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#267408 - 07/14/06 02:46 PM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: ButterflyPalm]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Interesting post Butterflypalm...
Quote:

So, yes, Bodhidarma taught meditation; No, he did not (and couldn't possibly have) taught the use of meditation for combat application. It would be like crediting your personal gym trainer as your MA sifu.




So, if Bodiharma didn't teach martial arts, where DID the 18 palms system come from?

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#267409 - 07/15/06 12:09 AM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: wristtwister]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
Where did the 18 palms come from?

I have no aboslute historical proof, though it has always been associated with the historical Shaolin Temple and, rightly or wrongly, credited to Bodhidarma, as so many other things in Chinese martial folklore.

Actually this proves my point. The 18 palms, which when done as a form of 'moving meditation', is done for the cultivation of internal energy which, when applied for the enhancement of actual combat techniques, is purely accidental and, may I say, a corruption of its origianl purposes. The 18 palms, per se, do not necessarily have martial or combative application. It was not originally meant to be a set of fighting techniques but for the cultivation of inner energy for meditative not combative purposes (though like the sanchin kata, people when only taught the physical side of it, began to "see" fighting techniques in it because unless you are told or taught its real purpose, you haven't a clue what or where the internal elements are and how to get it)

There are two basic ways to meditate. You can start with the mind and eventually going down to the body, a very difficult route given the difficulties in taming the restless monkey in the mind or an easier way which Bodhidarma thought more suitable for the lazy monks, start with the body (ala 18 palms and its many historical variations) and eventually going up to the mind. I've done both, and let me tell you, Bodhi was right. It took him 9 years sitting in a cave to work it out. He (my view of course) simply reverse engineered the sitted meditative variety, which is why, I suppose, you do not find this in India, the sitted meditation capital of the world, ancient or modern.

Actually the internal elements of the sanchin kata have 'essential' similarities with the 'Yi Jin Ching' (muscle/tendon changing set) another set of internal (Yogic) excersize credited to Reverent Bodhidarma. Having done these (or its many modern manifestations) and the Taoists equivalents (for decades now) and having gained the internal energy from it, I can say that the transmigration from the basic non-combative movements of the excersizes to applying it in actual combative techniques is quite easy (and so, with hindsight, obvious) to see and will happen to anyone sooner or later. So I am not surprised at all that the pioneering 'lazy' monks then saw the obvious. Like what some say that if Einstien had not come up with the Theories of Relativity, someone eventually will and Einstien didn't have the nuclear/atomic bomb in mind when he thought about these Theories, did he?

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#267410 - 07/16/06 06:25 PM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: ButterflyPalm]
Dauragon c mikado Offline


Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1246
Loc: Oxford, England
Interesting! my brain get bigger! wow!

Now I dont want to go too much off topic but could it be fair to say theres a good chance that Buddha himself did yoga and perhaps a martial system of some sort "before" he sat under the bhodi tree and in turn created buddhism, I just wondering because I read that buddha did many religious practices on his quest to enlightenment and being in India, who knows what he found?
_________________________
The way of the warrior is a resolute acceptance of death. -Musashi

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#267411 - 07/16/06 07:46 PM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: Dauragon c mikado]
eric235u Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 38
Loc: MA
great explanation by ButterflyPalm. "...cultivation of internal energy which, when applied for the enhancement of actual combat techniques, is purely accidental and, may I say, a corruption of its origianl purposes..."

"...but could it be fair to say theres a good chance that Buddha himself did yoga and perhaps a martial system of some sort..." no Dauragon c mikado it does not seem fair to say that. are you trying to say that his royal military training was somehow incorporated into the darma? i've yet to see any proof of that.
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#267412 - 07/16/06 08:24 PM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: eric235u]
Dauragon c mikado Offline


Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 1246
Loc: Oxford, England
I wasnt saying that, I was just asking what practices did he encounter during his 'journey', I only asked this because I wanted to know if he had tried a martial way to attain his goal (though I doubt it, if he did he didnt include it in the precepts).
_________________________
The way of the warrior is a resolute acceptance of death. -Musashi

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#267413 - 07/17/06 07:51 PM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: Dauragon c mikado]
eric235u Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 38
Loc: MA
it's almost like it doesn't matter what the historical buddha may have said, we're gonna do what ever we want anyway. so what's the final verdict of the thread? one did not come from the other but nothing is wrong with combining them? mmmnnn...

these pics got me giggling.

http://catholicshopper.com/products/media/DE_3985.jpg

=

http://drunkenmaster.tv/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/00504.JPG



The gods too are fond of a joke.
Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC)


Edited by eric235u (07/17/06 07:53 PM)
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#267414 - 07/18/06 02:36 AM Re: Zen Not a Martial Philosophy [Re: eric235u]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
The 'catholicshopper' figurines reminded me of a story.

A man was seen doing some juggling in front of the altar in a church. When asked why, he replied that he was told God does not demand that everyman be able to do great and wondrous things, but only do what he is best at and God will be happy. Well, I juggle for a living in a circus and its the only thing I am best at.
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I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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