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#266766 - 06/26/06 05:04 AM Are martial arts becoming weak?
Amadeu Offline

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
So far I have been doing Hakuda Ryu Ju Jitsu, its tough, traditionalm in some ways, Full contact as it should be, grading is done yearly, the techniques qork with agreesors on the street, not only it allows you to defend yourself, but changes your attitudes towards everyday life, example-Im 17 but before doin Ju Jitsu I wanted to show off all the time how strong I was, I did this by Fighting and lost a lot of the time, but after taking up Ju Jitsu at 13 after a few months I saw I didnt have to show my strenght in order to be strong.

In college I have come across many people who practise Karate, Judo, Aikido Kung Fu and some other styles.
I talk to them, a lot of them though seem to be like I was at the age of 13/14, Some even wanted to fight me but gave up after learning that I do full contact Ju Jitsu, a lot of Karate clubs seem to do Non contact or semi contact, I dont understand why, I think that martial; arts should be full contact, this way you learn how much the technique you do hurts, and you it allows you to leanr how to deal with pain when fighting.

However saying this, I have met some people in Judo, Karate and Aikido who are good in what they do, however its becoming increasinly difficult to find, but I have learned that recently a lot of Shotokan Karate clubs here in the Uk has started to practise full contact karate now.

So today even though I dont have much experiance, but I do research a lot in Japanese Karate clubs in perticular, I ask my self the question of Is Martial Arts becoming weaker, or are the instructors not doing enough to suceed their martial art??

Edited by Gavin (07/26/06 05:24 AM)
club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

#266767 - 06/26/06 05:52 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Tricky Offline

Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 6
Loc: England.
If I was sparring in my school I was constantly being told to hold back. However when I was sparring with intermediate students I found alot of them were trying to prove a point.

This often meant the more I held back the harder they became. This is a good way of learning self control yet at times this for me was somewhat frustrating. Purely because I knew I could finish the fight without severly hurting my opponent. Yet this was not my goal, at least this way I could put the pig headed students in their place.

I am a qualified Sifu in Chun Seh Dau Shaolin Kung/Gung Fu. As this was my Grandmasters way we were always incouraged to flow from one move to the next. As I have in many fighting systems. Thus meaning a smooth way of moving allowing many combinations of strikes to be joined together with the greatest of ease and without thought. Thus premoting health as in the flowing system of Tai chi chuan.

Technique conditioning is required for Full contact tournaments yet if you wish to truly learn the essence or the Art you should flow into your moves and become an inovator as past Masters have also.Control and balance of mind allowing your thoughts to flow with your body is the essence of my Art and this essence is relative to many Arts world over.

Remember that Martial Artists ways of life are skills for life and ways of honest expression, therefore self defence is just a small part of this expression. Strength of mind is superior to strength of body and therefore alot of the Masters past present and future develope the minds of there student to be cool, calm, and remain balanced even when faced by uncontrolable storms of emotions.

Thus giving the Master apparent students of the future the ability to understand their chosen Art and use it only to help others and develope the Art in a positive way making it only become better.
To express ones self honestly that my freind is Martial Arts! Bruce Lee

#266768 - 06/26/06 10:14 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I'd argue that more full contact and no holds barred competitions are coming round as a result of the UFC, Pride, K1, etc. I'm pretty sure that MA is heavier contact now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. Of course, some schools have gone the other way, but it depends on where you study.
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#266769 - 06/27/06 08:51 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Amadeu Offline

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
I wasent speaking about competitions, I do think competetions are not a true martial artist way to go, I dont want to express my point of view because thats not what Im trying to discuss.
I was speaking the methods of self defence such as kung fu, karate, aikido judo some forms of ju jitsu/jiu jitsu/ ju jutsu becoming weak in these current times.
club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

#266770 - 06/27/06 09:34 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Amadeu:

How can you, or I ever know the answer to this question? We were not alive "then", and even if we had been our life expectancy was not terribly long....

Do you genuinely believe that full-contact is the best indicator of skill? You are a young man, earnest at what you study... but your life experience is small, as well it should be (ie compaired to folks far older). Will you feel the same way when you perhaps have a family of your own...? Will you feel the same way if you have children someday? A job which requires unfortunate demands on your schedule and time....

There is no question that sustained ONLY full-contact arts produce tough people. Yet how many were crushed, made serious fodder by such training without cause? Is the art you study best served by only having teens and twenty something fit male students... or can something useful, wonderful be gained by having an "older" crowd, a younger crowd... those of a very different mental temperment, and outlook, because of what they have done in their lives thus far?

Are we genuinely, truly served best/only by the pain only route? I propose (rightly/wrongly) that no matter how tough, or how skilled we might be, any of us can be taken out but stupid luck. Any of us will cower/defer/surrender to someone especially if they have a couple of kids and are *@#*@#@)#@ CRANKY, angry, annoyed... myself I am not so ~tough~

Are "you"?

#266771 - 06/27/06 10:01 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Ronin1966]
Amadeu Offline

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
To do full contact you must certenly not have to be young and fit, I mean the founder of lan-kin-fa is 91 years old(who will be missed dearly and passed away this year, professor Bill Ranikin), I agree with you I am inexperianced yes, but I look at the others from ju jitsu, Im the youngest person who does only the adults there, there are other people there who do have kids, some are doing their degree and still working at the same time, I dont think Im tough at all, and I dont think Im better than no one, what Im trying to say is ju jutsu/jiu jitsu/ju jitsu, karate, akido, judo, kung fu, all forms of self defence with the eception of some martial arts which is more of a sport rather than self defence.
And we do full contact self defence to lenght jugding on the person, the mind set you seem to have then.Semi contact and no contact is one of the reasons why if you or me tried to go to Japan and do Ju Jutsu they wouldnt let us through the door, they view us as weak and not capable of understanding what martial arts is.
Ju Jitsu of course is not only self defence, its used also for raising ones determination, confidence, discipline, respect and other aspects of life.

And we have 2 different classes of course one of 6+ which is kind of full contact and one of 16+ but we let kids from the age of 14+ in if they have been doin ju jitsu before and are outstanding and we feel that they will cope with full contact.
And to do ju jitsu you have to be very commited in which most of us are, and with other martial arts I have come across that are not full contact they seem to have a big lack of commitment.

From my experiance so far( this may be simply because Im inexperianced/intolerant or simply stupid)nearly all people who do martial arts and are not full contact seem to be weak, stupid, have a big mouth and some times regarding their martial art as a sport in which of course everyone knows martial arts are is not a sport.#

But please do prove me wrong.
If I have kids I intend to get them to do ju jitsu and maybe they will be disciplined children and follow what their parents say, and not be like me when I was 13 and under.

And of course in full contact we have insurence, we dont let stupid people in who will just use martial arts to atack others, if they do then they are chucked out.
If you are new of course we have gradual steps to it, we dont just go full on, on your first day.

Thankyou for your comment anyways, and please dont be offended in anything I have said.
club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

#266772 - 06/27/06 10:52 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
TimBlack Offline

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton

From my experiance so far( this may be simply because Im inexperianced/intolerant or simply stupid)nearly all people who do martial arts and are not full contact seem to be weak, stupid, have a big mouth and some times regarding their martial art as a sport in which of course everyone knows martial arts are is not a sport.

I'm guessing it must simply be your experience, as I've met plenty of very 'tough' and skilled Martial Artists who rarely train full-contact. And Martial Arts can be a sport, just as boxing can be a Martial Art - it just depends whether you train to fight within rules. I'm guessing that even in your full-contact jujitsu sessions, there are certain rules people have to keep within (no groin/neck strikes?), and therefore there is a 'sporting' element. The degree of restriction involved in the rules dictates how much or how little sparring resembles 'real life' fights, but the purpose of sparring is not simply to simulate fighting, but to practice timing, technique and restraint.
My Workout Log

#266773 - 06/27/06 12:38 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: TimBlack]
webby Offline

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 147
Loc: newton abbot devon
I Disagree about the full contact thing, yes contact is a good thing when controlled. but full contact during training is not a good thing. you train at a dojo to learn, with friendly people, you dont go there to hurt a martial artist you should no when to control it and when to let it all go....

tight belts

#266774 - 06/27/06 01:21 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: webby]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2577

I Disagree about the full contact thing, yes contact is a good thing when controlled. but full contact during training is not a good thing. you train at a dojo to learn, with friendly people, you dont go there to hurt a martial artist you should no when to control it and when to let it all go....

tight belts

Good point! It's hard to fight someone off with a broken wrist or dislocated shoulder obtained in class....

It really comes down to the individual, some need to train full contact, others less so.
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

#266775 - 06/27/06 11:00 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Prizewriter]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've done both full contact and "pulled contact" fighting, and there is a higher degree of skill required to do "controlled, contact fighting", where "control" is not just a word or instruction, but a skill of the training. I never felt "tougher" when doing full contact, only sore where I got hit, but I could tell when I was doing well in controlled contact fighting.

The invention of hand and foot pads has had a detrimental effect on training in control. But, at the same time has opened up the sparring cycle of training so any idiot with a set of pads might slip a punch in and "score" at one time or another, but the level of skill required is not nearly as high.

Real karate strikes with punches, kicks, strikes, blocks, butts, elbows, knees, feet... etc... not "pads", even though the pads conduct some force, the loss of technique from blocking (which is just as forceful as the strikes and punches) is pretty much lost. Instead of "solid blocks", the sparring partners use "bump" blocks to fend and ward off punches, and never really get to the core of karate, which is a full contact disabling art.

Full contact work is painful as hell, and your body needs time to heal when doing that kind of training, even when you're in the best of shape. Controlled contact work accomplishes the same thing, but uses less damaging punches and kicks, but not less powerful ones.

As I've grown older, it takes longer to heal, and there are more injuries from years of getting banged on, slammed into mats, kicked, and punched, and from "force absorption" from having to do breakfalls in judo and jujutsu. It keeps you in shape, but also is a price that is paid by your body for the "information" you have. God knows, there are enough injuries and illnesses without "stirring the pot", so most martial artists that I've known over the years start a "declining" level of contact as they age.

If they keep it moderate, they will still have plenty for anyone they fight, either in martial arts or self defense. If they simply sit around and tell others what to do, they'll get killed in almost any combat... both from being out of shape and trying to do techniques they haven't kept their body trained to do, and from age deterioration.

Just like a race car, our bodies are capable of so much "mileage"... if we use them up too early, they stop running and are useless to us in later life... but if we train properly, there is still plenty left, and the skill level is maintained. The martial art itself hasn't changed, only the attitude and severity of training in any of the three types... full contact, limited contact, and controlled contact. Like a well planned battle, you have to be sure and not shoot up all your shots before you're ready to declare victory...

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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