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#271026 - 07/12/06 03:50 PM would you ever turn a student away?
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
would you ever refuse (politely of course) to teach a prospective student?

lets say someone walks into your club and is interested in taking your classes. which one of these scenarios would you turn away:

1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

thanks, -E

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#271027 - 07/12/06 04:50 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

would you ever refuse (politely of course) to teach a prospective student?

lets say someone walks into your club and is interested in taking your classes. which one of these scenarios would you turn away:




1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

Done that in my AKK school, in addition to teaching a 6'10" 275 giant. A challenge, yes. Not impossible, though.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

Not a chance.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

If it's part of the school, then they should do it within reason.

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Don't see a problem except for the factor, LOL.

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

Hmm........skill? Ok. Kata? I don't think so.

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

HELL NO!

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

As long as they understand they will take a LONG time to get anywhere, I guess so.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.



9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

Nope. Join a gym.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

I don't see why not.

*gulp*

Having read my responses....wow. Maybe I am a McInstructor!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#271028 - 07/12/06 04:50 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
If I were to run a school, the only person I would turn away would be someone I felt was dangerous, such as a known child molestor.

If someone came to my school and said that they wouldn't participate in x y and z, then I would tell them that I didn't think the school was a good fit for them. Unless there is a health reason that prevents someone from doing something, I would expect the rules and curriculum to be followed.

If there was a conflict of interest such as the nasty divorce situation, I would have to make it judgement call based on the situation. If they don't bring it into the classroom then there isn't a problem, but if it becomes an issue, then I might have to ask the student to leave until the situation has been resolved.

The fact is, I would have other students to think about and if that person is a distraction or dangerous then its my responsibility to make sure I do something to provide a safe environment to train.

Laura

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#271029 - 07/12/06 06:45 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ed Morris wrote
Quote:

would you ever refuse (politely of course) to teach a prospective student?

lets say someone walks into your club and is interested in taking your classes. which one of these scenarios would you turn away:




Quote:


1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.




I would definitely KEEP that guy! If you donít have a massive heavyweight to train with, youíre missing some valuable learning experiences.


Quote:

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.




I wouldnít risk blood on my mats. Theyíd have to take them off or no dice.


Quote:


3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.




That would be fine by me! I donít do any of that myself.


Quote:

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).




Nope. No dice. Iím good with most things but thatís still a little freaky. If its THAT obvious, itís just going to be more of a distraction than anything else.


Quote:

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.




That would be weird, wouldnít it? Iíve not ever had that happen nor do I think I will. However if a person wants to pay me, itís their dime and their time. Iíll show them whatever they want.


Quote:

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.




Iíd gladly welcome him in to ďtrainĒ


Quote:

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.




No deal there. With limited space, the paying and committed students get any available spots.


Quote:

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.




Iíd welcome them in and ďforceĒ THEM to lead training, lol. Who cares who gets the credit as long as the training is good!


Quote:

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.




So long as they are committed, I donít care WHY they want to train.


Quote:

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.






Fine by me. Theyíre no threat to us and, we might learn something in the process.




-John

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#271030 - 07/12/06 10:16 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
roninofGa Offline
Member

Registered: 10/02/05
Posts: 57
#1 Keep.
#2 No. They must take off for liability and safety reasons.
#3 Explain that this may not be their cup of tea.
#4 keep
#5 Not during regular class. Maybe, just maybe in my spare time. As above stated. It's their dime.
#6 NOPE! Too risky to chance.
#7 No problem here.
#8 No problem
#9 keep. Maybe they may get to liking the art just by attending.
#10 Sure. Maybe they will go to the other school and tell their friends there what the are learning at my place and they come too.

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#271031 - 07/13/06 10:16 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
still wadowoman Offline
Improved beefier techno-prat

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 3420
Loc: Residence:UK- Heart:Md, USA
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

Yes but would take great care to make sure they did not kill themselves lol Seriously I have had a couple of seriously overweight students.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

No way. This could be dangerous to others as well as them. I have trained a girl with several facial piercings. She had no problem removing them for training

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

I would explain the dojo rules. Nobody has to comply but if they don't want to, they need a different dojo

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Absolutely irrelevant

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

Not sure, possibly if it did not interfere with my own students in any way

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

No way

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

Up to them but it would be made clear that progress would be slow

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

Cool - teach me too please

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

They can train but progress would be impeded. If they only want excercise this won't matter but I know many who joined for excercise and then got hooked on the art.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

Not a problem. I would ask them to discuss this with their existing instructor first out of courtesy. Sometimes my students ask about cross training. Most times I suggest other places, but occasionally there is a good reason to advice against it, ie a beginner that wants to train in two striking arts without a strong base in one. However, I only advise - it's their call.
_________________________
Anyone mind if I sit down?

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#271032 - 07/13/06 11:22 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: still wadowoman]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
The only person I have ever seen turned away from class was a man who had a criminal record and didn't declare it to the instructor. (Police check turned it up). He lasted 2 lessons.
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#271033 - 07/13/06 11:27 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Does anyone have so many students that they can 'afford' to turn them away? I look around and only see the teacher...where are these prospective students?

Top
#271034 - 07/13/06 11:48 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
GungFuTy Offline
Member

Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 88
Loc: UT
I kind of wanted to respond just to question 8. I hope thats ok

Last semester Paul (I hope he doesn't mind me telling this story ) Joined my class. Most of his family had been killed in fighting in Cambodia. He took up TKD for self defense. He eventually moved to the US and joined my class.

This guy was super dedicated to the arts. He practiced at least 2-3 hrs a day 7 days a week plus taught TKD plus attended my class.

Anyways, it was a great experiance being able to teach someone an art that simply was such a good martial artist.

Personally I think you would be crazy to turn down someone like that. It teaches you that you may know more than you think and it lets you learn from someone more experianced at the same time.



My respects to Paul, especially if he frequents this forum
_________________________
Maybe thats why I took up boxing. It's my response to men in white pajamas feeling each other's chi

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#271035 - 07/13/06 01:21 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'd be ok with most of them, although Mr Piercings would have it explained he'd not take part on sparring, only non-contact work, patterns etc (until he saw the light).

Mr Religious, I'd suggest he try somewhere else (for the sake of class discipline and me not wanting to walk a tightrope every class).

ex-spouse guy would depend on circumstance and my relationship with them.

transgender guy, I'd make the class watch "Beautiful Boxer" and make it clear I wouldn't tolerate any hassle.

Mr -Pay-to -Learn, I'd suggest private classes.

That being said, I don't teach anyway
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#271036 - 07/13/06 02:10 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
Ed

Good questions---very thought provoking, as usual.

1-No, would sit down with him and go over my concerns and work out a plan to help him meet his goals

2-Yes, the rules are there for EVERYONES saftey--not just his

3-Relgious reasons not to use the correct terms for techiniques?
I'd pretty much insist that the correct terms are being used--again for saftey sake.

-Rank--could care less
-Uniform--If everyone is wearing one so should they
-Bow--could care less.

4-Why would "transgender" be an issue? I would not consider it an issue at all

5-Might take the money---in order to do a "kata" correctly would take enough effort that they would have to learn FAR more than just the kata--they would have learned at least the basics of the system.

I see no reason not to teach them any kata another "white belt" would know.

My answer would be different if they wanted to learn a advanced kata--maybe.

6-Nope, if they and a realtive of mine are at odds--and my sister is NOT to blame then I can't see that I would teach them.

7-If the student is "ok" taking forever to improve then thats his/her choice.
Some folks just want to train as they please--and its not about ME.

8-If they are "better" than me--then why would they want to learn from me?

-If they just want to learn a "different" style--then sure, why not?
Happy for them to teach me what THEY know as well.

-If they are there just to keep in training--sure, why not?

9-Exercise--sure, martial arts training is pretty good for you--they training right, they will end up with more than they came in for--and that is not a bad thing.

10-Maybe not--such person would really stuggle--might be setting them up for failure in BOTH schools.

If they could gut it out AND keep what they do "there"--seperate from what we do "here"--maybe.

Guess I would advise him/her to pick a style and focus on it--but if they would not listen?
Then I guess I would let them try.

And in answer to your question--yes I have refused to teach people, mainly for general attitude reasons.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#271037 - 07/14/06 12:01 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3113
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Ed:



The criteria would be a pretty small list, but there would be some iron clad no-no's which would merit refusal.

Weight is not on the list.

Stupidity however is on the refusal list. Jewelry is not allowed and must be removed period. IF they won't remove it for a brief class period, they cannot study. It/they will get destroyed... avoid the avoidable injury ergo jewelry is not allowed.

Misperceptions & Beliefs. Provided they have a basic understanding of our reasons for using such actions (whatever they might be)... and do not interfear with them in any way the door is open.

Training is not about ones sexual interests or activities.
Therefore literally not relevant.

As CXT mentioned previously depends on the particular what & why somebody wanted to learn a given concept or practice. As to relatives, much persistance is absolutely necessary before I would ever consider it. Paid but uncommitted. Their needs are somehow met and we teach regardless... The conversation will occur at some point "...we are glad to have you but do you realize..." As to the ~exercise student~, again their needs are met. Provided they do not expect the curricilium to keep them ~entertained~, or altered to fit their mistaken perceptions, the door is open.

As to the double experience & skill student & the simultainous arts "studier"... the former I would be very, extremely cautious. Why do they wish to study with me? What do they seek to learn given their tangible skills, and experience? Possible yes... but ~shields are up~ and at maximum.

The latter what is their purpose, their goal studying multiple places? Much less at the same time... not a prayer they will stay at either long....

Jeff

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#271038 - 07/14/06 02:19 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
1. 350lbs. - No: Morbidly obese, risk of heart attack, stroke ot joint problems, too much liability, lose 150 lbs first.

2. Multiple face peircings - Yes: Must wear headgear of my choosing, it will get hot in there

3. Religious reasons - No: Find something closer to your beliefs, school won't change for 1 person

4. Transgender female - Yes: as long as 'her' behavior & appearance isn't disruptive (read 'flaming')

5. Will pay money for kata or skill - Depends: Tell them they will acquire that kata/skill in regulat class training, alternative is private lessons w/o grading

6. Your sibling's ex-spouse - No: too much baggage/history (& she may be too hot!)

7. Always pays on time, one class per month - Yes: It's their $$$

8. More skill than yourself - Yes: Forces me to be sharper, I could learn something too

9. Not interested in MA just exercise - Yes: must do everything the class does, won't promote if they don't fight

10. Student of another school - Yes: who hasn't cross-trained, would like to know if the other sensei is OK w/ it...if not, sorry, don't solicit students from my school though or you're out

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#271039 - 07/14/06 08:27 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

What's the problem?

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

Hard luck. If he wants to train, they come out.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

My House, my rules!

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Depends if the other transgender in the class (was female, now male, without operation) wants a date with him/her.

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.


How much?

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

As the legal battle only revolves around custody of the family hamster, I think I'll let it slide.

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

If it works for him and doesn't affect me, fine.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

No one that exceeds my own skill level by that much could possibly be humble about it. They'd be shouting from the rooftops.

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

Many people train for many different reasons.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

What's the problem?
_________________________
John L

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#271040 - 07/14/06 10:35 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: JohnL]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Are you and Ross Perot brothers? LOL
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#271041 - 07/14/06 12:31 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
MartinVonCannon Offline
Newbie

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 13
Quote:


1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.




None of these are worth turning someone away.

Quote:


3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.




These would be reason. They boil down to discipline and open-mindedness. The person is obviously not secure in themselves and not open minded.

Quote:


4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).




Not a problem.

Quote:


5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.




This would not be worth my time nor theirs. They obviously have skill, or want only to learn something specific. That or they just don't want to bother. So neither would I.

Quote:


6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.




For conflicting points of view, I might. Depends on my relationship with them and my sibling.

Quote:


7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.




If the student is happy this way, by all means let them come.

Quote:


8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.




Although these are challenges, these are not reasons enough to turn them away.
_________________________
- Martin E. Von Cannon

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#271042 - 07/15/06 08:17 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Curious list. Good for a few laughs.

I'd turn a student away if I suspected serious mental illness that would lead to inappropriate aggressive/violent behavior.

I'd take the 350 lb student with an MD note of approval and a contract that states the school is not responsible ... such as all other students sign.

I'd be watchful of the transgendered person as I would other very unusual people just because I'm not perfect. The objective would be to dismiss anyone who sexualizes the learning experience regardless looks tattoos, body piercing, or other physical attributes. If there is no problem, I wouldn't make one.

I would question the person from 2 schools. My upbringing is that you don't study from another schools unless you are seriously thinking about changeing schools, or already a black belt. If a person were in a color rank and studying some place else and not considering just changeing over, I'd want approval from the other school.

I would take a student who just wanted to learn one thing if in interview it sounded reasonable. I might be there myself in awhile. I really want to learn Sanchin, for example. It is not one of our school kata but it has great energy, technique and historical value.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271043 - 07/16/06 03:11 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
haze Offline
Dragon

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Syracuse NY USA
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

Will need medical permission.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

Take them out or get out.(nothing against piercings)

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

This is ok. To each their own.

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Big lawsuit coming on this one

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

No, out

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

No, stay out of the family disputes

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

Talk to them, see whats up.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

Opportunity for me to learn

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

To each their own.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

Ok with me if they have permission from the other teacher too.
_________________________
David

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#271044 - 07/17/06 12:59 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: haze]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

Got one nearly like that now,not a problem.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

Bye,bye bozo.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

Please don't come to my school and tell me what you won't do. buh-bye.

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Ok,if I can keep from laughing.

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

Private lessons?Sure,why not.

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

Buh-bye

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

Nope,they'd have to relearn everything each month.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

Teach me!!

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

Go do Tae bo!

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

Sure!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#271045 - 07/17/06 05:10 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

I'd do it, but it would be a challenge. Would worry about the rest of the students being slowed down.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

Get over it man. I'd give him a speech about liability - especially regarding the safety of other students. Lose them or I lose you.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

Don't think I'd push any of that, but I would def be put off by someone who refuses to speak words in another language. If you're that xenophobic, why would you want to learn an MA of foreign origin to begin with?

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Sure. Every time I see Boys Don't Cry I sort of hope the ending changes and Hillary Swank takes on her Million Dollar Baby persona and kicks those guys butt$ before they do what they do. I have no problem teaching SD to anyone who could be the potential victim of a hate crime. However, they get no special treatment because of their "difference".

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

"For $200 I will teach you Monkey Steals the Peach."
Cha-ching.

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

Can't really discriminate over that, as much as I would want to. Maybe some MA would chill them out.

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

I'd probably have a sit down and tell them that they're wasting their money and my time.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

I'd make them a partner!

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

Hope you like sparring, because we don't have any workoutamajig machinery here.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

It would be pretty hypocritical of me if I didn't.

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#271046 - 07/18/06 05:02 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 905
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
Very interesting topic. My reasoning would be

1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

As long as I get his Doctor's bill of health then everything is ok I'd slowly work him to get himself fitter and let him control how hard to push him.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

Its My Dojo - thats the rules, like them or 'Goodbye you are the weakest link' go find a MCdojo who's only interested in get money from you

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

Again, Its My Dojo - thats the rules, like them or 'Goodbye you are the weakest link' go find a MCdojo who's only interested in get money from you


4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Hey in a Gi, we all 'look' the same so as long as they personally don't make an issue of it they'll be treated the same as any other student

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

Hey, this is where I see $ signs in my eyes (Welcome to Mcdojoland) I would add that they must purchase a Licence (Insurance) and GI and yeah no probs $'s for a Kata they could learn it from a book/DVD for $20

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

Sorry, Family is first, I'd recommend another Dojo for them to train in

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

As with other replies, I would have to speak to them regards what they want out of the style. if it transpires they have other issues, try and resolve them they might start coming more often

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

The style I teach is not traditional Karate so there are no Kata which they would know, I find that those with Experience make the best students. I never look at my students as lesser mortals, I see them all as future Instructors

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

tell them to find a Mcdojo or join a Gym or even find a 'Taibo' or 'Boxersize' with the Lycra brigade Karate is about the whole not just exercise

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

Again, The style I teach is not traditional Karate so there are no Kata which they would know, I find that those with Experience make the best students. As long as their other Sensei is happy for them to 'Cross tain' so am I but as long as it doesn't interfer with their learning - I was studying Ashihara karate, Krav Maga, Atemi Jujitsu and Wado Ryu, I've wittled it down to Ashihara Karate (that I teach) and Wado Ryu which I study as white belt.

_________________________
A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

Ken

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#271047 - 07/18/06 07:14 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Dobbersky]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
OK my curiosity is getting the better of me. In my list response, I mentioned that I WOULD take the student who wants to learn a particular technique or kata. I'm assuming that other factors are appropriate. I mentioned that I personally could be in that position because I want to learn Sanchin. I am surprised by how many people wouldn't want to teach it to me. Yes, I actually do have the video of the version I want to learn and I've checked around with the exponents of my style to make sure that it is the one I want. It is just different learning something as rich as Sanchin from someone who "grew up" with it and loves it than just getting it from some forum postings and a DVD. This is hypothetical, of course, but why wouldn't people want to teach me Sanchin (or something else applicable that I might want from your school/style)?
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271048 - 07/18/06 10:58 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
many probably wouldn't because styles are considered a package deal. and I can see the reasoning if they were teaching it that way. the fact is, most don't teach how Sanchin relates to principals and tactics that is fundamental and common to the Art. The movements are taught along with the impression it's a 'conditioning' exercise and not any deeper than that.

It's funny (odd) because places that just teach movements and exercise might not teach just the one kata since they want to give the impression to others that it's a package deal. lol

personally, I do see it as a fundamental which makes it particularly suited to teach it on it's own. but I don't teach since I'm a hobbyist still learning. but if someone wanted to know the movements and some thoughts on it in person, I'd share that, but not for money since I never mix business with fun.

btw, underdog, we should get together some time - you aren't too far away and the stuff you and Gavin explained in the PPoint forum does sound interesting.

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#271049 - 07/18/06 11:26 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: underdog]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I'm a newbie to the arts, but I wouldn't teach Sanchin except as exercise to a newbie. And it is completely for selfish reasons. I'd want a student who would committ to learning something that I valued...and I consider Sanchin to be 'the Jewel of Goju'.

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#271050 - 07/18/06 11:33 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
there's no reason to turn a student away unless you simply don't want to teach them. As a teacher, they're at your mercy to only learn what you show them. If they aren't worthy of being given "the good stuff", just keep it to yourself or coach your other students privately.

People study martial arts for all kinds of reasons, and just because I don't think their reasons match mine isn't reason to refuse to teach them. Unless they show or have bad character, they can learn as much as they can without the specific instruction necessary for them to be "lethal".

I never know how a student is going to turn out until I've spent some time training with them and by then, I've either decided to teach them everything or dry things up enough that they'll go away on their own. I had one student who was terrible, and in the course of teaching him, I gained three others who were exceptional that were his friends and came to study with us. He eventually left on his own because he just wanted to tell everybody he was taking martial arts, but he didn't ever develop any real skills. His three friends, however, have been doing martial arts for several years now, and growing daily in their practice.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#271051 - 07/20/06 10:36 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I hear what you are saying. just to make it clear, I don't teach because I don't consider myself qualified. maybe some aspects I'm qualified, but not the Art as a whole.

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#271052 - 07/20/06 01:59 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: wristtwister]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I understand that different schools may have different teaching missions. For example: if a class were for training police officers or if the class were a part of the military, then the mission is very different than the martial arts school on the shopping plaza complete with its kids classes and tiny tigers (which have already been trashed in another thread). There are teachers around who only teach black belts and so on. A teacher is welcome to teach in any setting and with any mission that fits his/her personal goals.

For my part, the dogged underdog, I am grateful to the teachers who just feel great patience and neighborliness who take me on as a student. I'm grateful to all the teachers who are themselves worthy practitioners and who want to "give back" some of what the art has given them. Who you turn down has to do with your mission statement. If your school advertises that you school is for men and women of all ages, then folks with any manner of disability may show up. Some you will be able to teach and some, you won't know how or won't have the resources to help. Some will be atypical students like me. I am very glad to be having my opportunity to study. I love what I am doing even knowing I will never be amongst the truly great. But know what? I think I might be the toughest grandmother in Mansfield Ma.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271053 - 07/22/06 04:24 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Come to Cape Cod this upcoming weekend. Contact Cody at Kyusho.cody@verizon.net. Conference runs from Friday evening to Sunday afternoon. Lots of Kyusho. If you come, PM me so that I'll know how to recognize you. I'm easy to pick out. There are usually not many females.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271054 - 07/23/06 05:29 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Derik Offline
Cruisin' for a bruisin'

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 161
Here another one, somone in a wheelchair with no function of their lower body

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#271055 - 07/23/06 08:21 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Derik]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Actually, one of our competition schools has a black belt with little function in his legs. His preferred mode of ambulation is by wheel chair, although I've seen him use a crutches with his chair nearby for when he met his limit on the crutches. He was great and inspiring. Someone did the right thing to give him a chance.

I had a wheel chair student with developmental delay in my special needs class for a few years but that was a special deal. All of those students were awesome.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271056 - 07/23/06 06:52 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: underdog]
Derik Offline
Cruisin' for a bruisin'

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 161
Theres a black belt in my style too that is in a wheelchair he devolped basicly a sign language for kicks

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#271057 - 09/03/06 05:10 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Jeff_G Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 222
Loc: Midwest
How about the guy who came into the club one night carrying a baseball bat? He looked like he had just had the business end of that bat used on his face in the past 24 hours. He also appeared to have self medicated with a bottle of something.

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#271058 - 09/03/06 08:00 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Jeff_G]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Sounds like for this guy I call the police.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271059 - 09/03/06 10:49 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

>> no problem, big guys are great to work with

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

>> tata, no way a cross face won't rip some of them out

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

>> fine by me, but they've gotta shake hands and show proper respect

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

>> no problem there

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

>> how big is x?

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

>> I'd have to think about it, but as long as they pay and don't cause trouble, why not?

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

>> ehh, that's a tough one, I'd probably give them a discount

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

>> no problem at all, I'd welcome them

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

>> sure, as long as they don't become a hindrance

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously

>> no problem at all, unless they'd be entering competitions, if it's the same type of competition at both schools, then no, that would be some issues, completely different style, I'm all for it

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#271060 - 09/05/06 11:12 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Uchinanchu Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
Edsan, Hisashiburi ne.

As usual, your posts can be quite thought provoking at times....and humbling. You are already a great "teacher" whether you realize it or not.
I know it's been quite awhile since I have posted anything, so I thought I would chime in for once (instead of just lurking). I found everyone's posts interesting, in that they were all so similar in answering the questions. On that note, let me answer your questions in my own fashion.

Teaching on a military installation for a few years (under contract) was quite a pain. When dealing with the military, you run into all sorts of "interesting" people that you HAVE to deal with in a certain specific way (usually outlined in the contract). Also, you must go thru a costomer service class (if contracted thru MCCS) so as not to loose potential "customers".
Needless to say, one gets tired of having one's hands tied as to how one "runs a business". I did not start teaching to make money. I did it to honor my obligation to my sensei and his teachings. So, I basically became a very bad business man and ran things EXACTLY the way I wanted to.

So to finally answer your questions (in my own fashion), if I ever return stateside, I will not advertise, so the only students that I will ever encounter will be ones that have a direct invitation from myself, or have a formal letter of introduction from a third party.
Once they have been evaluated, I will then decide if I wish to keep them on as a student. Harsh sounding? Maybe, but as I said, I am NOT a business man.
As I have stated in earlier posts, my sensei's dojo is always open and we welcome all interested parties...but rules of a dojo are not to be taken lightly. If it is your dojo, you can be as "flexible" with your rules as YOU wish to be. If it's ran like a business, well, you have obligations other than passing on your teachings, to worry about.
Sorry if this sounded preachy. It's not meant to be. Just running a school under contract left a bad taste in my mouth for quite awhile...
_________________________
All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power.

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#271061 - 09/05/06 11:48 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
Galen Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/04
Posts: 381
1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

Not only would they not be turned away, I would encourage them to come in and train as long and hard as is safe for them. Being one who was once overweight myself, I have nothing but respect for anyone who faces that challenge and is resolute to beat it.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

As far as I am concerned, its not only their safety at risk. Itís the students they train with. Sorry. The piercings are removed (all of them) for class, or they donít train.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

I would try to explain that some of these trappings are simply part of the curriculum, and not reflective of any religious stances one way or another. If they still refused, they have demonstrated a willingness and demand to be above the other students, and refuse to follow protocol. Gone.

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

Cant think of anything more irrelevant. They would be more than welcome to train.

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

To me that is like a student pilot saying ďI only want to learn how to take off.Ē

Nope.

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

If I got the impression that their desire to train is pure, they would be more than welcome.

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

It would be made clear that their progress would likely be commensurate with their attendance. If they want to pay full dues and only take advantage of one class per month, thatís their call. No issue.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

Why someone like that would want to pay to attend a class that they wont learn much from is beyond me, but I would certainly not turn them away.

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

They reasons for training are their own, and as long as they follow the curriculum, more power to them.


10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

I openly encourage my students to train in other styles and other arts. I recommend that they wait until they have a solid foundation in one before trying another, but its hardly a rule. No problem.

G
_________________________
Nothing imperfect is the measure of anything!

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#271062 - 09/10/06 01:40 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
vegantkd Offline
Member

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 121
"4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation)."
isn't it illegal to turn away someone for this reason?

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#271063 - 09/10/06 03:03 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: vegantkd]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
It may or may not be illegal. I think it depends on the state. Some states come pretty close to making it illegal. It is probably foolish. Firstly, someone's sexual orientation or sexual identification, or sexual anything else, ought never to enter the discussion. The only time it should ever become an issue, regardless of sexual attributes, would be if someone (1) sexualized the physical contact which is unavoidable in martial arts,(2) used vulgar language or other sexually inappropriate language or sexually harrassing language (3) was inappropriately coming on to others in the school (4) shunned the dress code and was not dressed properly for class. If none of these are an issue, then who cares?
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#271064 - 09/10/06 03:53 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Prizewriter]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Quote:

The only person I have ever seen turned away from class was a man who had a criminal record and didn't declare it to the instructor. (Police check turned it up). He lasted 2 lessons.




he has done his time, doesn't he deserve a second chance?
_________________________
YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

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#271065 - 09/11/06 02:10 AM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: Ed_Morris]
crablord Offline
th3 t4sty sn4ck

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 1530
Loc: Australia, QLD, GC
Quote:


1. the person is average height, but well over 350lbs.

are we talking muscle or fat here? if its fat then no.

2. the person has multiple face peircings and tells you they won't remove them but is willing to risk it.

nope, depending on the piercings, if small then yes.

3. the person mentions, for religious reasons, they will not engage in any 'ceremonial' or iconic things like wearing rank, bowing, or speaking a foreign language nor recite any codes.

nope, religion [censored] me off. If they cant wear the uniform or bow then [censored] em. (srry lol)

4. the person is obviously a transgender female, (was male-is now a female, without operation).

no, i can imagine how awkward it would be if i had to spar with a transexual. that is if i didnt just leave then and there. So no go on this one.

5. tells you they will pay x money to learn 1 particular kata or skill.

Sure i guess...no harm done

6. the person happens to be your sibling's ex-spouse who is cuurently going thru a nasty legal battle with each other.

sure, if the guys nice then why not..plus, who says we like our siblings

7. a student who always pays on time and in full, but consitantly only shows up to one class per month.

yep, no harm done again.

8. a person who has double the amount of MA experience as you and visibly more skill than yourself, but is humble about it.

sure, nothing wrong with that

9. someone who is not particularly interested in the Art, but more in the exercise aspect.

Yep, sure. as long as he did what he was told.

10. a student of another school, who you know will be taking the other art simultaneously.

absolutely. This is a good thing.


_________________________
"They say the only way to kill a lion is with a rear naked choke, but I'd just kick it in the head"

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#271066 - 09/11/06 11:12 PM Re: would you ever turn a student away? [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
interesting responses. whats more interesting is the collective profiles it makes. painting a broad stroke, I read two basic philosophies here:

"my way or the highway"
vs.
"politically correct"

with perhaps a gray area inbetween, that I'll call: "business casual".

I'll go a little off-topic, but wanted to mention this, since it may be of interest...

not surprizingly, your responses could roughly fall into management and leadership personalities/styles. ..and with more people opening their own - probably led to the spike in 'dojo management' books recently (most are trash and just recycled '101' management courses or 'get rich quick' schemes).

For some depth on the subject, whether you manage your own gym for free enjoyment or as a business - I recommend reading "The 33 Strategies of War" by Robert Greene.
http://www.amazon.com/33-Strategies-War-Robert-Greene/dp/0670034576
It puts business and personal decisions/pitfalls in a martial framework with real world philosophies to dig your thoughts into.

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