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#269200 - 07/07/06 10:27 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
It may be of interest that perhaps the older name for Gojushiho is Useishi. John Sells ("Unante") calls Useishi a chinese derived word synomous with Gojushiho.

Sells also mentions that the possible Matsumura - Kyan lineage versions tend to begin by dropping on one knee with a reinforced forearm block/strike, where the more modern versions (Itosu-Mabuni-Funakoshi lineage) start with a standing mid level backfist strike.

Personally I find the emphasis that some versions contain drunken movement an overstatement of the movement. If there is a Chinese source for the form, and you take a look at other Chinese 'drunken' forms, there is no credible cross-reference. But perhaps drunken means different things.

One Matsubshi Ryu offshoot (Kashiba Juku) practices drunken versions of all of their kata movements.

Even with the continual tidal flow of kata movement there are great similarity between all of the Gojushiho kata if you step back a bit.

Some views for contemplation

You find a pdf file showing one version of Gojushiho sho and dai (I'm not sure how close to shito-ryu and/or shotokan versions this is - haven't done the research)
http://www.bushido-kai.net/budoya/img/GojushihoDaiShoSeuqence.pdf

A different version can be found here: (Dentokan related to Kyan's)
http://proxy.ee.kent.ac.uk/~cpb2//Dentokan/Shorin_Ryu/Gojushiho.mov

Wado version
http://www.johnstonkarate.net/downloads/page0002.html
shito-ryu
http://shitokai.com/movies/manzoiwata.php
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#269201 - 07/07/06 11:23 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'Sells also mentions that the possible Matsumura - Kyan lineage versions tend to begin by dropping on one knee with a reinforced forearm block/strike'

confirmed from the Matsumura lineage, not sure re the Kyan Lineage.
_________________________
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#269202 - 07/07/06 01:44 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Interesting Victor. Although I have not read Unante is the difference in the initial technique in Gojushiho a function of the standing mid-level strike being more modern, or a different lineage such as Tomari rather than Shuri. Having trained with Matsumura for so long he was probably exposed to the karate of the other Peichin including Oyodomari and Kosaku Matsumora. Actually the suppression technique with the blow to the bridge of the nose is classic usage of Tomari principles. Especially when followed up by the joint locks and strikes in the second movement. Does anyone have any more info? Maybe bunkai of the Matsumura versions knee drop can give us more info. I know in the Matsubayashi version the goal is immediate knock out. If that is not accomplished then disorientation so a joint lock similar to a keylock can be applied and then more strikes to finish off what should have ended after the first technique in the kata.

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#269203 - 07/07/06 05:05 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
In relation to the version I practise, I consider the drop/morote position to be a kamae, ie the kata begining from this position and then rise up into the double phoenix fists.

This sits well with a phoenix 'rising' symbolism, and from a practical level shows a kneeling start, obviously not uncommon in the enviorment the kata was perhaps formulated.

I have many years to explore further of course as this is a new kata for me, but this is my understanding right now and of course just a single intepretation of what might be going on.
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#269204 - 07/07/06 05:48 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: shoshinkan]
HiddenFist Offline
Member

Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 28
I study Shaolin Shorin Ryu. Sometimes it is known as Matsumura Shorin Ryu.

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#269205 - 07/07/06 07:17 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
med,

John Sells was simply describing that the more modern versions of 54 used a standing backfist.

As I would characterize it, the version used in Matsumura Seito (I have a copy of Tosheki Gillespie's Panther video doing the form and some apps.), and those from Kyan (ie. Seibukan, Chiniba, Matsubayshi and others) being descendent of Matsumura do the drop to the floor.

Those lineages from Itsou (Mabuni's Shito ryu and Shotokan) use the standing backfist. I guess his implication is those are 'newer' than the other versions. But how to 'prove' it I don't know.

Any of the answers have uses, it's just they're different ones.

Gillespie shows the opening technique blocking a kick and then rising.

The version of Gojushiho I practice (from Tristan Sutrisno) is related to the Matsumura/Kyan versions, but his Shotokan also has Gojushiho Dai and Gojushiho Sho.

I never went far enough with him to learn his 'bunkai' for the kata. And I have more than enough toys to play with, but his versions, a variation on the 54 theme, has other uses, and I work it specifically for the advanced breathing and energy release that is used in his practice. But that's another topic.

BTW, I only did some quick research picking up some Gojushiho examples. I'm rarely satisfied with the eye candy which is avaiable to look at. IMO, in most instances a great deal is being held back from even all out performance.

But they are useful for discussion, and of course anyone who really has a question can google them out for themself for initial research too.

I often wonder why more don't begin by looking at what's available themselves. Our discussions are fun, but they're hardly authorative as we really don't know each other.
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#269206 - 07/08/06 09:40 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: HiddenFist]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Mr. Hidden fist,

Useshi or Gojushiho depending on the kata's Lineage from Shaolin to Oki to your teacher could perhaps be Huquan (Black Tiger} from Shantuang or (Qaihequan) (Druken Fighting)from Fukien. or maybe a mixture of both. There is also Baihe(Hakutsuru)or White Crane and Seisan (arise from the ashes or three Immortals)which in its original context contains alot of Pheonix Eye though some consider this Mrs Matsumura's Kata. somthing about fighting with a baby on your back or was that a monkey! Hmmm!

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#269207 - 07/08/06 11:34 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: senseiaverywax]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI

Im some what confused. I study karate, I train karate to the best of my abilities. You said that you know the Channans?


I live far to far from your self to ever visit. Do you have any okinawan katas in book form with the bunkia?

Hope you dont mind me writing this.

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#269208 - 07/08/06 11:45 PM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi

Did you ever get the bunkia to the kata?

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#269209 - 07/09/06 01:39 AM Re: Origins of Gojushiho [Re: ANDY44]
senseiaverywax Offline
Channan fodder Banned Member

Registered: 06/05/06
Posts: 97
Yes I know the Bunkia and the Oyo to the kata!

Sorry to my knowledge no such books exist on the Real Channan Kata's. How ever I have heard that there is a fake book written by somone in Shotokan Karate named Smicer. But I saw no resemblence in his and the ones I know his look more like shotokans Heian's or Itosu's Pinnans Not at all like real Channan's

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