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#269777 - 07/10/06 02:51 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
i guess thats a good way to sum it up skikata
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#269778 - 07/10/06 07:36 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IExcalibui2 wrote
Quote:

I would have to agree and disagree with some of the things said up there, I'll just talk off the top of my head.





Don't do that. This is just getting good. Tell us WHAT you disagree with.

Quote:


is MMA sports a good test of being in a real fight? Yea I would say so, though I mean the rules that are set by UFC, Pride, etc. limit the techniques ever so slightly.





That’s for sure. The thing to understand is that the rules are the SAME FOR EVERYONE, BJJ guys, muay Thai guys, boxers, wrestlers and everyone else. They all have to abide by the rules. BJJ guys can’t fight dirty, big deal. No one can.


Quote:


And that BJJ and Muay Thai have a wierd advantage in the cage. But besides that it is a good way to prepare you for self defense in the street.





Isn’t that a strange thing to say? Have you bothered to ask yourself WHY that is? Really, think about that. WHY is it that those artists tend to stand out? Functional training. Train functionally and you’ll perform well. Don’t and you won’t. I mean, you’ll NEVER see wing chun compound trapping in the UFC. One reason is because of how it’s often trained.

Now go back to what I said in the previous paragraph about how even the BJJ and muay Thai guys have to play by the rules as well? Now, just imagine if they didn’t for a second. You’d have even MORE of an advantage. Let the BJJ be able to gouge, tear, rip, go for the eyes, bite like a piranha and everything else. That isn’t an animal that you want to face. Same goes for a functional muay Thai guy.

Lets leave the bullsh*t (talk of foul tactics) where it needs to say and talk about the performance ability. That matters more than anything. If you cannot perform in one environment, you’re not going to magically be able to in another, just because the “rules are different”. I think that’s fairly important to understand.

And yes, this completely relevant to the thread topic. Just in round a bout sort of way, lol.



Quote:


And just because traditional arts dont hold well in MMA competitions doesnt mean that they dont hold well in reality. In a fight there must always be a winner and loser, but that doesnt mean the loser sucks. I mean Royce Gracie lost to Matt Hughes, but I'm sure Gracie and his BJJ doesnt suck.




Everything is relative. And you’re right, Royce Gracie’s BJJ doesn’t suck at all. In fact, that’s exactly what Hughes was using to beat Gracie with. I don’t know if you realized that or not, but I did. And so did everyone that has been training in BJJ longer than a week. Hughes used a textbook BJJ attack to defeat Gracie. Lets give credit where it’s due.


Quote:


You cant always just say "hey the winner has a better style." No simply he was the better fighter of the two.





I agree with that. But it DOES comes down to how functional one’s training is. Stand there and train kata all day long and I don’t care if you train for a hundred YEARS, you’re not going to do well in a fight against other worthy competitors whose training is more functional and who see more resistive sparring in their training. It’s science and common sense, not myth and fantasy.


Quote:


So a WC man loses to a MMAist. He loses to the individual who trained and practiced the MMA, he didnt necessarily lose to MMA. I'm sure the WC man can find a MMAist out there in this big world of ours that he can defeat in a fight.





Of COURSE he didn’t lose to MMA. MMA isn’t a “style”. I only think that’s been said about a thousand times now. The reason many (not all) MMA guys are so capable is because of the way they train. They don’t do kata, hit wooden dummies or whatever. They’re training with resistance. They’re training with partners. They're constantly working to improve their conditioning, etc. They are using sound, scientific training principles.

I always say the same thing with regard for that argument; the UFC has been in existence for 13 years now. There has been PLENTY of time now for a guy to come forward and claim to be a wing chun guy and win some fights. Boztepe even once claimed that he wasn’t going to fight. He never did as have none of his students. How much longer do we have to wait for that day to come?

You hear everyone saying the same things: “Wing Chun guys train for the STREET, not sport. In the street, there are no rules and they’ll take your HEADS off there” – all while not realizing that at least it’s safe in the cage. In the street, the inability to perform only means that their beatdowns are going to be more costly.

Listen, I’m not saying that there aren’t any functional wing chun guys. I do question their training and, I wonder why so many years have to pass before any of those guys can claim to have won any MMA fights. It’s open to everyone. Perhaps some even have that have had WC backgrounds and only failed to mention that. One thing is for certain; you don’t see any WC technique.


Quote:


Why do traditionalists lose to MMA or BJJ or Muay Thai or whatever guys?? Well they simply didnt train properly and hard enough to prepare themselves for all aspects of a fight.





My point exactly. Lack of functional training is ALWAYS the culprit.


Quote:


Too much one dimensionalism. Like a Boxer, he should definitely practice hand offense and defense, as those are his weapons, but he should also know that there are people out there who kick and grab and throw. So he should prepare himself to block and counter those attacks. Doesnt mean hes crosstrained or went into the path of MMA






Like cross-training is a “bad thing”. Ooooh, don’t tell anyone you … CROSS-TRAINED”, lol God forbid that anyone should training using an MMA approach, right?

DAMN THOSE SPORT GUYS!!!


Quote:

just simply hes expanding his boundaries of Boxing. Taking the principles of Boxing and applying them to other things besides punches.





Which is just common sense. To hell with styles. Focus on intelligent training. That well only serve you better in the end.



Quote:


whew, that was long






No it wasn’t. Trust me on that.




-John

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#269779 - 07/10/06 08:07 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: trevek]
SLW Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 11
Quote:

Been posted before, but this might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk&search=william%20cheung%20




I was always curious about what Yip Man would do in order to defeat a wrestler in that situation. Don't think I'll get the chance to ask him since he has passed on a long time ago.

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#269780 - 07/10/06 12:41 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: JKogas]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Aren't you tired of having the same argument? I am.. thats why I try not to talk about MMA or ground fighting (most of the time).

So lets agree to disagree, You believe MMA is a REAL fight. completely determining the skill and ability for anyone to defend themselves. I believe is a wonderful SPORT, that teaches timing, reaction and many other skills that are essential to defending yourself. I have stated before and I will briefly state again why I feel this way. Rules, RING, preparation, 1 vs 1 , equipment. Also the strategy involved in MMA fighting isn't 100% applicable to the street. Many fights in UFC and other MMA events end with the top opponent winning. Maybe by submission maybe by GnP. People do stand up, but its not a goal. You don't get points for being able to stand back up. The ground isn't a safe position to be, so I personally find most submissions and GnP tactics unrealistic. Sure its likely that someone will GnP you, but I would never train in that strategy.

Again I have taken the middle road, yet you stay hell bent on bring things to extremes. I will agree to disagree.

This started at the sprawl is very useful technique for self-defense. I mentioned that It can be incorporated into someone Wing Chun “tool-kit”. Its not perfect for MMA, but its just about for the most cases.

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#269781 - 07/10/06 01:08 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

This started at the sprawl is very useful technique for self-defense. I mentioned that It can be incorporated into someone Wing Chun “tool-kit”. Its not perfect for MMA, but its just about for the most cases.




Didn't I mention that? Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know - doesn't matter, it was said and it's pretty true.

However, I gotta back JKogas up on the fact that you're missing his point. Again, MMA is a training methodology, not a style or a set way of fighting. People incorporate techniques into MMA all the time, probably even ideas from
WC or JKD (which isn't a style either). The bottom line is that MMA has you doing chinese pushups, jacknifes, sprawls on the floor, weight training, shooting while strapped to the wall by your arms with rubber cords, etc. etc.
MOST TMA schools do not use this kind of training and their students suffer from lack of strength, agility, cardio flexibility whatever. Until you get SO GOOD at WC that you can use without thinking, you need to train yourself for performance. That's all he's saying, period. If you don't want to train hard like that, fine. I do. I also meditate and play chi sao. Just think of it this way - if WC or any other art is your toolkit, MMA training is a great way to sharpen those tools. There really is no argument there. Besides, training is much more fun when you can go full bore and not get winded after 2 minutes

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#269782 - 07/10/06 03:50 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Monji -

Quote:

You believe MMA is a REAL fight. completely determining the skill and ability for anyone to defend themselves. I believe is a wonderful SPORT






Did you actually read anything that JKogas wrote? MMA is not just sport - it is a training methodology that can be applied to anything. Including the vaunted foul tactics. You seem to be fixated on the UFC and MMA competition, but you can train MMA for self defense just as easily. What makes you think that MMA people wouldn't pull out the throat shots and eye boinks if push came to shove?

Really under-estimating here. It is not "taking the middle road" when you are INCORRECTLY attempting to put MMA people in a box.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#269783 - 07/10/06 04:13 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Yeah, especially because they come in an octagon!

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#269784 - 07/10/06 04:38 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Yeah, especially because they come in an octagon!




LMAO!!
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#269785 - 07/10/06 05:01 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

Did you actually read anything that JKogas wrote?



Yes all of it
Quote:

MMA is not just sport - it is a training methodology that can be applied to anything.



well yes and no. That really depends on what you consider MMA and how you are applying it. If you are talking about using what works and training logically and effectively. Sure but thats not MMA, thats common sense.
Quote:

You seem to be fixated on the UFC and MMA competition, but you can train MMA for self defense just as easily.



well again thats true if you add self defense styles to your mix, not if you use MMA geared for Tournament fighting. See really it still comes down to the basic concept that we Disagree with. I read all the comments and I understand were you are coming from. if you are going to start talking about Mixing styles like Krav or something similar then sure MMA is great for self-defense.
Quote:

Really under-estimating here. It is not "taking the middle road" when you are INCORRECTLY attempting to put MMA people in a box



well they are two different topics.
I will define MMA in general the way most MMA fighters define it. The General public and Most magazines and MMA "fighters" define it by the rules of Pride,UFC,IFL ect..
Thats fine with me, I love MMA. I have enjoyed watching Pride/UFC for a long time. I am very happy about IFL.

I am in the middle, because at one end you have people who believe in only 1 style. Which I understand their logic, and it makes sense. On the other side you have people who believe in training as many styles as they can learn effectively. I also follow their logic, I am in the middle. I train at a traditional school, were 1 style is pushed at a very intense training regimen. But, when I have some free time I plan to start another style. But, really only as a compliment not as a equal. So really I am in the middle.

Again if you define MMA not as UFC/PRIDE style of fighting, then its PERFECT for self-defense. But that can be said about ANY style including traditional styles. For example a Karate player can be just as effective as a MMA fighter if you apply the same training methodology. You don't per say need to MIX styles to be "effective". Thats another point that we Disagree on, but again I understand both sides. I believe strongly is hard training. Training using real speed and real strength. I believe strongly is cardio and weight lifting. I do hard sparring on a normal basis. I have and use my heavy bag, speed bag, jump rope ect.. At my school we train for muscle memory so we are constantly doing fighting drills. I am constantly sparring with other styles like Muy thai and boxing. Sure I don't always do so hot, but I always give people a run for their money . I view it as a learning experience.

Maybe I don't come from a "normal" traditional martial art school.. but then you are putting traditional martial arts in a box.

Again you can train in a traditional martial art and use effective, scientific training. Its not Mixing if you train effectively. Its just common sense. Really This has been done since Ip man, and its a normal in my style.

I don't train in william chung/leung ting/ moy yat/Boztepe/Fung or probably any other Wing chun teacher you have heard of. Its the people you don't hear about that you always have to worry about.


Edited by monji112000 (07/10/06 05:03 PM)

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#269786 - 07/10/06 05:14 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA

Waiting for this thread to return to topic...

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