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#270067 - 07/12/06 05:49 PM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: ANDY44]
HiddenFist Offline

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
In regards to your question of bunkai-
The application of tree training is quite simple. There was a time when the shaolin were under persecution from the emperor, like wise with the okinawans who were being controlled by the Japanese. They were not allowed to have any weaponry, as it would mean they could fight back(immediately). So they had to transform their bodies into weapons. Weapons strong enough to break ARMOR and kill opponents with attacks such as spearhands,knifehands, hammer fists, etc.
That my friend would be the BUNKAI you seek.

#270068 - 07/13/06 07:49 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: HiddenFist]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

thank you for sharing that video and shedding some light on the subject.
In regards to all the other stuff,
The bags were all new, and usually leather or canvas. My hands are fine and my instructors hands are all fine as well.
I can strike a tree with full force and not break anything.
This is also not limited to strictly the fists. this also includes forearms,elbows, forehead, knees, shins/insteps/ and the ball,blade,heel and arch of the feet.
On a final note, if I were to video tape an actual tree training session, or even one of our higher ups destroying a bag, what would keep you from then claiming the videos were fakes? I won't waste the time or money.

The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#270069 - 07/14/06 02:48 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: HiddenFist]
ANDY44 Offline

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Mr Hiddenfist.

Just looked at the vidio posted by Mike.

It would seem that Your and my perception of punching/strikes are some what different.

I see the instructor on the vidio using a tree to condition his limbs. Note I said condition. He is not striking full power on the tree. He is using it to condition his limbs.
Nothing wrong with that. All in all the guy looks like he is a good practicing martial artist.

That is not the same as using a full force strike against a makai wari set in the ground or a heavy bag. To be able to hit harder then a person must hit as hard as they can and try to improve on it. With the correct technique.

Full force strikes can not be used against stationary objects such as trees.If you think you are doing it then you might poss not be hitting hard enough.

Consider the joints consider the wear and tear on the joints. Conside the correct joint alinement while striking. Mis aline a FULL force strike against som thing like a tree means damaged/broken part's of a human body. Doesnt matter how hard you think som eone is.


I should imagine the guy on the vidio poss would use maki wari and bag work looking at his technique.

I dont know the guy but i am guessing.

Regards your bunkia im not sure at what stage you are of training but if it is mis guided enthusiasm then fine.

Ok mis understanding.

Edited by ANDY44 (07/14/06 02:51 AM)

#270070 - 07/14/06 02:55 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: MikeC]
ANDY44 Offline

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814

Edited by ANDY44 (07/14/06 03:27 AM)

#270071 - 07/14/06 03:16 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: MikeC]
ANDY44 Offline

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Goju Ryu Jundokan Miyazato-Ha

Ok could we talk about what these guys are doing on the vidio you posted?
Not the tree part I can see what he is doing with that.
Is that your style?

Why the split?


So Mike would you like to explain this please?
The first part of what the Instructer was doing would have been end of confrontation in that the opponent would have had his elbow broken plus whatever came after.

That is one of my favourite techniques.
and I use a maki wari to condition for it.

Do you want to discuss this?


Edited by ANDY44 (07/14/06 03:30 AM)

#270072 - 07/14/06 06:03 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: HiddenFist]
peter586 Offline

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 110
I belive you i do the tree thing the only thing thats stoping me now is not wanting to get arthiritis so i have some quistions how old are you? do you have any tips on how to avoid arthiritis in old age? and does hitting a tree improve your punching power or just condition you? thanks

#270073 - 07/14/06 06:04 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: senseiaverywax]
peter586 Offline

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 110
sensei is it true you dont have Arthiritis because i was very into turning my hands and feet into rocks i noticed huge diferences in my hands and shins from practicing on trees but i stoped because every one said i would get you have a secret you would tell me on how you avoided it, thanks

#270074 - 07/14/06 08:04 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: peter586]
HiddenFist Offline

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
the secret lies in your approach to this type of training. There is a science to it. Much more than anyone here can seem to grasp since I am held in such disregard for my two cents.
There is actually a long process that builds up to tree and rock training. One of the best things to do is get small canvas bags filled with beans and strike those with all different types of hand techniques. Do this for several months until your strikes are strong enough to crush the beans into powder easily, and you will also start to notice light callousing on the skin. You may combine this with makiwara and heavy bag training.
You also want to make sure you are doing the proper exercises for your joints. You need to build up the strength in your wrist, elbow,shoulder, hip, and knee stabilizers so you can avoid injury and sustain power.
The next step after that is typically a bag filled with gravel or small river rock, but I actually have found makiwara training to be better at first in this stage. Use the makiwara regularly. When you can hit it full force without any pain or knock back then take the padding off of it. Start light with this. Hit the makiwara reglarly but slowly build your power, also start striking a canvas bag filled with rocks. Make sure you are using dit da jow or any other strong anti bruising liniment regularly, it is a must in this type of training.
Finally after about a year to a year and a half you will be ready for tree training. When striking the tree start off soft. BY NO MEANS AM I SAYING PULL your strike. I am saying start off by throwing your technique soft and then slowly over time hit the tree harder and harder and so on. Always allow time in between sessions for the hands and feet to heal. Eventually when they are conditioned from this they will no longer bruise easily from this type of training.
A good way to tell you are hitting the tree and moving it is to go out first thing in the morning and strike it. The dew will fall out of the tree when you hit it. Pine trees and cypress trees are the best for this type of training. Ther reason is Pine and cypress are a soft wood. Same goes for palm trees. If you are serious about this training I can give you a basic conditioning program, just let me know and I will email you.
The roots for this type of training comes from the shaolin iron palm practices.
Any cases of arthritis coming from this type of training is due to improper preparation, training, and technique.

#270075 - 07/14/06 08:17 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: peter586]
HiddenFist Offline

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
also, in regards to your other questions- my father started me in this type of training when I was 4 years old. Only our makiwara were never padded. I have been doing this now for 20 years. My father is in his 50's and his hands are strong as can be, and he has no arthritis. My current instructors are all in the ages of 40's, 50's, and 60's and they have done this type of training as well, and they also have no arhtritis. The best advice I can give about this type of training is don't rush it. It takes time and preparation.
In regards to your question about conditioning and strength. This type of training conditions as well as builds power in your attacks.

Edited by HiddenFist (07/14/06 08:21 AM)

#270076 - 07/14/06 09:21 AM Re: makawari or heavy bag.....or both? [Re: HiddenFist]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Sensei -

Please do not multiple post.

Edited by MattJ (07/14/06 09:54 AM)

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