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#269767 - 07/09/06 10:15 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Tezza]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
There are multiple ways to counter a shoot and there are other ways to take someone down other than the shoot. Study what it is that your opponent is doing in detail. What works as a counter to his approach? When you have figured that out, train it till it becomes yours.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#269768 - 07/09/06 01:40 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Fisherman]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Been posted before, but this might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdF1nIAfpk&search=william%20cheung%20
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#269769 - 07/09/06 05:06 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: trevek]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Ah, GAWD! NOT THAT CLIP!!!!
I swear, if I have to see that thing one more time...

Dude, there's volumes on this fight on bullshido.com, where it belongs.

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#269770 - 07/09/06 05:28 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
I'm pretty sure that monji wanted to say that a real good martial artists in one art can defend himself against another person of a different martial art. Honestly if someone is good enough to win fights it doesnt mean that they necessarily train MMA. If someone is quick and strong enough to beat someone to the punch then they'll take the fight, doesnt matter what "style". Its not like its impossible for a MMAist to lose to someone who trained in only 1 art.

No art out there is ultimate traditional or MMA or otherwise. its the artists that hold the power not the art
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#269771 - 07/09/06 05:36 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
hee hee hee
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#269772 - 07/09/06 07:18 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: trevek]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
as I said I don't like to debate if MMA fighting is a “real” fight.
Its a silly argument, You can logically look at both sides and see what makes sense.

Yes its a Great way to gain experience, but its not REAL. Many MMA fighters get hurt in real life and many Good MA fighters suck at MMA.
Why isn't it just a sport? Because it has rules, its a sanctioned fight in a ring between two people who have been training for some time. Self-defense isn't. Being raped can't be compared to MMA fighting. YES IT DOES A VERY GOOD JOB OF PREPARING YOU FOR ANY ASPECT OF FIGHTING. BUT its not a good test of a fighter.
Krav Maga is a perfect example of what I am talking about. It works very well ( I have seen it first hand in ISREAL). BUT its not that good for MMA. Any person who does Krav and goes into MMA normally traines wrestling and Thi boxing.
MMA fighting is training for a tournament. Preparing for a situation of being mugged isn't the same. I could go into it all day. You would say it is.. and that fine but I must disagree. Its great training but don't think you are prepared for self-defense.
Why is it a sport? Because IT HAS RULES! It is “safe”. Thats why people do MMA Because the not many people die. Thats what makes it so wonderful, I can use it to gain experience without getting too hurt or hurting my opponent that much.
Go out of black and white , I am not saying that MMA isn't useful.
Please don't challenge me. I don't fight for fun and I don't fight fare. You are welcome to train with me on friendly basis. I respect all arts and fighters. I am only asking you to be realistic, stop thinking your style (MMA) is better then everyone elses. Better is relative , What makes something Good is relative, and what makes something a “sport” is relative also.
am I a good fighter NO.
I don't have the timing or the reaction yet.
Sorry.
No I don't really speak with Big words, I am just being honest. Just Because I have faith in my style doesn't make em cocky.
Yes Gracie JJ has been “proven” in the UFC but UFC isn't a 100% representation of a fight. Its a good way to gain experience though.
Yah I have seen the William Cheung fight with Boztepeze. Both fighters really.. arn't much to talk about.
All I said was that MMA doesn't mean you are a good fighter or that you can defend yourself given a real situation.
I don't claim to have the perfect style or to be the perfect fighter. I am simply saying that Its the fighter not the style. A good Wing Chun fighter should be able to hand any situation. Just like a good Thai fighter or BJJ fighter. You are just looking to bash Traditional Martial arts Because they don't bow down to MMA and say YOU ARE THE BEST MMA FIGHTERS YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE ANYWERE ANYTIME. Its simply not true. Don't think it is. MMA fighter is clueless when a gun is pointed at them or when they are being raped.

Its impossible to talk about ground fighting without this stupid argument over and over again. Arn't you tired of replaying it? YES NO WING CHUN fighter has really done well in MMA. Its going to stay that way. Thai fighters are probably the “best” fighters, and they don't really do that well.

the funny thing is I have always said cross train, but don't fool yourself by saying that everything is equal.

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#269773 - 07/09/06 08:19 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
monji112000 wrote
Quote:

as I said I don't like to debate if MMA fighting is a “real” fight.
Its a silly argument, You can logically look at both sides and see what makes sense.




You’re absolutely right. It most definitely is a real fight. I mean, how could anyone not agree?


Quote:


Yes its a Great way to gain experience, but its not REAL.





It’s not real in what way?

As far as I’m concerned, it’s real. Lets see:

*Both fighters are trying to knock each other out (among other things).
*Both fighters are resisting each other 100 percent.

Yep, seems real to ME. What’s not real about it? That they aren’t using weapons? Doesn’t make it any less real! They are still trying to hurt each other, and as long as that’s the case, it’s real bro. Deal with that. No it isn’t a street fight, but its not “fake” either if you see my point.

I realize we’re talking semantics. But you need to understand that those cage fights are “point sparring” contests.



Quote:


Why isn't it just a sport? Because it has rules, its a sanctioned fight in a ring between two people who have been training for some time.




MMA is just an form of training man. “IT” doesn’t have rules. The UFC has rules. Pride has rules. MMA doesn’t. It’s just training. That’s the point I’m trying to make (and that others have made). Try to see that please. That’s all I will ask of you.


Quote:


Self-defense isn't. Being raped can't be compared to MMA fighting.




No one is doubting that, lol! That’s for certain. But I don’t know if anyone is really making that claim either. Certainly not myself.



Quote:


YES IT DOES A VERY GOOD JOB OF PREPARING YOU FOR ANY ASPECT OF FIGHTING. BUT its not a good test of a fighter.





I have to disagree. I think that MMA style sparring/fighting is perhaps the best sort of test there is because it allows you to understand and face the “pressure” of real fighting. The intensity is what makes it so real. And it’s that intensity that is the doing-in of most martial artists. Most folks never even come CLOSE to having to deal with that level of intensity within their training environments.

Just wrestle around at 100 percent for about two minutes. A great majority of people (without the grappling background) will be completely gassed and have no idea how to deal with it. That fact ALONE is an adequate test of a fighters capacity.

Bottom line is; without immersing yourself within that adrenaline-laced environment against your peers (people of your own skill level or above), you will never adequately test yourself. You have to get as close to the edge as possible and there is no better or safer way than MMA. Period.

What in your opinion, is a BETTER test?


Quote:


Krav Maga is a perfect example of what I am talking about. It works very well ( I have seen it first hand in ISREAL). BUT its not that good for MMA. Any person who does Krav and goes into MMA normally trains wrestling and Thi boxing.




Krav Maga is the latest, flavor of the month. Just another “style” in a long line of “combative” styles - no better or worse than anything else.

Right now KM is making a lot of people a lot of money. That alone is enough to question it. Besides, you’re not even guaranteed the chance to spar in every KM session. You’re often just learning more “techniques” against compliant resistance.

Its no WONDER KM guys would have to go outside of their style to learn and train effectly for competing within MMA.


Quote:


MMA fighting is training for a tournament.




You’re starting your whole argument from a false premise. Do you know what that means? It means that everything that follows will be false as well. You should bother to do your research before coming here to debate a point.


Quote:


Preparing for a situation of being mugged isn't the same. I could go into it all day. You would say it is.. and that fine but I must disagree. Its great training but don't think you are prepared for self-defense.
Why is it a sport? Because IT HAS RULES!





Once again (please slow down, read, and contemplate what is being said):

MMA is just training. The UFC has rules. Pride has rules. MMA is not an event. It is a training vehicle. OK? This is the last post in which I will debate with you if you don’t get it now. Take the time. Ask questions. Just don’t be so biased that it blinds you.



Quote:

That’s why people do MMA Because the not many people die. That’s what makes it so wonderful, I can use it to gain experience without getting too hurt or hurting my opponent that much.
Go out of black and white , I am not saying that MMA isn't useful.





I understand YOUR point, but you don’t understand mine. Please make the effort to do so.

Quote:


Please don't challenge me. I don't fight for fun and I don't fight fare. You are welcome to train with me on friendly basis.





No one is challenging you to “death match” kid. I’m merely offering to challenge your beliefs and paradigms.




Quote:


I respect all arts and fighters. I am only asking you to be realistic, stop thinking your style (MMA) is better then everyone else’s. Better is relative , What makes something Good is relative, and what makes something a “sport” is relative also. Am I a good fighter NO. I don't have the timing or the reaction yet.





Stop being paranoid. I’m not after you to hurt you. I’m making the offer of training and friendly sparring. No one has to get hurt. No one has to do anything they don’t want to do. We’re not talking about putting people into hospitals. It’s about “play” and trials by fire. The offer stands. I just think you need to get around a little more than you have. You’ve got some learning to do.



Quote:


No I don't really speak with Big words, I am just being honest. Just Because I have faith in my style doesn't make em cocky.





You’d better have some faith in yourself than in your style bro. Your “style” isn’t going to do your fighting for you.


Quote:


Yes Gracie JJ has been “proven” in the UFC but UFC isn't a 100% representation of a fight.





It’s been proven in fights, both in the cage and the street. Many times, many places and by many people.


Quote:


Yah I have seen the William Cheung fight with Boztepeze. Both fighters really.. arn't much to talk about.
All I said was that MMA doesn't mean you are a good fighter or that you can defend yourself given a real situation.





It’s subjective and relative. I’d say that if you’re a good fighter, then you’re a good fighter. It’s all about the ability to perform. Do you not think that Andrei Arlovski could defend himself on the street against a drunk? What about Matt Hughes or Georges St. Pierre? Do you know what their backgrounds are? What did you think, that they just came in from recess period? Those guys have been MARTIAL ARTISTS!

What do you think the three letters, MMA means? It means, Mixed Martial Arts. What does that tell you?


Quote:


I don't claim to have the perfect style or to be the perfect fighter. I am simply saying that Its the fighter not the style.




You seem to be saying the exact opposite many times.


Quote:


A good Wing Chun fighter should be able to hand any situation. Just like a good Thai fighter or BJJ fighter. You are just looking to bash Traditional Martial arts Because they don't bow down to MMA and say YOU ARE THE BEST MMA FIGHTERS YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE ANYWERE ANYTIME.





Dude, take-a-freakin'-powder and relax. MMA fighters don’t even beat each OTHER all the time so, how can they beat anyone, anytime, anywhere? MMA isn’t style junior, it’s the way you train. And for the last time, that doesn’t have JACK SH*T to do with rules.


Quote:


MMA fighter is clueless when a gun is pointed at them or when they are being raped.





Would you mind telling me what OTHER martial arts stylist wouldn’t be clueless when having a gun pointed at their head?

I also doubt that you’re going to see Tim Sylvia being raped anytime soon. Geezuz, his own WIFE probably wouldn’t do that, lol.

But you’re missing the point. In fact, you’re probably still in high school and are so horned-up that you can’t think straight anyway. Let me know if I’m off base.


Quote:


Its impossible to talk about ground fighting without this stupid argument over and over again.






You know something? You’re damned RIGHT about that. And you know what else? That isn’t MY damned fault at all. I’ve done MY time here bro, doing my damnedest to try and shed some light on this whole freaking sport vs. street issue. You’re right, it IS a dead argument that, YOU STILL DON’T GET.


Quote:


Arn't you tired of replaying it?





Does the expression “HELL NO” mean anything to you? I’ve been here for over three years and I’ve not tired yet. I’m even less tired than I used to be because I don’t really give a rats ass if you people get it anymore or not. I know the truth and the other intelligent folks I talk with here, and with whom I train, DO as well. That’s all that matters to me.






Quote:


YES NO WING CHUN fighter has really done well in MMA. Its going to stay that way.





And do you know why that is? I can tell you right here: An often profound LACK of “functional” training.



Quote:

Thai fighters are probably the “best” fighters, and they don't really do that well.





Wow! The best fighters and they don’t do that well. Go ponder THAT logic. The better fighters don’t do well. Is that Zen riddle or something? I can’t figure that one out for the life of me.

Listen kid, the “best” fighters are the ones who can perform the best. Performance ability, is performance ability, regardless of “where” it happens to be. If a person is not winning much, its because he cannot perform well. Don’t accept any other bullsh*t excuses.




-John

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#269774 - 07/09/06 10:29 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Tezza]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Firstly I am not trying to make a flame war I am just trying to get a WC/WT view on it and also to start a new thread of interest. I have trained in this area, although I would like to hear your views on it.
So with all that talk on WT/WC vs. MMA, what do you think is the best way to respond to a wrestling or shoot fighting attack from a wing chun perspective?




Boy has this gone in the wrong direction already.

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#269775 - 07/10/06 01:44 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
geez yes it is shikata

I would have to agree and disagree with some of the things said up there, I'll just talk off the top of my head.

is MMA sports a good test of being in a real fight? Yea I would say so, though I mean the rules that are set by UFC, Pride, etc. limit the techniques ever so slightly. And that BJJ and Muay Thai have a wierd advantage in the cage. But besides that it is a good way to prepare you for self defense in the street. You build up reaction time and your body's capabilities (speed, strength, what not).

And just because traditional arts dont hold well in MMA competitions doesnt mean that they dont hold well in reality. In a fight there must always be a winner and loser, but that doesnt mean the loser sucks. I mean Royce Gracie lost to Matt Hughes, but I'm sure Gracie and his BJJ doesnt suck. You cant always just say "hey the winner has a better style." No simply he was the better fighter of the two. You cant compare him to other people he hasnt faced. So a WC man loses to a MMAist. He loses to the individual who trained and practiced the MMA, he didnt necessarily lose to MMA. I'm sure the WC man can find a MMAist out there in this big world of ours that he can defeat in a fight. Same could be said about a Shaolin man, Karate man, Capoeira man, whatever man against another styled guy.

Why do traditionalists lose to MMA or BJJ or Muay Thai or whatever guys?? Well they simply didnt train properly and hard enough to prepare themselves for all aspects of a fight. Too much one dimensionalism. Like a Boxer, he should definitely practice hand offense and defense, as those are his weapons, but he should also know that there are people out there who kick and grab and throw. So he should prepare himself to block and counter those attacks. Doesnt mean hes crosstrained or went into the path of MMA, just simply hes expanding his boundaries of Boxing. Taking the principles of Boxing and applying them to other things besides punches.

whew, that was long
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#269776 - 07/10/06 02:28 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Right! Once AGAIN, peeps - toolkits. Our skills are our TOOLKITS. Use a wrench to take a nut off. Use a spanner to remove a lockring. Use a hammer to pound a nail. It's up to you to recognize the obstacle and choose the right tool to best deal with it. Any MA worth it's salt does nothing more than give you the tools. Everything else is up to you.

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