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#269757 - 07/07/06 04:35 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Sorry for not being clear. I guess I was referring to the post WWII rooftop fight days in HK, which really wasn't Ip Man's time - he was probably beyond that. Most of what I was referring to came from the writings of Hawkins Cheung from old issues of BB and IKF.

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#269758 - 07/07/06 05:04 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
monji112000 Offline
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Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkzZZ10xd5c&search=sprawl%20
I am not a big fan of Frank. BUT what he is saying in this clip is the same thing We practice am my school for when someone is pushing hard with Chi sao. We will also pull thats te only change. This is my point.. you can use or find similar ideas everywere.

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#269759 - 07/08/06 03:51 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Monji, great video

the idea behind Shamrock's clip is something so fundamental to many many MA. Though sprawling is a good technique to know, it follows this principle. Redirect the force somewhere else. So its not the techniques that the WC man or Hung Gar man or whatever man needs to know, its the principle behind the techniques. Once you unlock the principle then 10 megatrillion-thousand moves will be open to you (amount of a rough estimate). A WC man can definitely defeat a a grappling artist..he just needs to know how to move his body, redirection, and setting himself up for attacks. He doesnt necessarily have to cross train inorder to beat his opponent.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#269760 - 07/08/06 08:53 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: IExcalibui2]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
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There are four lines of defense to a takedown. Sprawling is the last of them.

They are preceded by hands, elbows and head position (level change). The sprawl is after those. A competent wrestler is going to shoot only after clearing those lines of defense.

A Greco-Roman wrestler won't likely shoot at ALL, but they still do excellent takedowns.

Just trying to make a point that the sprawl is not the be-all, end-all of takedown defense. As a grappler, the LAST thing I would do to take someone down is change level and shoot from an outside position with no set-up or tie-up.

The problem that I'm seeing is that 99% of the non-wrestling crowd thinks that the shot is the only way of taking someone down.



-John

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#269761 - 07/08/06 10:23 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: JKogas]
Tezza Offline
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Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 775
Loc: Kent, U.K.
Some interesting views Im glad I started this topic
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#269762 - 07/08/06 02:23 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: JKogas]
kusojiji Offline
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Registered: 09/28/03
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Quote:

The problem that I'm seeing is that 99% of the non-wrestling crowd thinks that the shot is the only way of taking someone down.



-John




And more recently, the idea that just saying the word "sprawl" immediately makes them takedown-proof.
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#269763 - 07/08/06 05:04 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: kusojiji]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
its a good point that shooting for the legs isn't the only way that people get taken to the ground. The same assumption can be made that MMA training is the goal for everyone. Sure saying anything doesn't make anything happen. Saying that a fighter that can't do well in MMA can't do well in a fight doesn't make it true either.

Be realistic.
the methods,goals and tactics are not the same for self-defense and MMA fighting.

I would say that Every Wing Chun fighter I have trained with trains for self-defense not MMA fighting. I don't care to argue the difference or the importance of the two. You can use common sense to figure that one out.

I follow the school of thought that mastering 5 techniques that work 90% very well, is better than learning 3 systems of martial art that claim to be the “best”.

You have to wonder who has the time to master so many techniques and arts. Sure if you are a Pro fighter thats great.. but most people aren't. I know many people who have it in their heart to train 6 hours a day 5 days a week. BUT can't because of monetary,social, medical reasons ect..

Don't think by me saying the word sprawl I am suddenly saying that someone needs to train anything other that Wing Chun. theirs a reason why Ip man never thought this subject. A good Wing Chun fighter can handle anyone, no matter the style. JMO Wing Chun isn't lacking its the practitioners who are lacking.

I stand by the idea that learning and training a good sprawl and knee for shoots. Other methods of taking someone to the ground are covered in Proper distance, timing, striking and A quality horse.
JMO

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#269764 - 07/08/06 06:57 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
monji112000 wrote:
Quote:

its a good point that shooting for the legs isn't the only way that people get taken to the ground. The same assumption can be made that MMA training is the goal for everyone.




It wasn't an assumption.


Quote:


Be realistic.
the methods,goals and tactics are not the same for self-defense and MMA fighting.




Why not? Why do you see MMA as just a “sport”? Why can’t it be a training paradigm as it is with Burton Richardson’s Jeet Kune Do Unlimited? They use MMA as another vehicle, so to speak, to develop their self-defense ability. Training for MMA is merely training for high performance. Wouldn’t high performance be a goal for just about anyone?


Quote:


I would say that Every Wing Chun fighter I have trained with trains for self-defense not MMA fighting. I don't care to argue the difference or the importance of the two. You can use common sense to figure that one out.





I don’t see a difference. I think common sense leads me to understand that MMA training is just training throughout all ranges. You don’t have to train for specific rules if you’re training MMA. That would be something that you’d have to bear in mind if your goal was to compete. But what about others who train but don’t compete and just do so for the development of skill? I don’t see where MMA training automatically means SPORT.


Quote:


I follow the school of thought that mastering 5 techniques that work 90% very well, is better than learning 3 systems of martial art that claim to be the “best”.




I don’t think it’s always about learning three systems. Its more like working to master one while you supplement your training in others. I just see it as learning to use all available tools and, to develop those tools at the best of one’s ability. I think those are worthy and noble goals.


Quote:


You have to wonder who has the time to master so many techniques and arts. Sure if you are a Pro fighter thats great.. but most people aren't. I know many people who have it in their heart to train 6 hours a day 5 days a week. BUT can't because of monetary,social, medical reasons ect..





You’d only need to train that long if you were a pro fighter though. You can train anywhere from 4 to 6 hours a WEEK and still get some great training in.

Perhaps you don’t fully understand what MMA is or, what it means. Its is simple a method of training where nothing it considered out of bounds. In other words, if you’re practicing striking, your partners can work to take you down and continue your training from that point. Kind of like a real fight in that there is continuous action. You learn to develop that “flow” state. It’s just good, solid training and it’s also fun as hell. At least that’s what most people think after they have been properly introduced to it.


Quote:


Don't think by me saying the word sprawl I am suddenly saying that someone needs to train anything other that Wing Chun. theirs a reason why Ip man never thought this subject. A good Wing Chun fighter can handle anyone, no matter the style. JMO Wing Chun isn't lacking its the practitioners who are lacking.





Wow! A good wing chun fighter can handle ANYONE?! That’s a mighty big statement bro. Are you sure about that?

Are you a “good wing chun fighter”? If so, can you back your words up? If you’re not a “good wing chun fighter”, do you know of anyone that IS, because I don’t. I’ve not met one yet that was worth a crap to in my opinion. Maybe there are just a lot of people are “are lacking” (to use your words).

If you can find any that aren’t lacking, send ‘em my way.


Quote:


I stand by the idea that learning and training a good sprawl and knee for shoots. Other methods of taking someone to the ground are covered in Proper distance, timing, striking and A quality horse.
JMO




Yeah, A good horse to ride like hell away on, right?

Where are you located kid? I would LOVE to train with you sometime. You speak with big, TALL words.


-John

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#269765 - 07/08/06 08:34 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Monji -

Quote:

A good Wing Chun fighter can handle anyone, no matter the style. JMO Wing Chun isn't lacking its the practitioners who are lacking.




I am surprised to see this kind of attitude still around these days. The UFC has proven that there are no single styles that are not lacking something. Hell, even Gracie Jujitsu itself has been proven to have holes in it.

It's fine to love your style, but don't let that love blind you. MMA does not equal sport - it is a training methodology that can be applied to anything.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#269766 - 07/08/06 11:39 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: MattJ]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Uh, guys - just before anyone gets on a "WC sucks" kick, please keep in mind that there are progressive schools of it out there and we're not all out to prove that it is complete. My instructor says the same thing as my MMA instructors did - if you can't make it your own, you got nothing. WC is a toolkit, that's it. Again, it's the practitioner, not the art.

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