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#269190 - 07/04/06 11:34 AM Origins of Gojushiho
HiddenFist Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
Greetings all,
I am looking for information on the origins/history of the kata Gojushiho. Does anyone happen to know about this kata?
- HiddenFist

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#269191 - 07/04/06 11:41 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
My notes so far, nothing confirmed just collected ramblings from different sources -

Gojusiho (54 Steps) PHOENIX SYMBOLISM
Old Okinawan Useishi
Black Tiger?
Useishi (Gojushiho, Hotaku) - "the Phoenix", okinawanische Kata from the Itosu school with origin in China, in Japan "fifty-four steps" (Gojushiho) and occasionally in "woodpecker knocking" (Hotaku) renamed
Fifty-four Steps Phoenix 54 Ways to Kill. Go Ju also means Hard and Soft. Many subtle diversified movements.

The Korean animal spirit associated with the form is the Tiger. The desired intentions of the form are to be fearless, powerful, quick to walk away after the threat is gone. Speed of Performance and accuracy in focus of Delivery are key.

origin in the Phoenix Eye style

Gojushiho Dai consists of many advanced open-handed techniques and attacks to the collar bone

Gojushiho is an old kata that is mentioned in the Bubishi (Old Chinese martial arts text). The name means "Fifty four steps" and is referred to in the Bubishi as "Fifty-four Steps of the Black Tiger". The kata really shows the Chinese influences with it's many circular hand movements, finger striking techniques and fluid nature.

Some versions of the kata contain a "drunken" staggering type movement, although, this movement doesn't occur in the Matsumura version.

Useishi is usually called Gojushiho, which means 54 steps whose movements are said to resemble a drunken man.

54 Steps Black Tiger and use of White Crane Fist (Oldest Okinawan)


Hope that is of interest and some use, it should open up the discussion nicely, handy as this is my latest addition to my kata studies, useishi that is.

_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#269192 - 07/04/06 07:46 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Gojushiho, the Matsubayashi version is said to be that of Iju. Gojushiho is a complete system of palace hand or udundi and includes the drunken techniques as well(which by the way are used to throw your opponent clean across the floor just before smashing their face in.) An advanced kata which appears to have an overwhelming theme of immobilization followed with striking and finally slamming your opponent on a hard surface or into other people. I assume due to the indoor techniques in this kata it was specifically developed for the royal bodyguard to protect the king in the palace.

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#269193 - 07/05/06 12:11 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
HiddenFist Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
Thank you for this information.
I was aware of it's mention in the Chinese bubishi, and it's reference to 54 steps and the black tiger. I was hoping to find out more about how old this kata is, how it was developed, and why Shoshin nagamine's version ( drunken man) differs from Matsumuras ( black tiger) forms. thank you again - Hidden Fist

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#269194 - 07/05/06 12:43 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I can't tell you why one does and one does not, but I can tell you that in Matsubayashi the drunken postures train a high level of kazushi(breaking your opponent's balance) so you can throw them on the ground very, very, hard and preferrably face first. It is a different way to train the sinking(falling) principles learned up to this point. It seems to combine several principles from katas such as Ananku, Naihanchi, Wankan, and Wanshu. I also believe that Matsubayashi maintains the principles of the Black Tiger as well as Phoenix.

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#269195 - 07/05/06 07:54 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Just to confirm the version I practise (Seito Matsumura Based) does not have the drunken movements, im sure you all knew that.

Be very interested in what the principles of the Black Tiger system are Medulanet, really help me out as info in that area is hard to come by.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#269196 - 07/05/06 09:48 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
WuXing Offline
Member

Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 481
Loc: Idaho, USA
I'm pretty sure Nagamine learned the kata from Kyan. Kyan learned it from Matsumura (or his head student Itosu). So any change between the Matsubayashi version and the Matsumura version must have come from Kyan. The same can be said of Chinto.

As for the black tiger principles in Gojushiho...it's hard to see in the present version the kata. Of course, it could depend on which black tiger style might be referred to. There could be more than one. The Bubishi mentions it once, but doesn't say anything about what it is or where it's from. The black tiger I know is from northern China, Shantung Province. It is considered a Shaolin derived style. The more acrobatic elements from the northern system are obviously absent in the karate kata, like drop kicks, dropping iron broom sweeps, cartwheel kicks, and attacking from the ground (some of these techniques actually do appear in the Bubishi, however). The black tiger I know also employs lots of claws/palm techniques. The hand formation is loose, employing a whipping power. The part of the kata which feels most like black tiger to me is the shuffling forward steps with the knife hands. a small adjustment in hand position to a raking/clawing motion would make the technique almost identical to sections in a couple of the black tiger forms I know. The drunken/stumble motion in matsubayashi version could also fit in with black tiger methods, especially in the "wounded tiger". Of course, I am far from knowing all of the black tiger system, and Gojushiho obviously includes techniques from other styles as well (the phoenix/crane for one, with the beak).

On an interesting side note, I have a book on Shantung Black Tiger which shows an arm toughening drill which is identical to the arm conditioning drill used in my old karate school. (done with a partner, striking the forearms together). Coincidence?

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#269197 - 07/05/06 10:44 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: WuXing]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, the palm strikes/nukites are what I was referring to as from the black tiger as well as the preceding nekoashi dachi shuto ukes. In Matsubayashi's Gojushiho the nukites are not only finger tip strikes but imply striking with all surfaces of the hand, which includes palm strikes and thumb strikes which is the old way of striking with a nukite from udundi. Phoenix techs are those such as the double upper strikes, punch and kick combos, and the back fist strikes used in conjuction with immobilization and some of the finger tip strikes. And yes crane is seen in the beak strikes and some of the double elbows. Again, I don't know everything about black tiger, phoenix, and crane, but I do know okinawan karate and that these elements were included in Gojushiho. Now, as to who Nagamine learned Gojushiho from I don't know if he learned it from Kyan. I personally believe that he learned it much earlier either from Arakaki(of a lineage independent from Kyan), maybe Iha Kodatsu, or may be an earlier teacher. I believe this simply because Matsubayashi's Gojushiho is different from those systems influenced by Kyan. Next time I attend a Takayoshi Nagamine seminar I will ask him if he knows who taught his father Gojushiho. Or maybe when I see Taba I will ask him. However, I am almost certain that Nagamine's Gojushiho is from a different lineage than Itosu. It is, again, an entire family system of udundi and contains many unchanged principles of that system. The dead give away is the nukite strikes used which contain the old method of striking, the suppression techniques, and the throwing techniques used. In udundi a practitioner would simply walk and could dispach his enemies as if strolling through a park with strikes and throws. Matsubayashi's Gojushiho's linear pattern straight forward and back mimics this.

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#269198 - 07/07/06 12:33 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: medulanet]
HiddenFist Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
Greetings all,
I just have to say that all this information is great and I have learned some interesting things on this topic.
Thank you all so much.
The version of Gojushiho I am familiar with consists primarily of tiger claw techniques to vital points and reverse round kicks that simulate the whipping of the tiger's tail, it also consists of 54 steps. - HiddenFist

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#269199 - 07/07/06 04:22 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Hi Hiddenfist,

could i ask what version you practise? Just interested.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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