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#269437 - 07/05/06 11:47 AM Yonkyo
Shepster Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: UK
Not sure if any of the regulars in this section have any Aikido experience, but the closest I have come to the application of pressure points in practice is the wrist control Yonkyo.

For the uninitiated, this is a wrist hold designed such that the inside knuckle of your first finger rests on a spot about a hand-width's up on your "victims" arm from his hand, on the thumb-side of the wrist just on the inside from the bone.

Well-delivered, this generates excruciating pain.

My question is whether this is a spot recognised by "pressure-point" literate students - if so, what else is there to know about it - I'm interested to know whether TCM or pressure-point oriented approaches could add anything to my relatively mechnical implementation of the technique.

cheers

Shep
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#269438 - 07/05/06 12:29 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Shepster]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Small Intestine 5 is a release point for the wrist that can be used with Yonkyo and I've had some pretty nasty fire/metal stuff done on my poor little girlie wrists. Yon I sure wristtwister will have a hell of a lot more to say on the subject though!

Gav

Edit: Forgot to mention the metal part! Have play with Large Intestine 3 aswell... firing this two in together will give you that fire/metal ouchy sensation that'll make you drop like a rock!


Edited by Gavin (07/05/06 12:33 PM)
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#269439 - 07/05/06 12:46 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
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Gav -

Could you give a example of what you mean by "firing this two in together"? Do you mean they should be hit simultaneously or in combination?
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#269440 - 07/05/06 12:59 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
When you grab you squeeze them in together. You can actually do this do yourself. Hold your hand, fingers together, palm down with your thumb sticking out. Now do the same with the right hand only have it palm facing up. Now slide you right hand under the left with the fingers of the right hand pointing out of the radial side of the left hand so that slot nicely together. If you squeeze you should able to cover both SI5 and LI3. Tilting the right hand forward will compress you left wrist on the radial side amd cause a bit more pain. Add some complex torgue (a spiral in or just a simple circle) will take the pain even further.

That's probably the worst possible explanation ever... Sorry!
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#269441 - 07/05/06 01:09 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Gavin]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Heh. Looking at the chart for the Si5 point, I thought it was on the jaw.
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#269442 - 07/05/06 01:12 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: MattJ]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
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Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Look at the picture on the left you muppet... the big white arrow gives it away! It's on the radial edge of the wrist. Either that or you're gonna need bloody big hands to cover a point on the hand and one on the head!
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#269443 - 07/05/06 05:54 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Gavin]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I discussed this on another thread some time ago (#15849646 ) and gave "non-kyusho" instructions about doing yonkyo. I don't like to "cross over" the discussion between hitting Points x and y and aikido technique because they are done off differing theories of execution.

Where the kyusho version of it is hitting metal and fire points simultaneously, the idea of aikido application is extending ki into the radial nerve. If you "support the elbow", it traps the energy at the point of application and gives the uke the heartwarming feeling that brings tears to their eyes...

I love yonkyo... it's my favorite nerve technique... that's where I got my nickname "Dr. Pain"

If you follow the instructions in that previous thread, you can squeeze your forefinger and thumb against the wrist and do a perfect "kyusho" technique (especially at the heart meridian side) of the wrist.

Squeeze slowly... and enjoy...

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#269444 - 07/05/06 08:28 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yonkyo (tekubi shime) can be done on many places, but is more commonly an attack on the radial nerve 1 "cun" (approx 1") up from LU7 toward LU6.

SI3 is on the distal branch of the ulna nerve. If you're talking about an SI3/LI3 combo, it would be more applicable to nikyo and sankyo.

You can use yonkyo to attack the ulna nerve, but I would use the "point" approx 1 "cun" up from H4...

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#269445 - 07/06/06 05:23 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Doh! Could you tell I'm not a Akidoka? Could you also tell that I'm having major difficulties with my anatomy in my Shiatsu studies and continually being the dunce of the theory classes? Luckily I've got another two and a half years before my A & P exam. Very very lucky!

Cheers for the correction mate... just goes to show where the holes in my knowledge are, I know where to squeeze but buggered if I could tell you what I'm squeezing!
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#269446 - 07/06/06 11:13 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Gavin]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
LOL @ Gavin

re: squeezing... as long as you don't have to chew your arm off after!

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#269447 - 07/06/06 12:58 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Gavin,
roll that index finger knuckle on top of the radial nerve and you can create "foot movements"... good pressure will make them dance like nothing you've seen before...

... they seem to get "taller" too...

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#269448 - 07/07/06 05:39 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: eyrie]
Shepster Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: UK
Quote:

Yonkyo (tekubi shime) can be done on many places, but is more commonly an attack on the radial nerve 1 "cun" (approx 1") up from LU7 toward LU6.




Firstly thanks for all the excellent replies and contributions. I'm surprised, though, at the points you are referring to. I'm used to the Yonkyo "pain point" being about a hand-width's up the arm from the wrist crease which is a bit further north than the points you mention.

Using the excellent site Gavin linked to, the nearest "official" pressure points I can see to the spot I'm talking about are LU6 and LI7.

So I guess two questions - firstly does that look like the Yonkyo spot to anyone else?

Secondly a more general question - whether its for Yonkyo or not, the two spots I've outlined are very close to each other but on different meridians (I hope I've got the terminology right). Is that useful at all - does being able to manipulate two different points with one pressure add anything? I'm interested in whether this might explain why Yonkyo is quite as Bl**dy painful as it is when correctly applied.

thanks all

Shep
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#269449 - 07/07/06 06:21 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Shepster]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

... I'm used to the Yonkyo "pain point" being about a hand-width's up the arm from the wrist crease which is a bit further north than the points you mention.




Here's what I said:
Quote:

...1 "cun" (approx 1") up from LU7 toward LU6.




...which is about a hand's width from the wrist crease...


Quote:


Using the excellent site Gavin linked to, the nearest "official" pressure points I can see to the spot I'm talking about are LU6 and LI7.

So I guess two questions - firstly does that look like the Yonkyo spot to anyone else?





Nope... it's not LU6... too high. LI7 looks like a hand's width from the wrist crease, but your palm would be on the outside of the arm - facing your partner, and not on the inside of the arm, with partner facing away.


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#269450 - 07/07/06 06:43 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
You can do it both inside and outside the wrist at the same place,only on opposite "presentation" of the radial nerve at the ulner bone. The trick to it is to trap H-4 with your thumb on the "inside position" and with the middle finger on the outside position, and keep the elbow supported. That's the "button" for the "fire-metal" connection and for a good Yonkyo.

The problem with defining martial arts techniques with "points" is that a lot of "points" aren't defined by meridian identification, but they're still painful and work for martial arts applications, which is why I tend to "describe" a technique rather than the points involved.
The inside position of this technique hits right between L-6 and L=7 (you were correct, Eyrie), so giving you either one would be "wrong", but the nerve's still there, so don't get tied up in "point a + point b" equaling "the technique". They're great motivators, just not the great panacea of self defense that replace good solid MA training.

I sometimes call them "pain and suffering incidental to the blowing of the whistle"...

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#269451 - 07/07/06 10:39 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I agree... the points mentioned are merely landmarks (within other landmarks and features) on the body landscape. In any case, capturing and controlling the center thru the elbow is paramount and prior to applying any PP technique. If and when you do, it's pure icing....

BTW, if I've got yonkyo on the top of the wrist (what i call "outside"), I'd be going for TW6,7,8 cluster... rather than LI7

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#269452 - 07/07/06 10:59 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: eyrie]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
For a nice sensation, take the prescribed grip on the wrist points with one hand and then strike L 6 or LI 7, depending on the orientation of uke's hand in the entry (say shirt grab). Strike obliquely towards the hand. That will make them let go.
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#269453 - 07/08/06 11:27 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: underdog]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
There are all kinds of "enhancements" that can be done "after the fact", but as a stand-alone technique, Yonkyo is enough of an "attention-getter" for most people... especially if they aren't used to having it done to them.

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#269454 - 07/09/06 07:22 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1328

Ok so if that is how i grab the
hand Then what?

All these numbers/letters your refering to?

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#269455 - 07/09/06 08:36 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: ANDY44]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
First of all, bad technique... the wrist grip shown in the picture might be in the right place, but the support should be at the elbow, not the hand. Someone doing this technique, this way, is either very advanced or very inexperienced...

The letters and numbers are "meridian points" as defined by Chinese medicine. Find you a good acupuncture book and you'll have a road map for these points.

The nuances to Yonkyo are pretty suttle, and it involves simply rolling the knuckles on the "pain points" that make it work, so I won't attempt to detail it here. Any good aikidoka can teach you the technique in about 5 minutes if you're paying attention, and then it's like getting to Carnegie Hall... practice, practice, practice...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#269456 - 07/09/06 10:39 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: wristtwister]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Supporting the elbow is one way... locking the elbow through radius and ulna is another... either way locking the entire structure is important.

Actually, you'd be using the top of the index metacarpal at the metacarpophalangeal joint.

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#269457 - 07/10/06 06:55 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

either way locking the entire structure is important.




I think we're on the same page here, I just look at the "wrist" locking method of doing Yonkyo as a positional choice to use when the uke isn't in a position where their elbow is as accessible as their wrist. It takes a little practice to use the wrist area exclusively, where the elbow is pretty easily accessed and offers some kuzushi assistance if needed to switch techniques. As you say, it's a choice type of thing, but usually I find the people who use Yonkyo a lot use the elbow more readily.

Quote:

Actually, you'd be using the top of the index metacarpal at the metacarpophalangeal joint.




Right on the mark... and to assist that effort, use a baseball bat and "roll your index metacarpal" on it to toughen the area used for Yonkyo and build strength in the "angular" use of your muscles to effect it. Learning how to properly roll your own wrist on that technique is important as well...

You certainly don't want to "cheat" your uke of the full benefit of the technique...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#269458 - 07/12/06 07:58 AM Re: Yonkyo [Re: wristtwister]
Shepster Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: UK
Hi all, sorry, been away for a few days.

Eyrie, I'll bow to your superior pressure point knowledge - 1 inch up from LU7 doesn't look like a hand-width on the diagram I was looking at but I think we both know and agree the spot we are talking about!

Wristtwister, I have to pick up on your comment about the photograph of Yonkyo which you referred to as either "very advanced or very inexperienced". The grip shown is almost exactly the Yonkyo we are taught in the (Iwama) schools I frequent - it isn't presented as especially advanced and certainly hurts like hell (and creates an effective pin) when well applied. Could we just be talking about different styles and approaches here?

Anyhow, getting off the existing topic, but very interesting. I like the idea of trying to trigger points on both sides of the risk simultaneously.

(Goes off to experiment on self )

cheers

Shep
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#269459 - 07/12/06 09:56 PM Re: Yonkyo [Re: Shepster]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Shepster,
Okay, I'll admit that the picture is a "usual" method of teaching the technique, but I don't know many people who use it in randori like that... everyone I've trained with uses the elbow point rather than that "wrist hold" to apply Yonkyo. It might just be a "style" thing, but the elbow hold on Yonkyo makes your wrist feel like it's going to explode.

I've been doing Aikido since 1984, and I've seen about every method of doing the basic Aikido techniques you could imagine. The worst anybody has hurt me, was a young lady (nidan) who did Yonkyo on me at a seminar in Raleigh, North Carolina who probably didn't weigh 120 pounds... but she could bring tears to your eyes with her "grip". She hit the "sweet spot" every time, and that was when it became my favorite technique... if somebody her size and build could almost paralyze everybody she touched, it was the technique to have...

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