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#267218 - 06/27/06 04:18 PM Training for the leg catch
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
We all know it happens, and grapplers forever remind us it's going to happen (you should hear me nag Supremor ). So, how do you train for it? Do you just get someone to catch the kick, and kind of 'go with the flow'? Does your instructor teach how to make the best of it? What do you do? (I'm not looking for magic 'get out' moves, just damage limitation tips)

I'm particularly interested in what Dereck, JKogas and BrianS have to say, but any other grapplers' input would be much appreciated, as well as you TKDers.
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#267219 - 06/27/06 04:41 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: TimBlack]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Funny thing is, most of the UFC I have seen, I haven't seen to many leg catches, they typically shoot for the legs the way that Greco Roman stylist do (not always, but mostly what I have seen). IMO, the reason is that they train to kick low, if I'm going to kick in the street,I know thats how I'm kicking. Now in the comps that I attend, you can't catch the leg so its a non issue. I have been shown somethings in how to get out of the leg catch on the street, but I don't know if I trust them enough to work (you end up on the ground anyway so whats the point, may as well just learn ground fighting right ?). I'm interested to see what kind of responses will follow. Good thread Mr. Black.

VDJ

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#267220 - 06/27/06 05:37 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: TimBlack]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Haha,i was thinking about this today.Iv been reminded of leg catches today as my bloody arm hurts from falling after being caught last night.
I train in a kickboxing/kung fu class once a week and one guy has been doing martial arts for a while so is experienced so when we spar we are free'er and go at it a bit more.
He often attemps or does catch me if i high kick too slow or time it wrong.
Now iv neard what i should do like rechamber and all the theory though to be honest if the person keeps going you end up on the floor and the only option i can see is bringing them down too.Unles they let go and you can get back up.
As it was stand up sparring only i didnt grapple though i was grounded and he was above with my leg hitting me, though i grabbed his leg and could of and would of took it from under him and gone from there.(he actually said ''let go of my leg,let go of my leg'' hitting me to pursued me haha.I did and he let go and we carried on stand up)

I must admit iv never trained for what to do nor has it been brouht up in TKD lessons.Which is ironic lol.I think if a low grade asked me id say dont kick high unless its sparring in the dojo. Mmmm I might ask my instructor.
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#267221 - 06/27/06 05:41 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: matxtx]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Was taught to use a downward cross-block to stop and then trap the leg, turning the attacker around and onto the floor.

Also got taught the odd leg catch byjamming in an a turning kick and blocking with arm against your own torso. Then catch the leg from below (wrap your arm around it so your arm is under the leg).

Learned a couple in step sparring too.
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#267222 - 06/27/06 05:51 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: TimBlack]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

I'm particularly interested in what Dereck, JKogas and BrianS have to say, but any other grapplers' input would be much appreciated, as well as you TKDers.




Having both TKD and grappling experience, I have a unique perspective on the situation. I've written in numerous threads on this topic before, and I will relay the answer I gave before.

Quote:

We all know it happens, and grapplers forever remind us it's going to happen (you should hear me nag Supremor ). So, how do you train for it? Do you just get someone to catch the kick, and kind of 'go with the flow'? Does your instructor teach how to make the best of it? What do you do? (I'm not looking for magic 'get out' moves, just damage limitation tips)




The primary basis of defending a takedown involving a kick is to make sure that you have control over how it happens.

Let's not kid ourselves, if you've gone and got your leg caught, you are going down. However, you can control how this happens and land in a position which will benefit you.

The number 1 rule for defending against a leg catch is control your opponent's head. This means, if you have a hold on your opponent's head, he's going to be reluctant to take you down and if he does, he's coming down to the ground with you. The worst place you can be is on the ground when your opponent is standing up. Taking him down with you is making the most of a bad situation. Plus, if you have ahold of his head and he tries a single leg takedown or a sweep, his face is probably going to go straight into the pavement. Not pretty for him.

Let's assume your right leg has been caught.

How do you gain control over your opponent's head? Well, you've got to act quick. Bend your leg, hop towards him and grab ahold of the back of your opponent's neck with your left hand (it is important you use the hand opposite the caught leg, I'll explain why later).

From here, your opponent may try to take you down with a sweep or a wrestling takedown, but at least you have control over their head and they will have to go down with you.

Now, you should be in a three legged clinch with your opponent grabbing your knee. Start punching or elbowing your opponent in the head with your right arm. Because your opponent has ahold of your right leg with his left hand, he will not be able to defend against this without releasing his hold on your right leg.

When he releases or loosens his hold of your right leg put all of your body weight on it and pull down on it with your right hand. This should release the leg from his grip. Now you are in a normal clinch and still have control over his head.

The fight continues from here as normal, I recommend to TKDers to escape the clinch to striking range as soon as possible.

Even if you are taken down, your opponent will go down with you and you will have control over their head. Any grappler will agree that this is a good advantage, given the situation.

Other people may suggest things like kicking with your other leg or jumping on your leg to break the grip. These methods suffer from the fact that one leg on the ground makes you unbalanced but two legs off the ground makes you supremely easy to take down.

NOTE TO MODS: Can we please make this a sticky post? I don't want to have to explain this again after this, I've done it twice before already.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/27/06 05:57 PM)
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#267223 - 06/27/06 07:32 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: Leo_E_49]
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
The way I train for this is, usually when someone catches a kick (not that easy to do considering the risk involved) they will catch it with both hands. If both their hands are on your leg, then they are not defending their face. Throw punches, and hand strikes. This is actually a deceptive tactic I use sometimes in MMA sparring. I will throw many hard kicks, as I usually would, then I will throw one a bit softer, to try and get then to grab my leg, then I will be sure to move in close, and attack with elbow strikes, or if I am farther away punches. Also, if someone catches a really hard kick, sometimes it will hurt the person who caught it more than the kicker, even If they are taken down. I think it is important to have striking and grappling skills, so that even if your kick is caught, and you are taken down, you can still defend yourself, and be in the fight. So my advice is to kick hard, and if your kick is caught, then throw punches until they let go, or you can get your leg loose. If they cathch it with one hand, you still have two so strike away.
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#267224 - 06/27/06 07:48 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: Mike_L]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

The way I train for this is, usually when someone catches a kick (not that easy to do considering the risk involved) they will catch it with both hands.




This is likely the result of wearing gloves, roundhouse kicks are usually caught underhand in a similar position to a guillotine in my experience.

Quote:

If both their hands are on your leg, then they are not defending their face. Throw punches, and hand strikes.




This depends on your distance from them. If they've caught your calf, you can't punch them because you are out of range.

Quote:

This is actually a deceptive tactic I use sometimes in MMA sparring. I will throw many hard kicks, as I usually would, then I will throw one a bit softer, to try and get then to grab my leg, then I will be sure to move in close, and attack with elbow strikes, or if I am farther away punches.




You actually let them catch your leg on purpose?

Quote:

Also, if someone catches a really hard kick, sometimes it will hurt the person who caught it more than the kicker, even If they are taken down. I think it is important to have striking and grappling skills, so that even if your kick is caught, and you are taken down, you can still defend yourself, and be in the fight. So my advice is to kick hard, and if your kick is caught, then throw punches until they let go, or you can get your leg loose. If they cathch it with one hand, you still have two so strike away.




I'm pretty sure that you need to secure your upright position by grabbing behind their head or a sweep will place you literally head first into the ground. Not a good thing if you're fighting on concrete.

Otherwise, a good assessment, I agree with you about cross-training.
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#267225 - 06/27/06 07:50 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: TimBlack]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I think you will find several different perspectives so here is mine and I'm going to hit this from several different angles so bare with me. Since I have an understanding of what I would do if I caught your kick, I have a better understanding of how I would react if you catch my kick ... so hence I am going to do it from both perspectives.

1. I catch your kick

A fast kicker is hard to catch kicks especially when they are low but the more tired they get the slower the kicks are and the easier they are to catch. For the most part my experience is not so much catching but scooping as when they kick I step in and scoop thus taking them off balance ... but should I take a kick that is high enough up, the best place to catch and trap this leg is on your back "lat". This is muscle and can take the impact more then your ribs. Of course not to be there is the first priority but if I have to take it then this is the best place. AND you don't just stand there and take it, you step in and move with the kick the same way you learn self defense to minimize somebody swinging a bat or an object at you. You lead in to reduce the amount of force and then move with the flow of the moving object and then trap it on your back lat with our arm.

Now this doesn't end here. Whether scooping or trapping a kick your first instinct should be to throw out your other arm to create space to eliminate your opponent from hitting you. You should shrug your shoulders and get your chin down and your temple below your arm so that if they can punch you that you only take it to the top of your head. Plus by extending the arm this limits them getting in close enough to clinch up with you or to really deliver a blow. At the same time start moving this person back to take them off balance and then step to the side and trip them to the ground. From here you can get get away, you can start kicking your downed opponent, you can apply an ankle lock or you can follow him down and try to gain top mount and whale away ... which even being a grappler I would stay away from unless I had several friends who had my back and I was in a crazied sense of mind.

Of course kicks can also be timed for block and punches but they have to be circular kicks to be effective, and you can also scoop from this position or just bowl them over. And if you can get in close with a block and punch then it is also possible to clinch up and try to control the head while delivering knees, elbows, uppercuts, etc. And if you can clinch up then you also have the capablity to take them to the ground. If they want to stand up straight then you can grapevine their legs to trip them or step in and sweep them to the ground. If they want to create a lot of distance then you can pull them forward thus leaving you in a top sprawl to deliver knees or downward elbows, chokes, etc. And if they lean too far forward you also can deliver some nice knees to their chin or pull them into a guillotene ... thank you.


2. You catch my kick

Very bad on me for allowing you to catch my kick. What was I thinking kicking that high in the first place? All kicks should be low and fast and never much above the knee. If you want to try to bend down to catch or scoop my knee I should be fast enough to pull it back or react accordingly to prevent it. If I kick high then I'm in trouble and I'm more then likely going to pay.

If I'm caught of course I am going to try to retain my balance and get in close so that I can lock you up. I will try to bend or lift my knee to move in closer, in fact I will try anything as I am now in panic mode because if my opponent knows what he is doing then I'm going to the ground no matter what. But as explained above, if he knows what he is doing he will have already limited me from getting closer and any punches I am throwing will either hit nothing but his arm or the top of his head and will be ineffective plus I will be dealing with moving backwards and to the sides and worry about falling on my ass or head which leads me to my next attempt ... I go to the ground.

Sounds crazy but I would rather control myself going to the ground then to be tripped or swept and with you holding me I can reduce some of my fall. I may have to use some falling techniques but be assured as soon as I feel ground under me I am kicking for your knees and groin and what ever other targets present themselves. I also will be pumping my legs like a bike and moving them in and out circular to release my leg and to fend you off. I will stay in this position and move around on my back to ensure that you do not get close enough to re-grab me or attempt to mount me, with my feet always facing you at all times. Hopefully with me kicking you you'll move back enough so that I can get up quickly defensively and should you come in before I can get up then I go back to my back and start the process over.

I'm sure there are other ideas of what can be done but this is what I have received from my training. They are good basics that my Instructor has provided and was shown again by George St. Pierre a few weekends back when I attended his seminar on MMA. These are basics I can remember and will use if I have to in the future as they seem a no brainer. Of course with other individuals joining in to kick your butt ... defend as best as you can but accept that it will eventually catch up and you will be on the losing end.

I think George put it best, there is a defence for everything ... but some times that defense is before you get into that position. If somebody catches you in a Rear Naked Choke and sinks it in then there is no defense ... the defense was prior to them sinking it in. The same goes for a kick, your defense should be before not when they do it. Sure you can limit it such as I've layed out ... and others will also provide ... but the best defense against getting your leg caught is "not" to get it caught.
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#267226 - 06/27/06 08:09 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: Dereck]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

If I'm caught of course I am going to try to retain my balance and get in close so that I can lock you up. I will try to bend or lift my knee to move in closer, in fact I will try anything as I am now in panic mode because if my opponent knows what he is doing then I'm going to the ground no matter what. But as explained above, if he knows what he is doing he will have already limited me from getting closer and any punches I am throwing will either hit nothing but his arm or the top of his head and will be ineffective plus I will be dealing with moving backwards and to the sides and worry about falling on my ass or head which leads me to my next attempt ... I go to the ground.




Classic Savate response.

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/antagonistics/AntSavate.jpg

Tried and tested, it does work.

I am not fond of this response however, for one primary reason. Although it does prevent you from being taken down, it also sets you perfectly up for a heel hook/knee bar/knee lock. Many MA train techniques which can dislocate your knee and ankle within moments of attempting this defense.

Now, this is unlikely in most situations unless your opponent is either a trained MMA, JJJ, Catch Wrestling or Sambo practitioner, but it is possible.

I prefer to clinch and hope for the best there.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who does Muay Thai, where grabbing the leg is allowed in competition.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/27/06 08:11 PM)
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#267227 - 06/27/06 08:16 PM Re: Training for the leg catch [Re: Leo_E_49]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Of course again you don't want to be in this position but if you are then you have to deal with it. I had not thought of the link as an attack but it certainly is an option. I was thinking more going to my back ... and yes a heel hook or ankle lock is possible and won't feel good. But hopefully I will take them off guard and even while going down I will be kicking thus hoping they will release the hold. And even if my ankle has to break this doesn't take from the fact I am still going to have to defend myself with whatever means I can.

In attempts to clinch up when the arm is extended by the opponent to create distance, and being moved back quickly and to the sides ... the clinch has not been possible, though I also would certainly try for it because you never know. From the catch, to the extended arm, to the moving, to the takedown, it can be a matter of seconds ... literally, which nullifies the clinch.

I have sent a PM to John hoping he will pop in to give his perspective.
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