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#269220 - 07/12/06 06:24 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: ANDY44]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Perhaps you should contact Al Martin Jr. His Website is http://karateinc.tripod.com. His father was my teacher.

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#269221 - 07/12/06 06:46 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Gojushiho / Seisan

These Kata have the same origin in a Southern Shaolin Style called "Pheonix Eye". The form they were taken from is called "Kaisan". The name on Okinawa was "Useishi" but this was changed to Gojushiho - "the fifty four steps". Seisan's name has stayed the same some say it means three Gates some say three fronts! There was also another form known as "Kaizoku" in Japanese it means Pirate. Some say Kaisan, Huquan, Baihe, Kaizoku, were the Original kata Sokon Matsumura learned in Fukein ie Kaisan=Gojushiho+Seisan, Kaizoku =Chinto+Chinsu+Chinte Baihe=Hakutsuru Huquan=Bassai however I do not know if this is factual could be chinese rumor!

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#269222 - 07/12/06 07:42 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: senseiaverywax]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Avery

Most of us have read that book as well--but thanks again for reading it to us.

Plus--some of what you posted is plain wrong.


Edited by cxt (07/12/06 07:43 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#269223 - 07/12/06 10:04 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: senseiaverywax]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
would you mind sourcing your plagerism please? it gets tiresome to have to do it for you:
http://www.kua.com.au/Data_pages/katadata.htm

and the info about Seisan is incorrect.

these rumors get started by people taking a version they know (yet there are many versions), and visually compare it to Chinese forms, then take the meaning of what that Chinese form is called and apply it to their form. thereby establishing a fake link to the past.

why would they do that? because the perception of 'older is better' sells. you know what 'sells' for me? something that works and someone available to teach closeby so I can study often and long-term.

want to talk about something verifiable and current about Gojushiho? an interesting book by Bill Burgar called "Five years, one kata". I've never been taught the kata but the main theme was: take a classic kata, throw away all of the applications that you've been taught - then using Pat McCarthy's 'Habitual Acts of violence' sensability, apply defenses using the basic shape of the form.

personally, I didn't agree with the conclusions. The defenses looked ok, but the correlation between application and kata were not close enough to the form to make the learned form of any use. ...why not just practice the defenses themselves as in Ashihara or another non-kata based system? but I liked the moxie of giving a higher priority to application rather than form....THAT was the breakthru in printed material available on kata analysis in that book IMO.

a question I have for this thread is: why did he choose Gojushiho to be the one to study and analyize in this manner exclusively? and does that decision base itself upon the kata's believed origins?

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#269224 - 07/14/06 08:34 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: Ed_Morris]
HiddenFist Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
Ed,
I started this out of a basic curiosity as to what is known about this kata. The reason being is that there are so many different versions. This is not the only kata I could have asked about. I was just interested in what is known about it. My beliefs on this kata had nothing to do with asking the question, I was simply gathering information. If you would like we can change to another kata lol.

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#269225 - 07/14/06 09:09 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Wow, I was going to write something, but forgot.


Edited by Ed_Morris (07/14/06 11:45 AM)

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#269226 - 07/14/06 09:39 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: senseiaverywax]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Mr Wax,

While this isn't about Gojushiho, you might find the footage on the Battle of Okinawa on this site interesting.

http://www.okinawabbtv.com/culture/battle_of_okinawa/battle_of_okinawa_eizou.htm

Just click on the pictures down the screen, and there are 4 different video clips.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#269227 - 07/15/06 10:17 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
sommers Offline
Banned Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 28
Loc: South Georgia
Hidden Fist,

I to am Interested in this topic. However it seems to be hard to get factual Information here most I have seen is playgerized from other incorrect sources and there is even some disagreement between mods from time to time.However there are some good people lurking around here but they seem to only lurk. when something exciting or informative does occur the thread is locked Imediately and the posters are exspelled. I know who you are now and you already knew who I was Coincidental do you think? I am sure we do the same Gojushiho at least same source. But I have always been Interested in why so many versions of Gojushiho. Seems the same way with Hakutsuru! Most of it may be a bit political among the styles even.

Keep training that cypress tree Brah;
Matt S.
_________________________
Matt Sommers Sensei

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#269228 - 07/16/06 12:24 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: sommers]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

when something exciting or informative does occur the thread is locked Imediately and the posters are exspelled.




A bit dramatic, aren't you?

3 threads on the same subject concurrently were merged into one for the sake of clarity - the topic was not squashed in any way. And no one was "expelled".

On with the thread at hand.

_________________________
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#269229 - 07/16/06 06:22 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: sommers]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Matt,

You asked "But I have always been Interested in why so many versions of Gojushiho. Seems the same way with Hakutsuru! Most of it may be a bit political among the styles even."

Back when most of the changes occured, creating the different lines of Gojushiho, there were not styles.
Styles really began to arise in the 50's or so.

There were just instructors who had different roots, and because real karate in those days wasn't documented, all we have are oral legends why change occured, if that even was passed on.

The old line "Kata must be unchanged" is, was and always will be words for beginners, not karate-ka. Becuase all the instructors uttering those lines changed their kata one way or another, especially as they could not point to a reference that what they're showing is really the old way.

The likely reasons for change were,
1. time - as one learns more their undertanding of their art changed and the kata followed.
2. forgetting - perhaps a kata was placed on the back burner, and a memory gap arose, something filled that gap and a new version may result.
3. new insight - a new attack is imagined and a new response is created and the kata changed.
4. public performance. many Seniors had a tradition of never performing their kata correctly in public (so it or it's true intent could not be 'stolen'). So they changed it for those performances (which sometimes continues to this day, in the 70's Demura did a Jiin or Jion in one of the magazines, one section was intentionally reversed so he could always identify anyone who tried to learn it from the magazine.) And perhaps that performance was so good the changed version stuck.
5. It really doesn't matter if the kata changes if the performer can make those changes work

On the whole you see less change as time passes in a gojushiho than you've seen in a Seisan or a Patsai. It was simpler to muck around with the simpler kata, IMO.

Does it make a difference, absolutely not. Intrinsically all Gojushiho versions can stop any attack, which is the core of Gojushiho or any other kata, as technique repositories.

Hakutsuru is even more problematical, as in most Okinawan traditions it was not present. Here I honestly believe many whooped up Hakutsuru to try and prove they were linked to some mythical tradition. But the proof in the pudding is can they make each technique in their Crane form work. If so who cares where it came from. If they can't who cares anyway.

pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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