be getting into the meat of the book this week.

Good Luck!

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#271389 - 08/06/06 05:18 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: ITFunity]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I forgot to add that the book & author ask for critiques & provides an avenue to do so. That is what most impressed me. I believe the author will use that info to update the book & expand it. Very noble.

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#271390 - 08/09/06 12:16 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Thanks for the kind comments ITFunity & Matxtx.


Matxtx the turning kick picture I think you are refering to is to illustrate the difference in technique between shotokan & TKD. The actual application of a turning kick is varied and I too have been taught similar, though I must say in SD is works well if you are quick (to move and kick) but in reality how often do you have the scope to do that in fighting/sparring. To me, the way things are performed in sparring are often slightly different to fighting (hence why I broach them as different subjects that compliment/correspond with each other in the book).


May schools also have minor differences, I come from a Ch'ang Hon system and even though I know of many of the chnages (see sine wave article) I dont forcefully terach them (but do teach of them - ie. i inform my studnets) as I personally believe they actively go against what is needed for effective TKD and its role in SD.

Thanks again guys,

Stuart

ps. Feel free to add your reviews to amazon
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271391 - 08/13/06 02:26 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yea lots of differences.lol.
I totaly agree on the sign wave....id not been taught the over exagerated way or even heard of it untill i came on here!

Whats your veiw on the slow motion techniques that appear,you dont mention them in the book yet there is some in Joong Gun and Toi-Gye.Just demonstating the theory of power with out speed and exercises?

The thing that has always got me about applications is how much change to do to make things like blocks change to locks and breaks.
The chambering seems to be important and iv seen people chamber different ways.Some take ages and do unessasary things with their arms like moving them back far or doing too much with them or even virtualy stop completly in a chamber.YET this might be good when you use them as locks yet not if you use them as blocks.lol....it confussles me.
If i do a block to use as a block or a cover i need to do it different than if i use it for a lock or break so what do i train for?haha.

Im lucky iv been introduced to things by a third dan and my instuctor who have had seminars and lessons with Willie Lim who is meant to be S***t hot at applications and some others though i have to ask them to get ideas and i seem to be the only one in my class intersted in it too.Sad realy.I hope this book blows it all open and it makes others HAVE to take notice.
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#271392 - 08/13/06 04:08 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Slow motion techniques were originally there because they depicted an application that was deemed 'to dangerous' to practice at speed, for example the elbow break in Joong-Gun. However, whether they were just 'ported in' from what the General learnt or whether they had real substance due to the application is unknown.

Many schools have swapped and changed which moves are slow motion these days and some are more standard across the board than others. Ive seen some schools perform in slow motion techniques that Ive never been taught to do that way, again going back to Instructors/orgs/GM's chnaging them for reasons other than the original I first mentioned. Hence why I didnt reference it as a major point.


With regards to chambering, Ive always believed that as a block, that should be less & less and things 'click' into place, like hip twist, which I believe is covered in the book but as you say, full chambers are not wasted as they help with lock/break and follow through, therefore during solo practice they are not wasted and in reality its doubtful your reflexes would allow a full chamber to 'block' something, even if you did managed use a block as the name intends!

I remember some Willy lim stuff years back in the MA magazines (Im talking 10+ years) but never seen or heard anything else since.


With regards to others not being interested, thats ashame and could hamper you a bit - perhaps get a copy for your instructor to 'up' his interest .

Stuart

Ps. Re: differences - what org are you with?

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#271393 - 08/13/06 04:35 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
ITFunity Offline
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Posts: 2053
From my understanding of slow motion, according to Gen Choi, it was 2 fold. 1st was to emphasize the coordination of the eyes, hands, feet & breat (into 1 single coordinated movement) (as per the training secret of Taekwon-Do). 2nd it was to remind that attacks come or may come in different speeds.

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#271394 - 08/13/06 04:57 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
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Posts: 700
Loc: england
Im with the TAGB.
Even within that though there are differences.lol.

I did mention the book to my instructor breifly before i had it and he said i should go as deep as i like by all means.I was asking and he showed me things though seemed to favour me coming up with my own saying nothing is definite.He said that instructors pass around ideas ,some he agrees with some he doesnt, so he did seem a bit sceptical to be honest.yet maybe if another instructor mentions the book he will take more notice lol.

We do everything you mention like sweeps,locks,takedowns,breaking,more heavy contact sparring if both agree etc heading towards realer TKD though no pattern sparring which i reckon i need to do to learn more and that i realy want to do.
Do you have justt he one school? Your a bit far away though id like to train in this stuff
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#271395 - 08/13/06 06:02 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: ITFunity]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

From my understanding of slow motion, according to Gen Choi, it was 2 fold. 1st was to emphasize the coordination of the eyes, hands, feet & breat (into 1 single coordinated movement) (as per the training secret of Taekwon-Do). 2nd it was to remind that attacks come or may come in different speeds.




Yup, heard both of them.

My only issue with them is that they apply to moves whether fast or slow do they not? Though I gotta say I feel though the 1st reason you mention may be relevant, then 2nd feels a little weak to me in all honesty.

Like I said, its a hazy area, but in my research slow moves in pre-TKD katas meant danger and emphaised control when practicing with a partner.

Stuart

ps. these would make great discussions on a certain site mentioned in the book?
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#271396 - 08/13/06 06:06 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Im with the TAGB.
Even within that though there are differences.lol.



No doubt

Quote:

I did mention the book to my instructor breifly before i had it and he said i should go as deep as i like by all means.I was asking and he showed me things though seemed to favour me coming up with my own saying nothing is definite.He said that instructors pass around ideas ,some he agrees with some he doesnt, so he did seem a bit sceptical to be honest.yet maybe if another instructor mentions the book he will take more notice lol.



Has he seen the book himself? The main idea of the book is to hopefully promote and propogate this side of training more. Many instructors bandy around ideas for moves, thats cool, but being able to perfrom applications from the start to end gives them much more depth.

Quote:

We do everything you mention like sweeps,locks,takedowns,breaking,more heavy contact sparring if both agree etc heading towards realer TKD though no pattern sparring which i reckon i need to do to learn more and that i realy want to do.



Maybe a few like minded individuals can impliment it between you all!


Quote:

Do you have justt he one school? Your a bit far away though id like to train in this stuff



Fraid so

Stuart
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#271397 - 08/14/06 09:04 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Doc Offline
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Hi StuartA and all
I look forward to purchasing a copy of the book.
Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.
I credit Master Willy Lim with opening my eyes a long time ago.
http://www.classicaldimension.com/

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#271398 - 08/14/06 10:02 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
matxtx Offline
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Wily Lim is still about he did a seminar earlier this year and last year though i didnt go unfortunitly.

The turning kick i kind of view as using a bit like the Muay Thai one because they take a step to the side
If youv iv got my steal toe caps on i use for work or college i can shape as though i was using the ball of the foot though id end up hitting with the toe which wouldnt matter it ,wouldnt hurt me.
From what iv been taught and from the book and other research originaly soldiers were in heavy boots thats what was taken into account.

Diffences are things like in Hwa-rang (iv not got the spelling in front of me if i wrong lol) the 3 punches in L-stance after the 2 turning kicks,knife hand gaurding block,low block section iv seen done where people do them facing right then left then right virtualy all the way facing .some a little...me,im taught to face the front like it was a short close punch.Though if someone does it the other way they wont see how it could be that so their application would have to be differen.Thats an example though theres a few variations of different things.
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#271399 - 08/14/06 11:13 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Hi StuartA and all
I look forward to purchasing a copy of the book.
Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.
I credit Master Willy Lim with opening my eyes a long time ago.
http://www.classicaldimension.com/




Hi Doc,

You are not mistaken, that is almost entirely correct. Though some combination of techniques may have simply been 'pleaseing to the eye', I feel he had his own ideas about what they were for based on what he was taught!

I checked out Master Lims site before and it seemed almost a Tai Chi site. I have read some of his stuff many moons back but not much for years now and would dearly like to see some more.

Stuart
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#271400 - 08/14/06 11:16 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

The turning kick i kind of view as using a bit like the Muay Thai one because they take a step to the side



maybe in practce, but how often do that do that in the ring - hardly ever!

Quote:

If youv iv got my steal toe caps on i use for work or college i can shape as though i was using the ball of the foot though id end up hitting with the toe which wouldnt matter it ,wouldnt hurt me.
From what iv been taught and from the book and other research originaly soldiers were in heavy boots thats what was taken into account.



Yup, for sure. The military factor plays quite a big role in looking at applications

Quote:

Diffences are things like in Hwa-rang (iv not got the spelling in front of me if i wrong lol) the 3 punches in L-stance after the 2 turning kicks,knife hand gaurding block,



Hwa-Rangs not in the book (its in Vol 2)

Quote:

low block section iv seen done where people do them facing right then left then right virtualy all the way facing .some a little...me,im taught to face the front like it was a short close punch.Though if someone does it the other way they wont see how it could be that so their application would have to be differen.Thats an example though theres a few variations of different things.



Now Im confused!! Left, right, left then block!!!!

What org are you with btw?


Stuart
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#271401 - 08/14/06 07:46 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
matxtx Offline
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The kick..i mean low for self defence.
Im still learning and figuring so..

Haha confusion...oops.
It was just an example.Though to try to be clearer I mean after the walking stance low block facing forward (north) when you go into L- stance and do a punch and iv seen people punch to the east..then the next one towards west..then the next east..then back to forward (north) with the x fist pressing block.
My point was that with the diferences no wonder applications can be a grey area.
TAGB
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#271402 - 08/14/06 09:05 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
StuartA Offline
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Posts: 443
Quote:

The kick..i mean low for self defence.
Im still learning and figuring so..



Okay gotcha, but again, great if you got the time to side step and kick.. most situations dont give you that though! Dont get stuck in a mould with techniques.

Quote:

Haha confusion...oops.
It was just an example.Though to try to be clearer I mean after the walking stance low block facing forward (north) when you go into L- stance and do a punch and iv seen people punch to the east..then the next one towards west..then the next east..then back to forward (north) with the x fist pressing block.
My point was that with the diferences no wonder applications can be a grey area.
TAGB



Now I get what you are talking about. Yeh, the way you describe them is considered by many as old style. Ive asked loads why they punch in those directions and no one can explain (anyone got an explanation btw). we do them in a more forward direction but at the side of the body - like in the book, its most probible in any altercation (except multiple ones) that the oppoenent is in front of you!

Stuart
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#271403 - 08/14/06 09:46 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
Doc Offline
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Quote:

Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.

Let me correct myself !
The watering down seemingly came when the Okinawa passed on the art to the Japanese.General Choi restructured what he had learnt from the watered down shotokan karate and passed on these elementary movements in a new package. The applications in ITF TKD continue at this elementary level (block/kick/punch) throughout the syllabus.

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#271404 - 08/14/06 09:54 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
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Quote:

Let me correct myself !
The watering down seemingly came when the Okinawa passed on the art to the Japanese.General Choi restructured what he had learnt from the watered down shotokan karate and passed on these elementary movements in a new package. The applications in ITF TKD continue at this elementary level (block/kick/punch) throughout the syllabus.




Actually, thats very well put IMO... though the last bit can read.. "until now"

All covered in the book btw.

Regards,

Stuart
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#271405 - 08/14/06 10:41 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Doc Offline
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Stuart - how do you see the ITF dealing with these 'new' applications. While I have greatest respect for Grand Master Rhee Ki Ha and his fellow ITF masters - they have been repeating the same elementary syllabus over and over for many years now and will have no desire to introduce anything new. As a ITF instructor and 'open minded' martial artist how do you deal with General Choi's applications when teaching beginners ?

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#271406 - 08/15/06 07:56 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
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Posts: 443
Quote:

Stuart - how do you see the ITF dealing with these 'new' applications.



Well, Ive even said in the book, I hope they take some of the stuff on board and introduce some of the things Ive said on an association level! Whether they will or not, time will tell!

Quote:

While I have greatest respect for Grand Master Rhee Ki Ha and his fellow ITF masters - they have been repeating the same elementary syllabus over and over for many years now and will have no desire to introduce anything new.



Well I do find it odd that at the last ITF(C) instructors course in Ireland, they did a Self Defence session and got someone with I believe Hapkido experience to teach high ranks in ITF TKD!! (Someone correct me if Im wrong please). GM Choi (son of..) stated that he believed the patterns were being oevrly formalised with the sine wave and lacking substance/effectiveness (or something similar) so students should not worry too much about being 100% sine-wavy and ensure they add lots of power to the point of almost being off-balance. Again, that would be cool if they used some of the stuff in the book, but its not gonna make much difference he they simply keep to many of the originally shown apps. Not sure about GM Rhee, but I know quite a few ITf instructors have the book and hopefully it will filter outwards one way or another!

Quote:

As a ITF instructor and 'open minded' martial artist how do you deal with General Choi's applications when teaching beginners ?



With beginners its not such a major big deal, though Ill usually say for training purposes "visualise this", then when they have a grip on the technique properly Ill introduce something a little more practical.

Stuart
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#271407 - 08/15/06 09:08 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Doc Offline
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Thanks Stuart
Your publication is eagerly awaited.
Sounds like it will give me a route back into training at black belt level . My kids have recently started ITF TKD classes with an open-minded instructor and ,after years of training in other arts, I have wondered about dusting the dobok off and joining them . Will let you know how it goes

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#271408 - 08/15/06 01:04 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
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With regards to differences in application and technique, itis worth remembering that ITF continually update their patterns and moves. This can make some moves look very different over time. For example, although all my instructors in UK learned under ITF and graded under people like GM Choi and GM Rhee Ki Ha, what I have been taught and what goes on in an ITF dojang these days sometimes seem very different.

One example is the grab release in do san. I was taught to twist downwards and to the right (perhaps pulling back a little beforehand). Last night, in an ITF dojang I found it a very different move.

Therefore, I'd suggest that any small changes to the moves in this book are probably negligible as the original moves themselves have probably changed over time.
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#271409 - 08/15/06 01:43 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Thanks Stuart
Your publication is eagerly awaited.
Sounds like it will give me a route back into training at black belt level . My kids have recently started ITF TKD classes with an open-minded instructor and ,after years of training in other arts, I have wondered about dusting the dobok off and joining them . Will let you know how it goes




If it got you back into TKD that would be fantastic and great bonus to hear. Please keep me updated.

Thanks,

Stuart
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#271410 - 08/15/06 01:48 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
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Quote:

With regards to differences in application and technique, itis worth remembering that ITF continually update their patterns and moves. This can make some moves look very different over time. For example, although all my instructors in UK learned under ITF and graded under people like GM Choi and GM Rhee Ki Ha, what I have been taught and what goes on in an ITF dojang these days sometimes seem very different.



Oh yes for sure. The unfortunte offshoot is both politics and competition has effected many apps. One of the things in the book is to ensure that these small differences are not lost forever.

Quote:

One example is the grab release in do san. I was taught to twist downwards and to the right (perhaps pulling back a little beforehand). Last night, in an ITF dojang I found it a very different move.



last year I trained with the ITF Argentina national coach (Master Maidana) and he discussed how the application has been changed/formalised for competition. The problem was, it no longer made it a viable technique for the original application (even the manual one)!! Which I pointed out to him!!

Quote:

Therefore, I'd suggest that any small changes to the moves in this book are probably negligible as the original moves themselves have probably changed over time.



As long as they havnt chnaged too much and students know of what has changed, application s can still be incorported. Take the combination at the start of Won-Hyo. ITF no longer teach the grab... why, I dont know, but the rest is identical - so a student can re-incorporte such things into their training.

Stuart
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#271411 - 08/17/06 10:46 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Quote:

ITF no longer teach the grab...




Uhhh... I go to an ITF school, and I was taught the "grab" from the moment I started learning Won Hyo.

I did finally break down and buy your book. From my limited experience and understanding of tkd, it appeared solid. Many of the techniques you described are the same locks and take-downs I am currently being taught. We don't get into that much at our school until we reach red belt, so I'm only just getting started in that area. I will admit that some of the applications left me scratching my head a bit. Some of the techniques just seemed a bit too complicated to be effective, but that could just be from my lack of experience.

My instructor has run off with my copy, so I can't quote specific pages, nor can I really comment on the techniques or their application, but I do have some technical suggestions as far as the layout of the book goes, which I hope you may find useful.

1) I still think you should take a few screen shots of a page or two of your book and post them on amazon. Being able to browse the book before you buy it, even with a limited number of pages means people are more likely to buy it. That and I think the layout you've chosen would work well to tease people into wanting to read more.

2) When displaying a sequence of moves, I think it would be useful if those moves were sequenced numerically. Especially as people read left to right, but the images often went right to left. This made it harder to follow the direction of the moves, especially when you rotated the pictures to better view the move.

3) In some of the pictures it became difficult to tell who was attacking and who was defending. I recommend possibly having the attacker and defender in different colored uniforms.

All in all, not bad. One of the things I did notice was your description of the double forearm guarding block and how its changed from Karate to TKD. Interestingly enough, what I am being taught, and what I see at all of the tournaments I've been to, is what you indicate is the Karate version. Shrug.

Since the next book isn't available yet, I am curious to know what you feel the applications are for the first two moves of Chung-Mu.

Thanks
Laura

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#271412 - 08/17/06 11:14 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
VDJ Offline
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Laura,

Where did you find the book ? I have been unable to find it yet.

VDJ

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#271413 - 08/17/06 11:44 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
tkd_high_green Offline
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I ordered it online from barnes and nobles. I had trouble with amazons site. Barnes and Nobles

Laura

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#271414 - 08/17/06 05:13 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
StuartA Offline
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Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Uhhh... I go to an ITF school, and I was taught the "grab" from the moment I started learning Won Hyo.



Do you mean an ITF school or Ch'ang Hon style school. I ask as the two are different even though many refer to the style as ITF it is in fact an organisation (well 3 actually). Many schools teach 'ITF' but are no longer part of the ITF per se - I refer to the current ITF(C) in things like that. Though I may be wrong, I also suspect that you follow the Ch'ang Hon system rather than being under the ITF by the ay you decribe grades eg. High Green, High Red etc. ITF (the orgs) dont use that AFAIK!

Quote:

I did finally break down and buy your book. From my limited experience and understanding of tkd, it appeared solid. Many of the techniques you described are the same locks and take-downs I am currently being taught. We don't get into that much at our school until we reach red belt, so I'm only just getting started in that area. I will admit that some of the applications left me scratching my head a bit. Some of the techniques just seemed a bit too complicated to be effective, but that could just be from my lack of experience.



With all patterns and applications, just pick the ones you like or work for you and discard any others. Drilling is vitaly important for making apps work for you, just knowing isnt enough IMO.

Quote:

My instructor has run off with my copy,



Who is your instructor/school? Guess you may hopefully be learning some new apps soon as well then!

Quote:

so I can't quote specific pages, nor can I really comment on the techniques or their application, but I do have some technical suggestions as far as the layout of the book goes, which I hope you may find useful.



Thanks.

Quote:

1) I still think you should take a few screen shots of a page or two of your book and post them on amazon. Being able to browse the book before you buy it, even with a limited number of pages means people are more likely to buy it. That and I think the layout you've chosen would work well to tease people into wanting to read more.

2) When displaying a sequence of moves, I think it would be useful if those moves were sequenced numerically. Especially as people read left to right, but the images often went right to left. This made it harder to follow the direction of the moves, especially when you rotated the pictures to better view the move.




Point 1 is noted and was originally something the publisher advised against. Point 2 I get what you mean, but decided to run them in their most viewable form to aid clarity (so limbs arnt covered etc), sometimes that meant going right to left Im afraid.

Quote:

3) In some of the pictures it became difficult to tell who was attacking and who was defending. I recommend possibly having the attacker and defender in different colored uniforms.



Just go backwards in the pics LOL. Seriously, thats a point we have already considered but may mean everyone buying new doboks just for the book

Quote:

All in all, not bad. One of the things I did notice was your description of the double forearm guarding block and how its changed from Karate to TKD. Interestingly enough, what I am being taught, and what I see at all of the tournaments I've been to, is what you indicate is the Karate version. Shrug.



Well, if you do it with the arm turned in, thats 'old' style (see sine wave appendix) - even Gen Chois manuals show it as in the pictures!

Quote:

Since the next book isn't available yet, I am curious to know what you feel the applications are for the first two moves of Chung-Mu.



It isnt too far off so Il say this for now, my favorite ap ends in an arm lock and you should be lookng into move#3 as well . More importantly, whats your take on it?

Stuart

Ps. Oh okay, simultanious parry and chamber, strike and control, following into an arm lock (just one of a few)


Edited by StuartA (08/17/06 06:19 PM)
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#271415 - 08/18/06 04:30 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
TeK9 Offline
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Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Laura

How much did it cost you, I think I'm going to buy the book. Although I really really, don't want to go back and practice the chon chi forms. But I figure the movements are basically the same as the taegueks just in different sequences.

Um, if you don't want to mention the price could you please just private message me, thanks.

The buzz on this book is driving me insane, I must have it. The information clerk at barnes and nobles is pretty annoyed with me because I've asked him theyhave the book in stock for nearly the past 2 weeks. They know me in that store.
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#271416 - 08/18/06 10:09 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
tkd_high_green Offline
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Quote:

Do you mean an ITF school or Ch'ang Hon style school.




Our school belongs to several organizations. Not that I really care, but we do have a big ol ITF Flag hanging on the wall in the school. The pattern set we do is the one you are discussing in your book. Chon-Ji, Dan-gun, etc. Does that answer your question?

Quote:

Guess you may hopefully be learning some new apps soon as well then!




I learn something new every class. As I mentioned before, locks and take downs are only taught to older advanced students, so I've only just begun (within the last 6 months or so) being introduced to these techniques. There are only so many techniques a person can learn at one time before their brain cramps

Quote:

Point 2 I get what you mean, but decided to run them in their most viewable form to aid clarity (so limbs arnt covered etc), sometimes that meant going right to left Im afraid.




I agree that the order makes sense for clarity, I was just suggesting, numbering the pictures, like you do when you showed the whole pattern. That way, no matter which way you had them, it would be obvious which picture went first.

Quote:

Seriously, thats a point we have already considered but may mean everyone buying new doboks just for the book




ok, how about a head band?

Quote:

More importantly, whats your take on it?




Well, my first thought, besides the one in the encylopedia, stemmed from the fact that I wasn't doing any counter balance between the first and second move, when I first learned the pattern, So it looked an awful lot like you were snapping someones neck. Once you throw in the counter balance though, it doesn't make as much sense. Shrug. Ramblings of an over-tired insomnia induced mind.

Laura

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#271417 - 08/18/06 07:28 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
HMFC Offline
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Have read a lot of comments about this book and will be looking to purchase it asap. Regardless of your TKD affiliation the author is a very highly regarded TKD instructor and must be worth a read.

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#271418 - 08/20/06 09:36 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: HMFC]
Doc Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
Ordered my signed copy direct from the author last Wednesday night and it arrived this morning ( Monday ) - impressive as I live in Australia
Plan to take a break this week from my own Masters examination studies ( academic - not TKD ) to look over it.
On first inspection - it is well worth the investment and will open up a whole can of worms for those TKD instuctors who inflict the 'mushroom syndrome ' on their students.

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#271419 - 08/20/06 10:44 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Are the applications the usual such as middle block, punch, high block punch, low block punch, knife hand block punch, reinforced block punch etc.? Or is there grappling, joint locks, throwns, pressure points etc. like iain abernethy's stuff
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#271420 - 08/21/06 11:34 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Stormdragon]
Doc Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 10
IMP this book should be given to all new ITF black belts along with their degree certificate.
I have not seen Iain Abernethy's work but I would think it would be along similar lines ( there is a foreword by him and a reference in the bibliography).
This volume allows the practitioner to progress from the current 'primary school' applications to a 'secondary / high school' way of thinking. It also a couple of minor references to possible further areas of study at 'university level' for those that want to research further into TCM pressure points / Dim Mak / cycle of destruction etc. However this is not a book on Dim Mak but rather the practical applications of learned TKD movements to attack vital areas of the body using the hidden blocks,stikes,joint locks and throwing techniques contained within the patterns.
I am thoroghly enjoying the book and recommend it to the higher TKD coloured belts and black belts who are well versed in the ' primary school' applications.

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#271421 - 08/22/06 05:57 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:


Our school belongs to several organizations. Not that I really care, but we do have a big ol ITF Flag hanging on the wall in the school. The pattern set we do is the one you are discussing in your book. Chon-Ji, Dan-gun, etc. Does that answer your question?



Not really Im afraid. For example, we wear ITF doboks, practice the Ch'ang Hon system thats commonly (though incorrectly) termed ITF TKD, but arnt part of any of the ITFs any more! So you can do ITF TKD, practice Chon-ji etc, but not be part of the ITF!

Quote:

I learn something new every class. As I mentioned before, locks and take downs are only taught to older advanced students, so I've only just begun (within the last 6 months or so) being introduced to these techniques. There are only so many techniques a person can learn at one time before their brain cramps



True.

Quote:

I agree that the order makes sense for clarity, I was just suggesting, numbering the pictures, like you do when you showed the whole pattern. That way, no matter which way you had them, it would be obvious which picture went first.



Thats a great idea.. nice, thanks.

Quote:

ok, how about a head band?



LOL, perhaps.. though may look a little on the naff side! But you have given me an idea!

Quote:

Well, my first thought, besides the one in the encylopedia, stemmed from the fact that I wasn't doing any counter balance between the first and second move, when I first learned the pattern, So it looked an awful lot like you were snapping someones neck. Once you throw in the counter balance though, it doesn't make as much sense. Shrug. Ramblings of an over-tired insomnia induced mind.

Laura



Actually, its not to far off one of my alternatives and shows your thinking well.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271422 - 08/22/06 06:00 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Doc]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

IMP this book should be given to all new ITF black belts along with their degree certificate.




Another top idea

Thnaks for your nice comments Doc and glad the postal service did its job well.

Thnaks as well to HMFC for the props too.


Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271423 - 08/23/06 04:42 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: tkd_high_green]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Since the next book isn't available yet, I am curious to know what you feel the applications are for the first two moves of Chung-Mu.



I use the opening move like this...
http://web.mac.com/paul.oleary/iWeb/Site/Podcast/4692CE03-EE90-11DA-8BF7-000D934775F6.html
In which the lead hand hits a point on the neck while the back hand covers a cross punch attack.

The next move can lead into the neck break you mentioned!! I also do that type of neck break from the opening moves of Pyung-Ahn Ee Dan (the Korean word for Heian/Pinan which is basically Won Hyo with some small differences)

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#271424 - 08/24/06 11:16 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Stuart,
Congrats on the book.I hope it does well for you and the TKD community.

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#271425 - 08/24/06 11:23 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: oldman]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Stuart,
Congrats on the book.I hope it does well for you and the TKD community.




Many thanks.

Stuart

Ps. your cartoons are excellant btw
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271426 - 11/12/06 11:11 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
An interview appears in next months TKD&KMA magazine, about the book.

The magazine version has been edited , so you can read the full version online if you wish.

The link is: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/Press/Press_2006.html

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271427 - 12/26/06 05:31 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
sgtZipper Offline
Member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 25
Loc: the Netherlands
I found this page via google and remembered I had an account here
So I ordered this book, it will take 5 to 7 days to arrive... but I'm already wondering, when is volume 2 coming out and what will it feature? Will it feature the rest of the tuls or less/more? Thanks in advance

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#271428 - 06/23/07 01:24 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
For those that are interested Ive just released a FREE PDF download with extracts from the book.

The link is: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/downloadables/HaeSul/Taekwondo_Haesul_Preview.pdf

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271429 - 06/23/07 09:56 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

For example, we wear ITF doboks, practice the Ch'ang Hon system thats commonly (though incorrectly) termed ITF TKD, but arnt part of any of the ITFs any more! So you can do ITF TKD, practice Chon-ji etc, but not be part of the ITF!




hi stuart,

i know that this is an old thread, but i was just re-reading this comment and i'd like to put a question to you on it. so that i can put this to rest in my mind.

if as you say that you are not part of any versions of the itf. then why do you wear the crest on your suits?

is this not a bit misleading to readers of your material?


Edited by Paulol (06/23/07 09:58 PM)

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#271430 - 06/23/07 11:05 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:



if as you say that you are not part of any versions of the itf. then why do you wear the crest on your suits?



I am no longer part of the ITF or ITf based group, though I was. We wear standard ITF doboks (and have done since I started the Academy) for a number of reasons.

1. I train & teach the Ch'ang Hon system, most commonly refered to as ITF - hence it denotes what we do

2. I 'hang' with other clubs that are ITF or ex-ITF and wear similar doboks ie. at the time I didnt want my students to stand out different from others they would train with

3. We see it as a form of respect for the founder of the system we practice

4. When I started getting doboks for my students they were hard to come by unless you were in a big org and you had to get suits specially made that were 'dobok' type (ie. the same but without the crest embroidered - this was not cost effective.


Quote:

is this not a bit misleading to readers of your material?



Going back to No.1 - as many see the Ch'ang hon system as ITF, and that is the system I teach and practice.. then no, I dont feel its misleading - as what I do is exactly the same as someone who is a member of any of the ITF Orgs does... technical/move wise!

Besides which, even if I did WTF the book is based on the Ch'ang Hon/ITF patterns.. so it makes sense to wear the right uniform!

Why does this play on your mind anyway?

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271431 - 06/24/07 11:45 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Quote:



if as you say that you are not part of any versions of the itf. then why do you wear the crest on your suits?



I am no longer part of the ITF or ITf based group, though I was. We wear standard ITF doboks (and have done since I started the Academy) for a number of reasons.

1. I train & teach the Ch'ang Hon system, most commonly refered to as ITF - hence it denotes what we do



no it does not. i also was trained in the chang hon style. but it was not the itf no matter how much we followed it's history and syllabus, because we not members or trained with itf instructors.
Quote:


2. I 'hang' with other clubs that are ITF or ex-ITF and wear similar doboks ie. at the time I didnt want my students to stand out different from others they would train with



why would it be a problem that your students would different to students in the itf? they are not, so there is no good sense to wear a patch that says they are.
Quote:


3. We see it as a form of respect for the founder of the system we practice



if the founder knew you were wearing his assoications crest without being paying members then i think he would not have approved?
Quote:


4. When I started getting doboks for my students they were hard to come by unless you were in a big org and you had to get suits specially made that were 'dobok' type (ie. the same but without the crest embroidered - this was not cost effective.



there are many avenues to get doboks. putting your own crest over the itf one would be a simple way of keeping things in line?

Quote:

Quote:

is this not a bit misleading to readers of your material?



Going back to No.1 - as many see the Ch'ang hon system as ITF, and that is the system I teach and practice.. then no, I dont feel its misleading - as what I do is exactly the same as someone who is a member of any of the ITF Orgs does... technical/move wise!



are you going to there instructor courses? i'm sure you can pick up stuff from your friends in the itf. but as your club is not joined with them you are in that group they class as "cowboys" as much as i am
Quote:


Besides which, even if I did WTF the book is based on the Ch'ang Hon/ITF patterns.. so it makes sense to wear the right uniform!



again you are going towards misleading ground here. it would make sense to wear the itf style uniform. not the crest also as people looking at the cover and pics would get the impression that you are an offical itf (whichever one) member. which you are not, and that this information is from "one of there own" so to speak!

Quote:


Why does this play on your mind anyway?

Stuart



because i see it as being a mis-representation of what you are doing.

i myself have had to drop the taekwon-do part of my clubs name as it was turning off adults from training with us because they were putting us into that tkd box which they had come across at some point or had a passing knowledge of it being a bit like karate and they were looking for something more self defence driven which is what we are doing through our work with the adk.

also the sub title ""real" applciations to the itf patterns" again make it look like these applications are from an offical itf source.

sorry for being such a snot here stuart. but i do feel that we as instructors have to be honest with both our students in the dojo and the public when we are producing information and instruction.

i do deeply respect you for getting a book like this out to counter ballance so many years of neglect.

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#271432 - 06/24/07 12:30 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

if the founder knew you were wearing his assoications crest without being paying members then i think he would not have approved?




Well I think he would not have minded much at all. In fact, GM JC Kim designed the patch/crest, along with Ambassador Choi back in 1965/6. It should be noted that it has remained in public domain, free of use, since that time, till some recent unkind lawsuits. I for one, see no problem with its use, as that was what it was intended for. Certainly it helps what the Founder tried to do.
JMHO

edited to fix quote


Edited by MattJ (06/24/07 03:34 PM)

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#271433 - 06/24/07 01:59 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Well I think he would not have minded much at all. In fact, GM JC Kim designed the patch/crest, along with Ambassador Choi back in 1965/6. It should be noted that it has remained in public domain, free of use, since that time, till some recent unkind lawsuits. I for one, see no problem with its use, as that was what it was intended for. Certainly it helps what the Founder tried to do.
JMHO




Exactly.. thank you!

Anyway Paulo,

Quote:

why would it be a problem that your students would different to students in the itf? They are not, so there is no good sense to wear a patch that says they are.



Not neccesarily ITF.. I just wanted a standard white dobok in the style I was use to.. the patch was already on it, so it wasnt an option to not have it on. Besides which, when I set up the club I hadnt decided if I was to continue down the ITF road with another group.. so it made sense to cover my bases rather than have to make studnents change doboks later down the road.


Quote:

if the founder knew you were wearing his assoications crest without being paying members then I think he would not have approved?



As ITFunity pointed out - he never actually owned the crest and it was given by the designer for anyone to use!

Quote:

there are many avenues to get doboks. putting your own crest over the itf one would be a simple way of keeping things in line?



There are now, there wernt then. it was a) WTF uniform b) Karate Gi or c) get a funky coloured uniform made up - none appealed to me. In fact if I recall in 1999 only one place outside of an organisation made doboks like I was use to.

Quote:

are you going to there instructor courses? i'm sure you can pick up stuff from your friends in the itf. but as your club is not joined with them you are in that group they class as "cowboys" as much as i am



I dont really care what people class me as, I know what I do, others know what I do, my obligation is to my students.. the only ones who would say things like that are the 'cultish' idiots that are the people that stop all TKD'ers unifying and getting along. And yes, I can go to the instructors courses if I want, I have many ties with people still actively part of the ITF (including many high grades). I also teach to both ITF and non-ITF groups - all without issue about the uniform I wear - only you seem yo have an issue for some reason.

Quote:

again you are going towards misleading ground here. it would make sense to wear the itf style uniform. not the crest



The ITF unifrom includes the crest - the dobok, crest, tree etc are the uniform .

Quote:

also as people looking at the cover and pics would get the impression that you are an offical itf (whichever one) member.



There is no official ITF anymore! Well I guess technically there is, but 2 out of the 3 ITF's arnt part of it - do you say the same to them?

Quote:

because i see it as being a mis-representation of what you are doing.



Well if I wanted to be pedantic I could say the same for you!

Quote:

I myself have had to drop the taekwon-do part of my clubs name as it was turning off adults



Isnt that more misleading - acting like you dont teach TKD to get them in the door, when in fact you do!!

Or perhaps more misleading is wearing Gi's which are associated with karate system, when in fact you teach TKD!! I dont care, but obviously you do?


Quote:

also the sub title ""real" applciations to the itf patterns" again make it look like these applications are from an offical itf source.



Maybe to you they do.. as I dont really care about the politics it serves a simple frame of reference to the book searcher/viewer. Though it is indeed incorrect, many know the system as ITF and use that to search rather than Ch'ang Hon - thats a fact of life.

Quote:

sorry for being such a snot here stuart. but i do feel that we as instructors have to be honest with both our students in the dojo and the public when we are producing information and instruction.



Well, perhaps people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones! Like I said, its just as easy to twist bits about you if I were so inclined. Theres nothing dishonest about what I do. My lines follow up from ITF roots, yours from AIMAA I believe, I respect my roots, no more, no less.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271434 - 06/24/07 02:12 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

i do deeply respect you for getting a book like this out to counter ballance so many years of neglect.




Really! Well you have a funny way of showing it. I guess our opinions on how you treat someone you respect are as different as our opinions on the doboks! Apart from the fact that I wouldnt even be bothered about such an issue in the first place, I certainly wouldnt bawl someone out on a public forum for such a pathetic issue, doubly so if I respected them!

You know this reminds me of a situation that happened when I left my former org.. through a 3rd party I was sent a message saying if I was teaching and wasnt part of them anymore I shouldnt be wearing their dobok. So I sent a message back saying simply "why not, you made me pay for it!". Not that I wanted to be seen as representing them, more from my point of view than theres. But that was pathetic back then and this is just as pathetic now.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271435 - 06/24/07 04:01 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Quote:

Well I think he would not have minded much at all. In fact, GM JC Kim designed the patch/crest, along with Ambassador Choi back in 1965/6. It should be noted that it has remained in public domain, free of use, since that time, till some recent unkind lawsuits. I for one, see no problem with its use, as that was what it was intended for. Certainly it helps what the Founder tried to do.
JMHO




Exactly.. thank you!



so a person who runs a mc donalds and changes to kfc while keeping the mc donalds uniform is ok? silly way of looking at it but you may see where i'm soming from.

i started training in tkd 20 years ago and have seen and heard how things go with the itf (the old single one, which i'm sure is not to far off how any of the 3 act now) so please don't try to tell me that officals would not have a problem with this!!
Quote:


Anyway Paulo,

Quote:

why would it be a problem that your students would different to students in the itf? They are not, so there is no good sense to wear a patch that says they are.



Not neccesarily ITF.. I just wanted a standard white dobok in the style I was use to.. the patch was already on it, so it wasnt an option to not have it on. Besides which, when I set up the club I hadnt decided if I was to continue down the ITF road with another group.. so it made sense to cover my bases rather than have to make studnents change doboks later down the road.


Quote:

if the founder knew you were wearing his assoications crest without being paying members then I think he would not have approved?



As ITFunity pointed out - he never actually owned the crest and it was given by the designer for anyone to use!

Quote:

there are many avenues to get doboks. putting your own crest over the itf one would be a simple way of keeping things in line?



There are now, there wernt then. it was a) WTF uniform b) Karate Gi or c) get a funky coloured uniform made up - none appealed to me. In fact if I recall in 1999 only one place outside of an organisation made doboks like I was use to.


my association used to have a similar dobok to the itf one and this was back in 94 or 95. but i take your point about not being able to find one that suited your needs.
Quote:


Quote:

are you going to there instructor courses? i'm sure you can pick up stuff from your friends in the itf. but as your club is not joined with them you are in that group they class as "cowboys" as much as i am



I dont really care what people class me as, I know what I do, others know what I do, my obligation is to my students.. the only ones who would say things like that are the 'cultish' idiots that are the people that stop all TKD'ers unifying and getting along. And yes, I can go to the instructors courses if I want, I have many ties with people still actively part of the ITF (including many high grades). I also teach to both ITF and non-ITF groups - all without issue about the uniform I wear - only you seem yo have an issue for some reason.


i only have an issue with the wearing of a patch of a federation that you are not a member of, which may cause confusion.
Quote:


Quote:

again you are going towards misleading ground here. it would make sense to wear the itf style uniform. not the crest



The ITF unifrom includes the crest - the dobok, crest, tree etc are the uniform .


as i said stuart a crest can be covered over with another one?
Quote:


Quote:

also as people looking at the cover and pics would get the impression that you are an offical itf (whichever one) member.



There is no official ITF anymore! Well I guess technically there is, but 2 out of the 3 ITF's arnt part of it - do you say the same to them?
Quote:

well they have some claim to be the itf in some form or another. all claiming to be the real or official one. so i guess that gives them the right to wear the official uniform of that federation. also lets remember that this suit/crest is the uniform of the federation and not of the style or set of forms.
Quote:


Quote:

because i see it as being a mis-representation of what you are doing.



Well if I wanted to be pedantic I could say the same for you!

Quote:

I myself have had to drop the taekwon-do part of my clubs name as it was turning off adults



Isnt that more misleading - acting like you dont teach TKD to get them in the door, when in fact you do!!

Or perhaps more misleading is wearing Gi's which are associated with karate system, when in fact you teach TKD!! I dont care, but obviously you do?



when i started tkd we all were wearing karate gi's! when tkd and it's various early forms started they all were wearing karate gi's. i dropped the tkd term in my school name because i don't really teach tkd anymore. i've not taught a chang hon form in nearly 3 years now. following the path of my current instructor i'm now teaching forms of heian and naihanchi katas as were taught to him in tkd. they were wearing cross over gi's then so on that matter there is no issue with my group wearing a cross over gi? i could still keep the tkd term because i still have as much to do with that early form now as ever. we have left it now because it does not reflect what we do and so we were not drawing people in as there are many other long established tkd clubs in the area. we are training in cross-style martial arts and looks more like a ju jitsu class than karate or tkd. so no stuart! we are not misleading the public by dropping the tkd out of our name, in fact we were misleading them more before this!

Quote:


Quote:

also the sub title ""real" applciations to the itf patterns" again make it look like these applications are from an offical itf source.



Maybe to you they do.. as I dont really care about the politics it serves a simple frame of reference to the book searcher/viewer. Though it is indeed incorrect, many know the system as ITF and use that to search rather than Ch'ang Hon - thats a fact of life.



indeed they do! but this is why the itf has pushed out the term chang hon so much. so as to give people the correct term to call the pattern set that is used in the itf.




Quote:

sorry for being such a snot here stuart. but i do feel that we as instructors have to be honest with both our students in the dojo and the public when we are producing information and instruction.



Well, perhaps people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones! Like I said, its just as easy to twist bits about you if I were so inclined. Theres nothing dishonest about what I do. My lines follow up from ITF roots, yours from AIMAA I believe, I respect my roots, no more, no less.

Stuart





stuart my bio on the club website has everything laid out about me. i don't see where you could twist information about me? but then i'm not twisting information about you here. i'm just talking about the wearing of a federation's patch on an instruction book that is not one you are joined with in any way.

i had hoped that you were going to tell that this was an over sight. but if you really don't think that there is a problem doing something like this then thats ok then.

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#271436 - 06/24/07 04:07 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Quote:

i do deeply respect you for getting a book like this out to counter ballance so many years of neglect.




Really! Well you have a funny way of showing it. I guess our opinions on how you treat someone you respect are as different as our opinions on the doboks! Apart from the fact that I wouldnt even be bothered about such an issue in the first place, I certainly wouldnt bawl someone out on a public forum for such a pathetic issue, doubly so if I respected them!

You know this reminds me of a situation that happened when I left my former org.. through a 3rd party I was sent a message saying if I was teaching and wasnt part of them anymore I shouldnt be wearing their dobok. So I sent a message back saying simply "why not, you made me pay for it!". Not that I wanted to be seen as representing them, more from my point of view than theres. But that was pathetic back then and this is just as pathetic now.

Stuart



i say it straight and sometimes [censored] even my close friends and family.

i've sent emails to you a few times about aspects of my OP but you have not replied. i've asked my question and you have replied now so thats fine.

thank you for your time.

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#271437 - 06/24/07 05:40 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I wonder if you would have the same problem with someone who is not a member of the WTF, wearing a WTF dobok? Many of these pull overs come with either the WTF or Kukkiwon logos on them as well. In fact, the overwhelming majority of students who call themselves WTF are not official card carrying members. Now WTF has less of a standard syllabus than the ITF does. In fact, many would say the WTF is just a sports organization. In any case, many do not follow everthing the Kukkiwon puts out with respect to a training syllabus. Would you find the same fault with those that are not members of the WTF hanging a Kukkiwon flag or WTF flag in their dojang? What about those who are not Korean, wearing a Korean flag on their dobok, or hanging it in their dojang? Many of them do not issue WTF certificates, nor are their instructors certified by those groups. Do you find a problem with that?

In the case of the ITF, it is common for people to also refer to it as a style, as it is drastically different than the WTF & it has a very standard syllabus, that adherence to was demanded by the founder. Since he was such a strong personality, many referred to his teachings as the ITF way. For many, the ITF is the same as General Choi. The ITF also has one standard set of patterns. So many that do these patterns refer to themselves as ITF. IMHO it is more proper to call the system not the ITF, but Chang Hon. However, I do not want anyone to think that what I feel should be the standard. Students of the Korean striking art, know as TKD, are pretty much free to refer to what they do, the way they want. When you look at the big picture, many TKD schools are all over the place. So I don't see the big deal about the use of a patch on a dobok. I for one, like the pull over & also like the ITF dobok that is joined in the middle, without the Karate Gi tie strings, but rather velcro or a zipper. In fact, the ITF-V & ITF-NK have their official DoBoks, made by Top Ten, SaSung & 1 other company that I am drawing a blank on. So neither of those would have a problem with Mr. Anslow's use of the dobok he uses, as it is not their official dobok. Much ado about nuttin.

I have been a proud member of the ITF for more years than I care to remember. I would think that us in the ITF, a minority in the TKD world, would & do find comfort in others wearing our kind of dobok. It sure beats them wearing the other sides'! LOL

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#271438 - 06/24/07 06:11 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

so please don't try to tell me that officals would not have a problem with this!!




He didnt, he told you that the man who designed the logo wanted it to remain in the public domain and free to use by anyone.

Quote:

i only have an issue with the wearing of a patch of a federation that you are not a member of, which may cause confusion.



As I said, IFT style doboks were not available then.. I saw no reason to change or cover the patch them either. Though I dont follow or want to be part of the ITF politics, I learnt and teach the system of the man who founded it and saw it as a form of respect.

Quote:

as i said stuart a crest can be covered over with another one?



And look stupid and feel uncomfortable! Not to mention unprofessional.

Quote:

well they have some claim to be the itf in some form or another. all claiming to be the real or official one. so i guess that gives them the right to wear the official uniform of that federation. also lets remember that this suit/crest is the uniform of the federation and not of the style or set of forms.




Depends on how you feel the ITF should of continued! If I call my club the "ITF" would that mean its okay now?


Quote:

when i started tkd we all were wearing karate gi's! when tkd and it's various early forms started they all were wearing karate gi's. i dropped the tkd term in my school name because i don't really teach tkd anymore. i've not taught a chang hon form in nearly 3 years now. following the path of my current instructor i'm now teaching forms of heian and naihanchi katas as were taught to him in tkd. they were wearing cross over gi's then so on that matter there is no issue with my group wearing a cross over gi?



So your saying because when the Chung Do Kwan started they wore gi's, and Sensei Clark comes down that lineage then its okay for you to wear them? But Ricks not part of the Chung Do kwan anymore and AFAIK you arnt either and have never been... but you still reason that its okay for you but not okay for me? Perhaps I wear the uniform of the ITF when they first introduced the newer style doboks, rather than the present orgs.. similar in reasoning to you in that its part of my heritage!

Quote:

i could still keep the tkd term because i still have as much to do with that early form now as ever.



But arnt your roots Oh Do Kwan rather than Chung Do Kwan? Did you learn them directly through a Chung Do Kwan school or did Rick teach you them or are they self taught?

Quote:

we have left it now because it does not reflect what we do and so we were not drawing people in as there are many other long established tkd clubs in the area. we are training in cross-style martial arts and looks more like a ju jitsu class than karate or tkd. so no stuart!



Well if what you now teach is based largely on Rick Clarks AoDenkou Jitsu.. shouldnt your school hold that name too so its more descriptive of what you do?

Quote:

we are not misleading the public by dropping the tkd out of our name, in fact we were misleading them more before this!



Is this not the logo from your web site then?

Seems to have the name "Taekwon-do" still in it?


Quote:

indeed they do! but this is why the itf has pushed out the term chang hon so much. so as to give people the correct term to call the pattern set that is used in the itf.



Im not sure if Ive read this right, but many ITF students do not know the term 'Ch'ang Hon'!

Quote:

stuart my bio on the club website has everything laid out about me. i don't see where you could twist information about me?



As does mine and the book, including my linage! Perhaps "twist" was the wrong term.. maybe "questionable" would ahve been better, for example many pages (including your bio) mentions TKD despite you saying that it doesnt, and now you claim you dont teach TKD at all - but wasnt TKD the system you learnt!! This could be twisted or seen as questionable or even if not, darn right confusing to most!

Quote:

but then i'm not twisting information about you here. i'm just talking about the wearing of a federation's patch on an instruction book that is not one you are joined with in any way.



If it makes you feel better, think of it as a costume whilst I acted out the patterns for the book. As the patterns are the ones taught in the ITF, the sub-title is spot on also!

Quote:

i had hoped that you were going to tell that this was an over sight.



Why?

Quote:

but if you really don't think that there is a problem doing something like this then thats ok then.



I dont and neither does anyone else except you it seems!

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271439 - 06/24/07 06:16 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

i say it straight and sometimes [censored] even my close friends and family.



theres a big difference between talking straight to your friends and "bawling" someone out on a public forum! Especially when you mention words like dishonesty and misleading people etc.

Quote:

i've sent emails to you a few times about aspects of my OP but you have not replied.



Funny how Ive never received them! and I have had a few emails from you about your stuff (which I like btw) so I know they get there!!

Quote:

i've asked my question and you have replied now so thats fine.



Ah! But you didnt just ask a question.. you virtually made me out to be a charlaton because of the dobok I wear! If I taught in the nude Id still be teaching the same stuff, clothes are clothes.. I train in them, sweat in them, wash them and wear them again - the uniform doesnt make me what or who I am, or give me any knowledge etc. - thats why I dont understand why its such a big deal to you and is a weight on your mind! If you were some uppity ITF guy then Id laugh because Id get it.. but from you.. it mystifies me!

Stuart

Ps. Quote from your website: The sprit of JungShin TKD is to be open to new avenues and experiences, and not to close the door on the past.


Edited by StuartA (06/24/07 06:19 PM)

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#271440 - 06/25/07 08:18 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:


Quote:

i only have an issue with the wearing of a patch of a federation that you are not a member of, which may cause confusion.



As I said, IFT style doboks were not available then.. I saw no reason to change or cover the patch them either. Though I dont follow or want to be part of the ITF politics, I learnt and teach the system of the man who founded it and saw it as a form of respect.

Quote:

as i said stuart a crest can be covered over with another one?



And look stupid and feel uncomfortable! Not to mention unprofessional.




well you insist on wearing that style of suit, i'm sure that they can be made for you by a company for you now? but thats besides the point now.

Quote:


Quote:

well they have some claim to be the itf in some form or another. all claiming to be the real or official one. so i guess that gives them the right to wear the official uniform of that federation. also lets remember that this suit/crest is the uniform of the federation and not of the style or set of forms.




Depends on how you feel the ITF should of continued! If I call my club the "ITF" would that mean its okay now?




i would guess that you not would not be able to do that unless you were joined in some way with one of the branches. but then if you are so into it then why not??

Quote:


Quote:

when i started tkd we all were wearing karate gi's! when tkd and it's various early forms started they all were wearing karate gi's. i dropped the tkd term in my school name because i don't really teach tkd anymore. i've not taught a chang hon form in nearly 3 years now. following the path of my current instructor i'm now teaching forms of heian and naihanchi katas as were taught to him in tkd. they were wearing cross over gi's then so on that matter there is no issue with my group wearing a cross over gi?



So your saying because when the Chung Do Kwan started they wore gi's, and Sensei Clark comes down that lineage then its okay for you to wear them? But Ricks not part of the Chung Do kwan anymore and AFAIK you arnt either and have never been... but you still reason that its okay for you but not okay for me? Perhaps I wear the uniform of the ITF when they first introduced the newer style doboks, rather than the present orgs.. similar in reasoning to you in that its part of my heritage!




again, i have no problem with what ever gi/dobok you want to wear. btw, all tkd is linked to the chung do kwan as well as the oh do kwan. also to shotokan so weather or not we were training there is not the point.

Quote:


Quote:

i could still keep the tkd term because i still have as much to do with that early form now as ever.



But arnt your roots Oh Do Kwan rather than Chung Do Kwan? Did you learn them directly through a Chung Do Kwan school or did Rick teach you them or are they self taught?




a bit of both due to the fact that we are not together on a one to one or even class basis that much in the year. i came through an aimaa group first then flirted with the itf and settled with the uti under a dutch master who was the first itf european black belt. now with prof clark, i have changed to ao denkou jitsu through my tkd base. but have move onto another step in my training.

Quote:


Quote:

we have left it now because it does not reflect what we do and so we were not drawing people in as there are many other long established tkd clubs in the area. we are training in cross-style martial arts and looks more like a ju jitsu class than karate or tkd. so no stuart!



Well if what you now teach is based largely on Rick Clarks AoDenkou Jitsu.. shouldnt your school hold that name too so its more descriptive of what you do?
Quote:



we will have it on the new site and promotion posters. i takes time to build up a relationship with an instructor by distance and so we have gotten to that stage now.

Quote:


Quote:

we are not misleading the public by dropping the tkd out of our name, in fact we were misleading them more before this!



Is this not the logo from your web site then?

Seems to have the name "Taekwon-do" still in it?





we are in the middle of changing our logo and i can't access my online files to change the pics on there at the moment. it will be changed in time but we have changed the text on much of the site with more to do.

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#271441 - 06/25/07 08:55 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:


well you insist on wearing that style of suit, i'm sure that they can be made for you by a company for you now? but thats besides the point now.



Im sure they can these days, but Im not about to tell all my studnets they need to pay for a new uniform cos Ive decided to change them. Its just how it is, ITF badge or not Im not that bothered about really, but when it comes to my students I dont want to do something like that - so thats how we started and thats how we stay and everybodies happy - cept' you!

Quote:

i would guess that you not would not be able to do that unless you were joined in some way with one of the branches. but then if you are so into it then why not??



Thats the point, I am in to the art/style/system, but their philosophies dont align with how I feel about martial arts, so I keep on the sidelines.

Quote:

again, i have no problem with what ever gi/dobok you want to wear.



Funny!! Your post says different!!!

Quote:

btw, all tkd is linked to the chung do kwan as well as the oh do kwan. also to shotokan so weather or not we were training there is not the point.



Well it is, as far as this post goes, as your saying I shouldnt be wearing an ITF dobok because Im not part of the ITF, so I counter with you shouldnt portray yourself in a Chung Do kwan dobok as you`ve never trained nor graded under the Chung Do kwan - like I said IF I had an issue, which I dont, I could twist things as well to cause an issue. Besides, I dont think the original Gi's were in blue either - many may still think your part of AIMMA.. which your not!!! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?

Quote:

a bit of both due to the fact that we are not together



How can it be both!! Ive trained with Karate, Kung Fu, hapkido guys etc.. but dont claim they are in my roots! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?


Quote:

we will have it on the new site and promotion posters. i takes time to build up a relationship with an instructor by distance and so we have gotten to that stage now.



And that now makes you Chung Do kwan!!!

Quote:

we are in the middle of changing our logo and i can't access my online files to change the pics on there at the moment.



Well then perhaps you shouldnt state that you no longer state things that arnt correct! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?

Quote:

it will be changed in time but we have changed the text on much of the site with more to do.


Plenty of the text still states you do and teach TKD still!

Like I said, anyone can pick holes in things or split hairs about stuff (as I have done above).. thats easy. The question is why someone would want too!

For the record, I have no issues with what you do, what you teach, how you train etc. and only point these things out to show how easy it can be, and how silly it is at the same time for guys batting for the same team!

Stuart

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271442 - 06/25/07 01:22 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Quote:


well you insist on wearing that style of suit, i'm sure that they can be made for you by a company for you now? but thats besides the point now.



Im sure they can these days, but Im not about to tell all my studnets they need to pay for a new uniform cos Ive decided to change them. Its just how it is, ITF badge or not Im not that bothered about really, but when it comes to my students I dont want to do something like that - so thats how we started and thats how we stay and everybodies happy - cept' you!

Quote:

again, i have no problem with what ever gi/dobok you want to wear.



Funny!! Your post says different!!!




no i does not! i'm only talking about the use of the crest.

Quote:

btw, all tkd is linked to the chung do kwan as well as the oh do kwan. also to shotokan so weather or not we were training there is not the point.



Well it is, as far as this post goes, as your saying I shouldnt be wearing an ITF dobok because Im not part of the ITF, so I counter with you shouldnt portray yourself in a Chung Do kwan dobok as you`ve never trained nor graded under the Chung Do kwan - like I said IF I had an issue, which I dont, I could twist things as well to cause an issue. Besides, I dont think the original Gi's were in blue either - many may still think your part of AIMMA.. which your not!!! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?




again stuart i do not have an issue with your suit!!

my suits are my own choice for the jungshin mu do kwan school and are based on the um yang. aimaa do not have students wear red suits at colour belt! so my suit has nothing to with them really. also our suit is 14 oz so that it can stand up to the pulling and draging we do in class.

Quote:


Quote:

a bit of both due to the fact that we are not together



How can it be both!! Ive trained with Karate, Kung Fu, hapkido guys etc.. but dont claim they are in my roots! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?




i trained in kung fu for 4 years, so it is quite a big part of my martial arts history. i trained in hapkido for a year, and a half and still train with these guys when i can. but it more an exchange of ideas now than the one way street it used be 10 years ago. so yes these are big parts of my history. but i would not wear a crest belong to any of the schools i was with as i am not a joined member now.

Quote:


Quote:

we will have it on the new site and promotion posters. i takes time to build up a relationship with an instructor by distance and so we have gotten to that stage now.



And that now makes you Chung Do kwan!!!




no? we are respecting the chung do kwan in our training. we train much more like ju jitsu with ao denkou jitsu.

Quote:


Quote:

we are in the middle of changing our logo and i can't access my online files to change the pics on there at the moment.



Well then perhaps you shouldnt state that you no longer state things that arnt correct! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?
Quote:



i have outlined that we are changing the public information. as there is a lot to change i do not have the time to do it all at once. but it is being done. in anycase i could still use the tkd term if i wanted and take the chance of causing confusion. but have changed for the reasons mentioned before.

Quote:

Like I said, anyone can pick holes in things or split hairs about stuff (as I have done above).. thats easy. The question is why someone would want too!




my OP was no really meant to be as attacking as it may have seemed and it was really just a question of the use of a crest of a federation that you are not belong to and it's possible repercussions.

Quote:


For the record, I have no issues with what you do, what you teach, how you train etc.




i never said that i had a problem with your work or even your feckin' suit! none of that was in question

Quote:


and how silly it is at the same time for guys batting for the same team!





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#271443 - 06/25/07 01:58 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Guys, perhaps we can take the fashion hand-bag swinging to it's own seperate thread, and get this one back on topic. Please?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#271444 - 06/25/07 04:51 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: Paulol]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
[quote=] Paulo no i does not! i'm only talking about the use of the crest.



No.. you said by wearing it I was misleading people. then in others posts you said about being dishonest and mis-representation - which I am none of and do none of also!

Quote:

MattJ Guys, perhaps we can take the fashion hand-bag swinging to it's own seperate thread, and get this one back on topic. Please?



Yes, yes.. quite right. Sorry if I got a bit uppity, but when words like that are used about me I feel I cant just let it lie!

Anyway, apart form ITFunity's last post that may warrent a response.. the original point was:

1. Book
2. free Downland of said book - http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/downloadables/HaeSul/Taekwondo_Haesul_Preview.pdf

Thanks Matt.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271445 - 06/26/07 07:19 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: matxtx]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I thought some might be interested to know there is a book:

Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications to The ITF Patterns” by Stuart Anslow.

:that has either just come out or is comming out very soon.

I dont know too much about it yet though it seems interesting.
If any one has any more information on it or even has it,please post.




Hi
The patterns seem to contain techniques that are in shotokan kata? I havent seen the book but would like to discuss the techniques that are in the book if they can be described.
Jude

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#271446 - 07/04/07 09:12 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: jude33]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:


Hi
The patterns seem to contain techniques that are in shotokan kata? I havent seen the book but would like to discuss the techniques that are in the book if they can be described.
Jude




The books over 350 pages so may be an idea to get hold of a copy first as they will make discussions a lot easier. Also, a seperate thread on the subject may be appropriate.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271447 - 02/23/08 07:50 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Just updated the PDF preview.. with 2 new articles & the recent DVD reviews in Combat (Updated to March 2008). Same download link a before.

http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/HaeSul/HaeSul.html

Feel free to pass around.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271448 - 02/25/08 03:29 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: jude33]
Paulol Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 112
Quote:

Quote:

I thought some might be interested to know there is a book:

Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications to The ITF Patterns” by Stuart Anslow.

:that has either just come out or is comming out very soon.

I dont know too much about it yet though it seems interesting.
If any one has any more information on it or even has it,please post.




Hi
The patterns seem to contain techniques that are in shotokan kata? I havent seen the book but would like to discuss the techniques that are in the book if they can be described.
Jude




taekwon-do patterns are based on karate kata with changes made for various reasons. i teach applications, pressure points and self defence to a few karate clubs and groups. more so than TKD ones. who don't seem to be able to find the time to host a seminar with me or host prof clark.

i also have taught a ju jutsu group and have been invited to teach an aikido club. it's really nice to be able to cross over styles like that.

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#271449 - 05/01/08 06:33 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
For those who are still undecided on a certain book, a final update has been added to the preview PDF... be warned it a 16MB download

Download it here: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/downloadables/HaeSul/Taekwondo_Haesul_Preview.pdf

Enjoy,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271450 - 05/04/08 12:48 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Check this out. Interesting. Some stances and forms from TKD which I can now look at with new eyes.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLe0V6U3fU&feature=related
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#271451 - 05/04/08 01:01 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#271452 - 05/04/08 02:55 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: trevek]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Duh! I didn't want to put those links here. I wanted to put them on genral. Could Mod move them, please?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#271453 - 05/04/08 04:02 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Na.. all goods Trevek.. leave em.

Thanks for postig them.. you must have way too much time on your hands :-)

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271454 - 05/04/08 04:57 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
the one wher he traps the other guy's leg with a guburyo sogi is well cool.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#271455 - 04/03/09 03:44 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: trevek]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Just a quick update. The hardback version of Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul is now available worldwide via not only Amazon UK and US, but also Amazon Canada, Germany, France, Japan & China.



Stuart
Ps. hope thats okay to post as a lot have asked about it and it was delayed a little
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271456 - 04/03/09 05:44 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Hi Trev

Sorry for me demos like that are just to fancy to convince me of the applications. I would recommend you watch the Randy Couture series which came on right after the clip you suggested. I actually have that entire Couture series and its great stuff on pummeling and take downs. You wanna see some cool take down check it out.

I no longer like watching demos which say this, this, and this will end up here. That's great with a willing opponent. But with live training your opponent is fighting you all the way. So those clean "artful" movements which are a prelude to the take down, are just not gonna get the job down. Because every movement is being met with resistance.

Sorry Stuart we hijacked your thread. But I have gotten to see your book. I think its great and feel is should be standardized for all TKD schools which practice your forms. I only wish that when I had started my TKD training my instructor taught practical application directly from the patterns instead of having them as separate entities. It would have given me a better appreciation for the time and practice I put into them.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#271457 - 04/04/09 12:06 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: TeK9]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
No worries Tek.. different opinions spark debate and open eyes and minds, so alls good.

Just got a copy of the hardback edition today and its wicked :-)

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271458 - 04/06/09 11:08 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Just a quick update. The hardback version of Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul is now available worldwide via not only Amazon UK and US, but also Amazon Canada, Germany, France, Japan & China.



Stuart
Ps. hope thats okay to post as a lot have asked about it and it was delayed a little




Ordered mine last week and am awaiting delivery. I'm really looking forward to perusing it !

VDJ

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#271459 - 04/06/09 06:56 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Cool. Let me now what you think.

Regards,

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271460 - 04/10/09 12:02 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

Cool. Let me now what you think.

Regards,

Stuart




Received it yesterday and started reading it last night. I like what you have to say about alot of the ignorance out there (even with some instructors)regarding the applications contained within the patterns.I also found GM Young's resonse to your question regarding the "W" block interesting.I am very eager to get to the meat and potatoes (or as you said "the meat of the sandwich")in the book. I want to read the whole thing and not just skip into the pictures and explanations. The hard cover is very nice. I will continue to give you feed back as I get further into the book but probably thru the I.M. portion of the board.

VDJ

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#271461 - 04/11/09 07:57 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
What is a "W" Block?

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#271462 - 04/12/09 08:38 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: BulldogTKD]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

What is a "W" Block?





Watch the vid, I'm sure you will recognize it (some call it a mountain block).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=revsiIYyc-o

VDJ

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#271463 - 04/17/09 08:59 AM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Thanks! It took a few of the blocks before I figured it out. Very nice form.

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#271464 - 04/28/09 08:11 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: VDJ]
StuartA Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 443
Quote:

Received it yesterday and started reading it last night. I like what you have to say about alot of the ignorance out there (even with some instructors)regarding the applications contained within the patterns.I also found GM Young's resonse to your question regarding the "W" block interesting.I am very eager to get to the meat and potatoes (or as you said "the meat of the sandwich")in the book. I want to read the whole thing and not just skip into the pictures and explanations. The hard cover is very nice. I will continue to give you feed back as I get further into the book but probably thru the I.M. portion of the board.

VDJ



Cool.. email me direct if you want.

Stuart
_________________________
"Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul"

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#271465 - 04/28/09 11:22 PM Re: Chang Hon Real Applications Book [Re: StuartA]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674

Cool.. email me direct if you want.

Stuart





I have sent you a PM

VDJ

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