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#269747 - 07/07/06 06:59 AM WT vs. grappling attack
Tezza Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 775
Loc: Kent, U.K.
Firstly I am not trying to make a flame war I am just trying to get a WC/WT view on it and also to start a new thread of interest. I have trained in this area, although I would like to hear your views on it.
So with all that talk on WT/WC vs. MMA, what do you think is the best way to respond to a wrestling or shoot fighting attack from a wing chun perspective?
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#269748 - 07/07/06 08:22 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Tezza]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Do you use elbows or knees? That may be a good start.
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#269749 - 07/07/06 08:35 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Fisherman]
Tezza Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 775
Loc: Kent, U.K.
Yes definately a lot of elbow work is done. I have studied the basic grappling work done in Wing Chun I was just interested to see what others do in the circumstances and what has worked best for them.
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#269750 - 07/07/06 09:59 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Tezza]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
knees and sprawl.

for very crisp low shoots sprawl.
If you feel like you can knee then knee hard and fast.
I have seen other variations using a fook sao ect..
Sprawl isn't really WC, but you can use WC ideas. like push/pull, low center, ect..

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#269751 - 07/07/06 10:06 AM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: Tezza]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I agree with monji on this one - even my sifu says that WC has a lot of answers but not all of them. Developing a good sprawl is definitely the easiest way to defend a take down. And since it puts your attacker horizontally upside down and under you, you can attack the back of the head/spine with all sorts of nasty tricks.

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#269752 - 07/07/06 03:00 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SLW Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/07/06
Posts: 11
I'm arrived at this topic kinda late. Does anyone have a picture of a what a sprawl is?I'm not quite sure what it is and would like to know.

I have seen a video of a cage(not really a cage just locked a on all sides ring) fight in which the judo fighter immediately went for the tackle on the WC fighter and failed to bring him down until the WC fighter lifted his leg to kick thus disrupting his own balance and fell. The Judo guy kept punching and the WC guy tapped out in no time.

Being a WC student(just completed siu lim tao), I always wanted to think of ways not to end up in this situation. Is side stepping or jumping over his shoulder by stepping on it when he goes for a takedown a useful move?

Or if we sucessfully predict that he is gonna use a takedown(which he does eventually) will trying to use the centreline theory by locating our foot in the middle of his groin beforehand then repeatedly kicking it work?

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#269753 - 07/07/06 03:26 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: SLW]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Check this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asL8eVM2wPw&search=wrestling

At 0:10 seconds in, the guy in blue shoots in for a takedown. The guy in black/red does a sprawl to counter, driving the guy in blue to the floor.
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#269754 - 07/07/06 03:41 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: SLW]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
I donít think you will have time normally to jump over the person. Really basic wrestling skills I think are very important for any style. (Thatís why I am going to cross train when I get time in wrestling).


Some clips of sprawls
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDQcTubBlFM&search=sprawl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccaEYUTIHSk&search=sprawl

I heard of also someone doing something similar to a sprawl with a Wing Chun horse. Donít really know much about wrestling. From what people have shown me the basic idea is drop your weight fast and spread your legs. The main point is to push as much down and forward as possible (mostly down). He has to carry your whole body weight and maybe you can even push with your horse. I have seen people setup for basic neck chokes and knees to the head from the sprawl. I strongly believe you can take the ideas in SLT and other parts of Wing chun and apply them here as in any place in fighting.
Forexample :
I havnít experimented with this but I am sure you can use the proper WC horse body mechanics for the sprawl. Also A good fook sao could be used or a gum sao. Ect.. I havnít really messed with this that much but I think itís a good cover for a low shoot.

If the shoot isnít low (most are lazy) then I feel comfortable kneeing.

The only way to really be able to handle something like this is to learn how to shoot properly and train it over and over again. Different speeds , levels ect..

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#269755 - 07/07/06 04:02 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: SLW]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
With all the interest in ring fighting, most likely due to UFC/Pride, it really is important to cross train. As much as some people would have you believe, WC is not a a pure "style", but is much more a toolkit. Just like when you work on a car - you use a wrench when you need a wrench, not a screwdriver. Shooting did not play into much ring or street combat back in Ip Man's day - those guys were worried enough with Karate, which subsequently Hawkins Cheung cross trained in for the very reason that he wanted to beat karateka. "My technique is your technique" is probably the smartest thing Bruce ever said and it is exemplary of WC theory. Right now WC seems to be in some sort of danger of becoming a dead art because attempts at proving it's ring effectiveness have been futile. I don't think it's the art, but the wrong people representing it. Incorporating a sprawl into your bag of tricks is as good as mandatory these days - there's no reason to argue that it isn't WC. WC is about getting the job done in a quick, economical and direct fashion, right?
My sifu was training vale tudo fighters in WC for a while and he admits that when adapted to the ring, it is cut down to about 50% of it's material. In fact, outside of tan sao, gan sao, bong sao, pak sao (i think) and chain punching, the rest is anything goes.
On the "street" (hate that term), shooting is ill advised and if someone did, sprawl and get back on your feet to end the fight or run. Of course on the street, fightin is ill advised altogether.

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#269756 - 07/07/06 04:27 PM Re: WT vs. grappling attack [Re: ShikataGaNai]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Well it depends on who you are talking about in when you say Ip man's time. Ip man had many students and also closed door disciples.
I know of 2 Disciples that have trained hard against Thai Fighters. They have had a great deal of success. I know of one that focused more of Law enforcement, and self defense.

Just because the 3 most famous students of Ip man didn't do something doesn't mean everyone didn't. Don't think that the perspective of Leung ting, William Cheung and Moy Yat are the only perspectives.
Most of the people who learned to apply Wing Chun, are not known to 95% of Wing Chun Practitioners. Humility is a large reason, among others.

From what I understand Ip man believed in Abstract ideas. He tailored the abstract around each person (or the ones he wanted to teach). So if you understand the abstract then you can apply it differently.

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