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#269787 - 07/10/06 05:45 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
geez its like a never ending circle...

I would simply say, look at the replies that Jkogas gave up there in response to my comments. He does say that theres nothing wrong with practicing 1 "style" its the training that they lack in. So with that said, all the MMA and WC comparisons and such shouldn't be relevent. I mean I'm sure a great amount of us here agree that style has nothing to do with fighting capability. A capoeirista can just as easily knock out a TKDist like a wrestler to a Judoka.

And though I understand where you're coming from, sport doesnt mean the end of all self-defense and fighting. I'm sure some WTF TKD guys out there can give you a pretty tough fight if you tried to rob him of his wallet. And I would say competition will give you quite an accurate simulation of what will happen on the street. Ok so you're avg joe might not be able to do lap sao or kimora locks but still they will fight hard and fast, using up lots of energy. And I'm sure you will too and so it appears that these "combat" sports, like MMA and TKD and Judo and whatever you want to add helps to function better under stress.

And yea I'll juss add again MMA doesnt = sport. I'm sure there are MMA guys out there who don't train to fight for the UFC but for their own defense. And TMA works just as well as "MMA" does. Its not the style, its how they train. And I cant remember what else I wanted to say....

And yea I know that wasn't long John, but for me?? hahaha
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#269788 - 07/10/06 06:33 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
monji112000 wrote
Quote:

MMA is not just sport - it is a training methodology that can be applied to anything.


…………..well yes and no. That really depends on what you consider MMA and how you are applying it. If you are talking about using what works and training logically and effectively. Sure but that’s not MMA, that’s common sense.





Not exactly. That’s part of it, but not all of it. It is also training three ranges simultaneously in an integrated manner.


Quote:

You seem to be fixated on the UFC and MMA competition, but you can train MMA for self defense just as easily.

………………..well again that’s true if you add self defense styles to your mix, not if you use MMA geared for Tournament fighting.





Then please explain what the difference is? What is (in your opinion) the difference between tournament “styles” and self-defense “styles”?



Quote:


See really it still comes down to the basic concept that we Disagree with. I read all the comments and I understand were you are coming from. if you are going to start talking about Mixing styles like Krav or something similar then sure MMA is great for self-defense.





Its really important here to understand that a punch is a punch is a punch, regardless of what “style” it comes from. Some are performed better than others. What’s the difference between a Krav Maga punch and an “MMA” punch? Considering that Km draws from many of the same sources that MMA draws from, how CAN there be a difference? I’d like your take on that.


Quote:

Really under-estimating here. It is not "taking the middle road" when you are INCORRECTLY attempting to put MMA people in a box


……………………well they are two different topics. I will define MMA in general the way most MMA fighters define it. The General public and Most magazines and MMA "fighters" define it by the rules of Pride,UFC,IFL ect.. That’s fine with me, I love MMA. I have enjoyed watching Pride/UFC for a long time. I am very happy about IFL.





You see, that’s how YOU define MMA. That’s as well and good, but I have a another definition of what MMA is. It isn’t based on rules. No one that trains with me trains for competition. So where again do these rules come into play, especially for folks like us?


Quote:


I am in the middle, because at one end you have people who believe in only 1 style. Which I understand their logic, and it makes sense. On the other side you have people who believe in training as many styles as they can learn effectively. I also follow their logic, I am in the middle. I train at a traditional school, were 1 style is pushed at a very intense training regimen. But, when I have some free time I plan to start another style. But, really only as a compliment not as a equal. So really I am in the middle.





MMA isn’t about style. It isn’t style specific. It borrows from styles and utilizes any tool that it needs to meet it’s demands. But it isn’t limited to a specific skill-set or toolbox. You can use whatever you can get to “work”.



Quote:


Again if you define MMA not as UFC/PRIDE style of fighting, then its PERFECT for self-defense. But that can be said about ANY style including traditional styles. For example a Karate player can be just as effective as a MMA fighter if you apply the same training methodology.





I’ve been saying the same thing for years. I’ve said as much in this thread.

MMA isn’t about style. It’s about HOW you train and not WHAT you train. But to train to be functional, you’re going to have to train functionally. That will mean dropping a LOT of things that tend to “define” more traditional martial arts.



Quote:


You don't per say need to MIX styles to be "effective". That’s another point that we Disagree on, but again I understand both sides.




MMA isn’t so much about mixing styles, again because there ultimately ARE no such things as “styles”. It’s about mixing striking and grappling. It’s about allowing two distinct approaches to be “mixed” together. That isn’t often the case within most martial arts practices, or, at least it wasn’t the case until the UFC rolled around. All of a sudden, the sprawl was in EVERY TMA curriculum where before, you’d rarely ever heard anyone even mention it, unless the folks talking were former wrestlers.



Quote:


Maybe I don't come from a "normal" traditional martial art school.. but then you are putting traditional martial arts in a box.





I’m defending MMA. I’ve been defending combat sports from morons for years. That anti “sport”
thinking is changing very slowly. A lot more get it now than used to however.

We’re ALL guilty at times of lumping people into a box. The only thing that I’m saying is that, if you don’t train a certain way, you’re not going to maximize your efforts. I understand that not everyone desires to be pro-fighter. But the thing is, you don’t have to be a pro fighter to train “like” one. Not everyone has the time to train 6 to 8 hours a day. The good part is, you don’t have to in order to train functionally. All that matters is that your training no be compartmentalized (a separated segment of striking and another one of grappling - or, only one such approach and none of the other).

Fights don’t happen in compartmentalized, fragmented manners. Real fights include both striking and grappling. MMA training is simply taking that same approach in order to create fighters capable of “going with the flow”.

Common sense would tell you that’s a good thing. For the LIFE of me, I just can’t understand why people want to argue against something so logical. Yet they - and YOU - continue to do so with amazing consistency.


Quote:


Again you can train in a traditional martial art and use effective, scientific training. Its not Mixing if you train effectively. Its just common sense. Really This has been done since Ip man, and its a normal in my style.




Don’t you mean, “YIP” man? In any case, if your training is alive and includes every range available, it’s going to look like MMA regardless of what you want to “name” it.



IExcalibui2 wrote

Quote:

geez its like a never ending circle...

I would simply say, look at the replies that Jkogas gave up there in response to my comments. He does say that there’s nothing wrong with practicing 1 "style" its the training that they lack in. So with that said, all the MMA and WC comparisons and such shouldn't be relevant. I mean I'm sure a great amount of us here agree that style has nothing to do with fighting capability. A capoeirista can just as easily knock out a TKDist like a wrestler to a Judoka.





Lets not get carried away here, lol. Sure, anything can happen. But again, it comes down to functional training. I’ve not seen a lot of functional training within Capoeira. I’ve not seen it in a LOT of it within TKD. I HAVE seen it in boxing, wrestling, judo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, sombo, catch-as-catch-can, and muay Thai. Some savate I have seen is awesome. Obviously it really depends on the group or school in question.



Quote:


And yea I'll just add again MMA doesn’t = sport. I'm sure there are MMA guys out there who don't train to fight for the UFC but for their own defense.




Absolutely! What many people don’t realize is that we’re not an MMA gym (in that I don’t have a competition team - at least for the time being). I’ve been a long-time JKD guy and use the MMA approach as a training tool. That’s nothing but absorbing what is useful. MMA is extremely useful.


Quote:


And TMA works just as well as "MMA" does. Its not the style, its how they train. And I cant remember what else I wanted to say.…





Yes, HOW one trains is more important than anything. However, TMA and MMA train differently or they wouldn’t have such distinct differences. Otherwise it would ALL be MMA wouldn’t it? You need to also realize that for the most part, there are very concrete things that make TMA, TMA! It is “traditional” for a reason.




-John

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#269789 - 07/10/06 10:39 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: JKogas]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
well John if a capoerista trains functionally wouldnt he be able to defend himself?? Yea alot of groups (not just limited to capoeira) dont train functionally but hey, thats where the individual kicks in and does something about it.

And I know TMA do have different and certain training methods. But they do have very basic underlying principles that they follow. I mean a Southern Mantis principle maybe different from an Arnis one but still they have their principles. So you have these principles and like I said earlier on you can apply them to every situation you're presented.

This is where people have to think out of the box and create more techniques if you will to add to the art's arsenal. Now say a WC man takes these principles and apply them to the ground fight then wouldnt he have made something thats "Wing Chun" styled grappling?? I mean there are only so many ways (actually theres a lot, but there is a limit) the body can be manipulated. So there are bound to be techniques that are the same or very similar to techinques in other arts. But back to the WC grappling. I mean if he created it without outside influence then wouldn't it be still considered a TMA??

Yes TMA means training in a traditional manner but its not like its never been battle tested before. And to say that JuJutsu isnt a TMA is kind of wierd to me since its essentially been in the Japanese MA world for centuries. Whether or not it formally had a name and organization doesnt mean it didnt exist before. I would say many many MA out there (maybe in the high 90 percentile?) are traditional. Muay Thai is a very traditional thing and has very deep roots in the religion and culture of the Thai people and has been around for thousands of years. Seems pretty traditional to me, whether it is to foreigners and the western world is a different story.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#269790 - 07/11/06 02:33 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Dang. STILL waiting for thread to return to subject....

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#269791 - 07/11/06 07:34 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

well John if a capoerista trains functionally wouldnt he be able to defend himself??





Certainly! BUT, it would probably stop looking like Capoeira if he did. It would start looking more like MMA. Would it then cease to be Capoeira? That’s the question. Another question would be, who CARES what its called or “looks like”, when functional training is all that matters. This is what Bruce Lee meant when he said he didn’t believe in styles and, only believed in one style - the “human style”.

Styles, schmyles.


Quote:


Yea alot of groups (not just limited to capoeira) dont train functionally but hey, thats where the individual kicks in and does something about it.




It doesn’t take a style to kick well. It just takes kicking. Kicking isn’t owned by any one style and many styles share the same kicks. I mean, there ARE only so many ways to kick someone if you really think about it. What matters then is how those kicks are trained. Doing cartwheels is, IMO, not the most effective method of fighting someone. That is a stylistic, ritualistic, method of practice. If we were to just drop everything that is done for sake of art and focus only on tool development, we would all likely develop as functional fighters at a quicker pace.


Quote:


And I know TMA do have different and certain training methods. But they do have very basic underlying principles that they follow. I mean a Southern Mantis principle maybe different from an Arnis one but still they have their principles. So you have these principles and like I said earlier on you can apply them to every situation you're presented.





MY question is, why have all these various principles when (at last count) the MAJORITY of us have only two arms and two legs? I mean sure, some of the lucky one’s have an three arms or legs, but for the most part this is true. If that’s so, why the need for umpteen thousand different martial arts styles? Lets just train, ya know?! Throw out what isn’t needed. You’ll often find that 90 percent of a martial arts practice is wasted time. Why? Ritualistic, out-dated training methods that really don’t do anything to create functional ability.

You could develop more skill at a faster pace by dropping all the stuff you don’t need! IMO, most people are interested in developing as quickly as possible. It’d be hard to find someone that said; “Ah, no thanks. I’m really more interested in having things be as difficult as possible. I prefer taking a slower, more indirect route and taking as long as possible to develop”. This is exactly what happens in many places (certainly not all, to be sure).


Quote:


This is where people have to think out of the box and create more techniques if you will to add to the art's arsenal. Now say a WC man takes these principles and apply them to the ground fight then wouldnt he have made something thats "Wing Chun" styled grappling?? I mean there are only so many ways (actually theres a lot, but there is a limit) the body can be manipulated. So there are bound to be techniques that are the same or very similar to techinques in other arts. But back to the WC grappling. I mean if he created it without outside influence then wouldn't it be still considered a TMA??





The question is, WHY would he need to call it “wing chun grappling”, unless you just happen to like the name wing chun. I have guys practice a jik chun choie from the top guard position or the mount position, but it isn’t wing chun.


It would be TMA if you practice your three forms, your wooden dummy form and your butterfly knives, etc. It would be TMA if you had all the rituals and trappings of the traditional form.

What does traditional mean? Can you have NON traditional wing chun? I don’t see why not! But what’s in a name? It becomes an argument over semantics.

It’s really interesting because, I don’t practice the Wing Chun limb trapping methods but I still use trapping non the less. The methods we use come from a Greco-Roman wrestling approach. Do they still serve the same function? Of course! The objective of trapping hands is to remove or obstruct a limb. Does that happen? Sure it does, and even more effectively IMO. So why aren’t we doing Wing Chun? Because of several factors:

1. We don’t wear a uniform
2. We don’t stand pigeon-toed and do the three forms
3. We don’t work the wooden dummy, etc

TMA really has more to do with forms/kata practice than anything else. You’re talking about an often very fine line that separates TMA from non TMA. Changing a few things around, training more alive, dropping kata for more sparring, etc and you’re doing more non TMA. The difference isn’t much but it’s significant none the less.


Quote:


Yes TMA means training in a traditional manner but its not like its never been battle tested before. And to say that JuJutsu isnt a TMA is kind of wierd to me since its essentially been in the Japanese MA world for centuries.




Again, it’s not much that separates TMA from NON TMA. If you like your forms and rituals, fine. That is what works for YOU. Continue to do that and whatever else makes you happy.

I’m not saying that you can’t become functional through TMA. I just believe that you can become so much faster and, improve to higher levels by dropping the unnecessary stuff from your training. Forms and kata are NOT going to make you a better fighter, regardless of what people tell you. They will tell you ANYTHING.

As far as jiu-jitsu, and specifically Brazilian jiu-jitsu coming from a traditional martial art - I agree! But it doesn’t look ANYTHING like the traditional arts that it comes from anymore. To go into a traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu school and a Brazilian jiu-jitsu school would appear like two completely different worlds - in spite of using nearly identical techniques. So whats the difference? BJJ guys become better at a faster rate than their JJJ counterparts because the methods of training are more functional.

That’s exactly my point here, and is what I’ve been saying for years.


Quote:


Whether or not it formally had a name and organization doesnt mean it didnt exist before. I would say many many MA out there (maybe in the high 90 percentile?) are traditional. Muay Thai is a very traditional thing and has very deep roots in the religion and culture of the Thai people and has been around for thousands of years. Seems pretty traditional to me, whether it is to foreigners and the western world is a different story.





Sure those arts come from a traditional background, but the difference is HOW they train.


Traditional is just a word. Lets not get too caught up in that. You can have traditional MMA. The difference is in how you go about your training.


....now, where were we?



ShikataGaNai - I believe we're not on topic because the topic that's changed is simply a better one.

Things happen. Perhaps if people ask more questions relating to the original topic, they might get answered. Right now there is at least some good conversation going on.


-John

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#269792 - 07/11/06 09:46 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
ShikataGaNai - I believe we're not on topic because the topic that's changed is simply a better one.

It is a good topic, but it's been covered and seriously some people are never gonna get it. I totally appreciate your viewpoint and think that it is highly logical and a good attitude to have towards training.
However, this is the KF forum, this is a WC thread, and yes, let's get some questions going and talk about tactics and techniques that may work well against grappling attacks. Let's think about the benefits and hazards etc.
I've actually been experimenting with this a little. As I've mentioned before, I still train in BJJ and I'm starting to see ways to relate what I learn in WC to it and vice versa. For example: we usually start sitting across from eachother on the mat (don't know if all bjj schools do it like that but think so). The opponents slowly move in and begin setting up an offense. Most of the less experienced students will try to rush in, thinking "oh he's just sitting on his butt so I'll knock him over". I love this one - lately I've taken to using a sort of sitting tan sao/bil sao and as soon as they pass my centerline, I pull guard or try to shrimp out from under the momentum and get their back. I'm trying to adapt this to the better guys, but I'm still a noob with WC so it'll be a while. Haven't tried much of this standing up yet either, although we used to practice variations on the same idea in JKD back in the day.
So, any other ideas?


Edited by ShikataGaNai (07/11/06 10:13 AM)

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#269793 - 07/12/06 04:35 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Tezza Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 775
Loc: Kent, U.K.
Exactly that was the idea of this thread to talk about WC technique.
Although we have changed it to talking about Grappling in general, lets try keeping it the the WC lines.
_________________________
Train Hard Tez WT Central

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#269794 - 07/12/06 11:40 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Tezza]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
OK, let's change the view a bit here. WC versus an incoming grappling attack may have trouble, but what about when on the ground? Oddly enough last night in BJJ, I used Chi Sao quite effectively after being taken down.

I was clinched with the opponent, and went for a takedown. He was able to post his arm out and keep me from getting the mount, but I was able to pull guard. He immediately started going for a collar (gi) choke on me. I was able to parry and trap him repeatedly, until he gave up and attempted to break my guard, where I then started to attack his arms. He responded by going for the collar choke again, which I deflected using Chi Sao. I was actually able to parry his arm so far across his body, that I was able to push on his elbow, and get his arm wrapped all the way around (crossing in front) his own neck. I attempted what I know as a Cobra choke, but couldn't get my other hand behind his head to grab his arm.

Time was called on the round with neither of us getting a submission, but I did feel that I used CS effectively in that situation.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#269795 - 07/12/06 12:53 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Nice work Matt! I was thinking about that the other day in BJJ as well - just with different limbs, the legs. I was on my back, keeping a standing opponent away with leg untangles and it hit me - this is a lot like chi sao! I think there's really something to this with these two applications working together. Very interesting indeed...

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#269796 - 07/12/06 01:43 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: MattJ]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Wing Chun ideas and concepts can be used used in any situation, just like BJJ ideas and concepts or anything else. Its something I want to experiment with when I have time.

The topic went off completely, I would love to hear other Wing Chun strategies for dealing with Those type of attacks.

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