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#266766 - 06/26/06 05:04 AM Are martial arts becoming weak?
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
So far I have been doing Hakuda Ryu Ju Jitsu, its tough, traditionalm in some ways, Full contact as it should be, grading is done yearly, the techniques qork with agreesors on the street, not only it allows you to defend yourself, but changes your attitudes towards everyday life, example-Im 17 but before doin Ju Jitsu I wanted to show off all the time how strong I was, I did this by Fighting and lost a lot of the time, but after taking up Ju Jitsu at 13 after a few months I saw I didnt have to show my strenght in order to be strong.

In college I have come across many people who practise Karate, Judo, Aikido Kung Fu and some other styles.
I talk to them, a lot of them though seem to be like I was at the age of 13/14, Some even wanted to fight me but gave up after learning that I do full contact Ju Jitsu, a lot of Karate clubs seem to do Non contact or semi contact, I dont understand why, I think that martial; arts should be full contact, this way you learn how much the technique you do hurts, and you it allows you to leanr how to deal with pain when fighting.

However saying this, I have met some people in Judo, Karate and Aikido who are good in what they do, however its becoming increasinly difficult to find, but I have learned that recently a lot of Shotokan Karate clubs here in the Uk has started to practise full contact karate now.

So today even though I dont have much experiance, but I do research a lot in Japanese Karate clubs in perticular, I ask my self the question of Is Martial Arts becoming weaker, or are the instructors not doing enough to suceed their martial art??


Edited by Gavin (07/26/06 05:24 AM)
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#266767 - 06/26/06 05:52 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Tricky Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 6
Loc: England.
If I was sparring in my school I was constantly being told to hold back. However when I was sparring with intermediate students I found alot of them were trying to prove a point.

This often meant the more I held back the harder they became. This is a good way of learning self control yet at times this for me was somewhat frustrating. Purely because I knew I could finish the fight without severly hurting my opponent. Yet this was not my goal, at least this way I could put the pig headed students in their place.

I am a qualified Sifu in Chun Seh Dau Shaolin Kung/Gung Fu. As this was my Grandmasters way we were always incouraged to flow from one move to the next. As I have in many fighting systems. Thus meaning a smooth way of moving allowing many combinations of strikes to be joined together with the greatest of ease and without thought. Thus premoting health as in the flowing system of Tai chi chuan.

Technique conditioning is required for Full contact tournaments yet if you wish to truly learn the essence or the Art you should flow into your moves and become an inovator as past Masters have also.Control and balance of mind allowing your thoughts to flow with your body is the essence of my Art and this essence is relative to many Arts world over.

Remember that Martial Artists ways of life are skills for life and ways of honest expression, therefore self defence is just a small part of this expression. Strength of mind is superior to strength of body and therefore alot of the Masters past present and future develope the minds of there student to be cool, calm, and remain balanced even when faced by uncontrolable storms of emotions.

Thus giving the Master apparent students of the future the ability to understand their chosen Art and use it only to help others and develope the Art in a positive way making it only become better.
_________________________
To express ones self honestly that my freind is Martial Arts! Bruce Lee

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#266768 - 06/26/06 10:14 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
I'd argue that more full contact and no holds barred competitions are coming round as a result of the UFC, Pride, K1, etc. I'm pretty sure that MA is heavier contact now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. Of course, some schools have gone the other way, but it depends on where you study.
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#266769 - 06/27/06 08:51 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Leo_E_49]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
I wasent speaking about competitions, I do think competetions are not a true martial artist way to go, I dont want to express my point of view because thats not what Im trying to discuss.
I was speaking the methods of self defence such as kung fu, karate, aikido judo some forms of ju jitsu/jiu jitsu/ ju jutsu becoming weak in these current times.
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#266770 - 06/27/06 09:34 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Amadeu:

How can you, or I ever know the answer to this question? We were not alive "then", and even if we had been our life expectancy was not terribly long....

Do you genuinely believe that full-contact is the best indicator of skill? You are a young man, earnest at what you study... but your life experience is small, as well it should be (ie compaired to folks far older). Will you feel the same way when you perhaps have a family of your own...? Will you feel the same way if you have children someday? A job which requires unfortunate demands on your schedule and time....

There is no question that sustained ONLY full-contact arts produce tough people. Yet how many were crushed, made serious fodder by such training without cause? Is the art you study best served by only having teens and twenty something fit male students... or can something useful, wonderful be gained by having an "older" crowd, a younger crowd... those of a very different mental temperment, and outlook, because of what they have done in their lives thus far?

Are we genuinely, truly served best/only by the pain only route? I propose (rightly/wrongly) that no matter how tough, or how skilled we might be, any of us can be taken out but stupid luck. Any of us will cower/defer/surrender to someone especially if they have a couple of kids and are *@#*@#@)#@ CRANKY, angry, annoyed... myself I am not so ~tough~

Are "you"?
J

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#266771 - 06/27/06 10:01 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Ronin1966]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
To do full contact you must certenly not have to be young and fit, I mean the founder of lan-kin-fa is 91 years old(who will be missed dearly and passed away this year, professor Bill Ranikin), I agree with you I am inexperianced yes, but I look at the others from ju jitsu, Im the youngest person who does only the adults there, there are other people there who do have kids, some are doing their degree and still working at the same time, I dont think Im tough at all, and I dont think Im better than no one, what Im trying to say is ju jutsu/jiu jitsu/ju jitsu, karate, akido, judo, kung fu, all forms of self defence with the eception of some martial arts which is more of a sport rather than self defence.
And we do full contact self defence to lenght jugding on the person, the mind set you seem to have then.Semi contact and no contact is one of the reasons why if you or me tried to go to Japan and do Ju Jutsu they wouldnt let us through the door, they view us as weak and not capable of understanding what martial arts is.
Ju Jitsu of course is not only self defence, its used also for raising ones determination, confidence, discipline, respect and other aspects of life.

And we have 2 different classes of course one of 6+ which is kind of full contact and one of 16+ but we let kids from the age of 14+ in if they have been doin ju jitsu before and are outstanding and we feel that they will cope with full contact.
And to do ju jitsu you have to be very commited in which most of us are, and with other martial arts I have come across that are not full contact they seem to have a big lack of commitment.

From my experiance so far( this may be simply because Im inexperianced/intolerant or simply stupid)nearly all people who do martial arts and are not full contact seem to be weak, stupid, have a big mouth and some times regarding their martial art as a sport in which of course everyone knows martial arts are is not a sport.#

But please do prove me wrong.
If I have kids I intend to get them to do ju jitsu and maybe they will be disciplined children and follow what their parents say, and not be like me when I was 13 and under.

And of course in full contact we have insurence, we dont let stupid people in who will just use martial arts to atack others, if they do then they are chucked out.
If you are new of course we have gradual steps to it, we dont just go full on, on your first day.

Thankyou for your comment anyways, and please dont be offended in anything I have said.
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club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

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#266772 - 06/27/06 10:52 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
TimBlack Offline
Exalted

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 1403
Loc: UK, Brighton
Quote:

From my experiance so far( this may be simply because Im inexperianced/intolerant or simply stupid)nearly all people who do martial arts and are not full contact seem to be weak, stupid, have a big mouth and some times regarding their martial art as a sport in which of course everyone knows martial arts are is not a sport.





I'm guessing it must simply be your experience, as I've met plenty of very 'tough' and skilled Martial Artists who rarely train full-contact. And Martial Arts can be a sport, just as boxing can be a Martial Art - it just depends whether you train to fight within rules. I'm guessing that even in your full-contact jujitsu sessions, there are certain rules people have to keep within (no groin/neck strikes?), and therefore there is a 'sporting' element. The degree of restriction involved in the rules dictates how much or how little sparring resembles 'real life' fights, but the purpose of sparring is not simply to simulate fighting, but to practice timing, technique and restraint.
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#266773 - 06/27/06 12:38 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: TimBlack]
webby Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 147
Loc: newton abbot devon
I Disagree about the full contact thing, yes contact is a good thing when controlled. but full contact during training is not a good thing. you train at a dojo to learn, with friendly people, you dont go there to hurt people........as a martial artist you should no when to control it and when to let it all go....

tight belts

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#266774 - 06/27/06 01:21 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: webby]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Quote:

I Disagree about the full contact thing, yes contact is a good thing when controlled. but full contact during training is not a good thing. you train at a dojo to learn, with friendly people, you dont go there to hurt people........as a martial artist you should no when to control it and when to let it all go....

tight belts




Good point! It's hard to fight someone off with a broken wrist or dislocated shoulder obtained in class....

It really comes down to the individual, some need to train full contact, others less so.
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#266775 - 06/27/06 11:00 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Prizewriter]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I've done both full contact and "pulled contact" fighting, and there is a higher degree of skill required to do "controlled, contact fighting", where "control" is not just a word or instruction, but a skill of the training. I never felt "tougher" when doing full contact, only sore where I got hit, but I could tell when I was doing well in controlled contact fighting.

The invention of hand and foot pads has had a detrimental effect on training in control. But, at the same time has opened up the sparring cycle of training so any idiot with a set of pads might slip a punch in and "score" at one time or another, but the level of skill required is not nearly as high.

Real karate strikes with punches, kicks, strikes, blocks, butts, elbows, knees, feet... etc... not "pads", even though the pads conduct some force, the loss of technique from blocking (which is just as forceful as the strikes and punches) is pretty much lost. Instead of "solid blocks", the sparring partners use "bump" blocks to fend and ward off punches, and never really get to the core of karate, which is a full contact disabling art.

Full contact work is painful as hell, and your body needs time to heal when doing that kind of training, even when you're in the best of shape. Controlled contact work accomplishes the same thing, but uses less damaging punches and kicks, but not less powerful ones.

As I've grown older, it takes longer to heal, and there are more injuries from years of getting banged on, slammed into mats, kicked, and punched, and from "force absorption" from having to do breakfalls in judo and jujutsu. It keeps you in shape, but also is a price that is paid by your body for the "information" you have. God knows, there are enough injuries and illnesses without "stirring the pot", so most martial artists that I've known over the years start a "declining" level of contact as they age.

If they keep it moderate, they will still have plenty for anyone they fight, either in martial arts or self defense. If they simply sit around and tell others what to do, they'll get killed in almost any combat... both from being out of shape and trying to do techniques they haven't kept their body trained to do, and from age deterioration.

Just like a race car, our bodies are capable of so much "mileage"... if we use them up too early, they stop running and are useless to us in later life... but if we train properly, there is still plenty left, and the skill level is maintained. The martial art itself hasn't changed, only the attitude and severity of training in any of the three types... full contact, limited contact, and controlled contact. Like a well planned battle, you have to be sure and not shoot up all your shots before you're ready to declare victory...

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What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#266776 - 06/27/06 11:59 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
PaulHart Offline
banned member

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 192
Loc: The Real
I would like to invite you to my Dojo, or any of my groups Dojo. In the UK I would like to suggest you visit Shoshinkan Dojo if you cannot make the trip. There are some left who teach strong Karate.
_________________________
Paul Hart http://allshorin.org

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#266777 - 06/28/06 01:26 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Ronin1966]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Hello Amadeu:

How can you, or I ever know the answer to this question? We were not alive "then", and even if we had been our life expectancy was not terribly long....

Do you genuinely believe that full-contact is the best indicator of skill? You are a young man, earnest at what you study... but your life experience is small, as well it should be (ie compaired to folks far older). Will you feel the same way when you perhaps have a family of your own...? Will you feel the same way if you have children someday? A job which requires unfortunate demands on your schedule and time....

There is no question that sustained ONLY full-contact arts produce tough people. Yet how many were crushed, made serious fodder by such training without cause? Is the art you study best served by only having teens and twenty something fit male students... or can something useful, wonderful be gained by having an "older" crowd, a younger crowd... those of a very different mental temperment, and outlook, because of what they have done in their lives thus far?

Are we genuinely, truly served best/only by the pain only route? I propose (rightly/wrongly) that no matter how tough, or how skilled we might be, any of us can be taken out but stupid luck. Any of us will cower/defer/surrender to someone especially if they have a couple of kids and are *@#*@#@)#@ CRANKY, angry, annoyed... myself I am not so ~tough~

Are "you"?
J




Excellent post!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#266778 - 06/28/06 03:46 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: PaulHart]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Q:why doesn't every school practice full contact sparring?

A: Insurance!

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YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

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#266779 - 06/28/06 05:19 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: pepto_bismol]
Tezza Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/05/05
Posts: 775
Loc: Kent, U.K.
Quote:

Q:why doesn't every school practice full contact sparring?

A: Insurance!






Exactly!
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Train Hard Tez WT Central

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#266780 - 06/28/06 12:52 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Tezza]
Shepster Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: UK
Firstly hello all - I'm a long time lurker finally registered.

I'd suggest that there's quite a difference between the title of this thread and the actual discussion. On the one hand, martial arts do not necessarily need to be practiced full contact all the time in order to be "strong". On the other hand, there is clearly something to be learnt from the pressure and fear that higher levels of contact can create, and I do think that many martial arts schools shy away from that "pressure training" to avoid scaring students away.

For instance, I have never sparred full contact. I do remember, though, the first time I had to spar against someone who was much better than me (both in grade and sparring ability). During the round, he began to "turn it on" and put quite a lot of pressure on me - I learnt more from those 3 mins than in 6 months of more general training because I learnt how much more I needed to practice to be able to respond usefully under that kind of pressure.

The instructor and the senior student involved clearly felt comfortable putting me (quite a junior student) under that kind of pressure because I was older (30s) and bigger (>100kg) than most - and I'm very glad they did. I'm not certain, though, that every martial arts student gets this "shock treatment" in an appropriate way and at an appropriate time - creating the danger that people can think their skills are more ready for "reality" than they really are.

Anyhow, maybe wildly off topic for a first post, but I'd suggest that there is a danger that martial arts training becomes weak over time, but that it doesn't have much to do with full contact training per se.

cheers

Shep
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#266781 - 06/28/06 01:27 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Shepster]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Shepster -

Quote:

I'm not certain, though, that every martial arts student gets this "shock treatment" in an appropriate way and at an appropriate time - creating the danger that people can think their skills are more ready for "reality" than they really are.




Agreed, Shep. I really believe that these situations are required to get a good sense of perspective on your skills, and your ability to use them. The highest skill level is of little use if you fold under pressure from a quality opponent or just a hard attack.
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#266782 - 06/28/06 04:08 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Shepster]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Welcome mate

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#266783 - 06/29/06 04:46 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: oldman]
Shepster Offline
Member

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 27
Loc: UK
Thanks! Nice to be here.
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Insert wisdom here

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#266784 - 06/29/06 03:37 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Shepster]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
hei shepster im new here to mate.
wristewister, I agree with you, and that is hwat I was trying to say, for example in our seminars we have orange belts in ju jitsu who seem to be more capable of doing the techniques, showing a higher sense of understanding and knowlegde than a dan grade in what was non contact karate, of course I get sore as hell lol, but you tend to be more capable in coping with pain than normaly, and obviusly we have insurance, and we dont hit for example someone in the balls(I have got hit there before thoiugh lol, Im the youngest so they pick on me which is a good thing so I will get tougher ermm hopefully)instead of hitting someone in the balls you would hit them in the legs.

I mean last seminar a girl who does childs and half of the adults classes made a aikido brown belt cry, a red belt in ju jitsu put a guy down with one punch to the stomach, and even the aikido sensei said to my sensei simon chantler, I would hate to dight one of your guys because you do it full on, you got control and you know whats like to geting hit, I from this though can see a great foult with myself, Im way too proud lol.
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#266785 - 06/30/06 03:51 AM Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Ryan_Doherty Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Australia
No. If anything, the martial artists are...


Edited by Ryan_Doherty (06/30/06 03:52 AM)
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Ryan Doherty

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#266786 - 07/24/06 02:20 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
Kaibo101 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/16/05
Posts: 23
In our style we work up to full contact. A white belt, most of the time, can't handle full contact. So what we do is help them learn how to "Take a hit". The more advance students that have control will hit them softly at first and the target will say 'harder' or 'thats good'. When they say that's good the more advance students work on their control by trying to punch the target with that same amount of strength. After time and training the target learns how to take the hit and then they say harder. HTen when the puncher becomes the target and the target becomes the puncher then the newbie can go full out and work on strength while the more advance student takes the hits without any problems.

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#266787 - 07/25/06 10:51 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Karate hasn't become weaker in my opinion but it has had to adjust to our pro legal society in order to stay alive......although I think the children part of MA has been weakend.
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The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#266788 - 07/25/06 04:59 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: wristtwister]
Kazama Offline
mystical mountain hermit

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 105
As said before, i think it depends on the school. For instance, if you have a really young or old age group, the instructor will want you to hold back. But if the students are fit and strong enough to deal with punishment, I think the instructor will deal it out. Like in Krav Maga classes, at least where I train, sparring is not exactly full contact, but you don't have to hold back as much in my age group. But with the younger age groups, there is barely any contact.
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Do or not do. There is no "try". -Yoda

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#266789 - 07/25/06 05:43 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Is martial arts becoming weak?





I don't know that martial arts are, but GRAMMAR sure is taking a beating!

Actually, I believe martial arts are improving just as many other athletic events are, with each new generation. Advancing technology has helped this to some degree.


-John

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#266790 - 07/26/06 05:23 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: JKogas]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

Quote:

Is martial arts becoming weak?





I don't know that martial arts are, but GRAMMAR sure is taking a beating!

/quote]

That's been bothering me since this thread started! I'm gonna edit it!
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#266791 - 07/26/06 05:44 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Gavin]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I'd say leave it as it is. Let it be a glaring example of what NOT to do.



-John

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#266792 - 07/26/06 10:22 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Is martial arts becoming weak?




I is be thinking that for a long time too! Me doesn't really know though.I just be training the bestest that I could been.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#266793 - 07/26/06 03:43 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: BrianS]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Depends on how one is using the term or thinking of it. If you are using Martial Arts in its entirety as a single concept enveloping all of Martial Arts-dom, then the poster is correct.

For instance, using "Sports" as an example when used to talk about competitive endeavors in general, you would have to use the word with a singular subject-verb agreement.

Sports is alive and well today.

Similarly, (depending upon use) Martial Arts is alive and well today.

-B

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#266794 - 07/26/06 06:01 PM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: BrianS]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
"I is be thinking that for a long time too! Me doesn't really know though.I just be training the bestest that I could been"

Brian, I have been in a foul mood all day today, (see becoming a doorman thread for details) but that really had me in stitches.
Cheers for that mate, I needed that.

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#266795 - 07/27/06 10:10 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: butterfly]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
You're welcome McSensei!


Brad,
You party pooper!
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#266796 - 08/03/06 12:35 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: BrianS]
alphawolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 137
I don't think MA is becoming weak, it is just that martial arts as a whole is not as necessary for survival in the world as it was before guns were around. Back then, your skill meant everything. Martial arts now is practiced for self defense and for perfection of character( in my opinion anyway). Even the most dedicated training routine today would likely not stand up to the training back when it was NECESSARY for survival. Sure you can use what you learn for self defense, but chances are you are not going to be in H2H combat with someone all the time in the real world unless you go looking for trouble. I have personally never been in a fight and never plan to, seeing as i believe that the greatest victory lies in the battle not fought. I love karate and aikido and have done it for a long time, but if someone is 10 feet infront of me with a gun, i honestly stand no chance except to run like hell. Martial arts as it is is simply a reflection of the age we live in.
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More chi! Train harder!

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#266797 - 08/08/06 01:24 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: alphawolf]
kerris75 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 2
Loc: BC, Canada
I've been reading this thread, and it's quite interesting seeing everyone's opinions. With regards to the matter of sparring, I've trained in styles in which there was no or extreme minimal contact. Currently I train full contact. I've gotten benefits out of both. I find that the no-contact sparring has given me a level of control that most of my fellow kickboxers do not have (especially with their kicks), but full contact has helped me to understand what works and what doesn't (sometimes in an unfortunately painful way - try a cracked cheekbone thanks to a slicing roundhouse ). I believe that when we train we should train "with" each other, rather than "against" each other. If we hurt our fellow students, then that is time that they cannot train. This is something I am working very hard to make my young students understand.
As Aplhawolf mentioned, martial arts is a reflection of the age we live in. What I have seen lately is that martial arts is becoming more about the business and the students are seen as "customers". I think this is where martial arts is becoming weak. In many places, the traditional values that should be part and parcel of martial arts are being lost in consumerism.

I also agree the grammar issue of the thread, anyhoo...

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#266798 - 08/09/06 08:08 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: kerris75]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
In college I have come across many people who practise Karate, Judo, Aikido Kung Fu and some other styles.
I talk to them, a lot of them though seem to be like I was at the age of 13/14, Some even wanted to fight me but gave up after learning that I do full contact Ju Jitsu, a lot of Karate clubs seem to do Non contact or semi contact, I dont understand why, I think that martial; arts should be full contact, this way you learn how much the technique you do hurts, and you it allows you to leanr how to deal with pain when fighting.






HI there hows it going?.
Full contact might have its place.
But
It is nigh on impossible to fight full contact with out removing a fair amount of Techniques.
Most of which should be or could be used in self defence. There fore there has to be a need for none contact or semi contact training/ fighting in the MA,s.

How many times is a person going to allow some one to grab and twist their testicles? Or drop a knee in to their throat?Or head butt someone fully?

Using gloves will minimise the skill effect of fighting with out gloves? but thatís another argument.
Im not sure what the rules you use in Ju jitsu are but if a person applied full contact everytime they trained/fought they are going to end up punch drunk or have knackered limbs and other body parts.

Either way

I think that there is a use of none contact or light contact in MA,s
Karate and Ju jitsu are not getting weaker/softer where I practice.
.
Thanks

Ous Andy



Edited by ANDY44 (08/09/06 08:32 AM)

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#266799 - 08/09/06 08:10 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: wristtwister]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Wrist twister.

Real karate strikes with punches, kicks, strikes, blocks, butts, elbows, knees, feet... etc... not "pads", even though the pads conduct some force, the loss of technique from blocking (which is just as forceful as the strikes and punches) is pretty much lost. Instead of "solid blocks", the sparring partners use "bump" blocks to fend and ward off punches, and never really get to the core of karate, which is a full contact disabling art.





I Totally agree with this statement.
But do you think that the people with this kind of
Knowledge are getting less and less?


Edited by ANDY44 (08/09/06 08:33 AM)

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#266800 - 08/16/06 10:27 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: ANDY44]
Spade Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 255
Loc: Auburn, Al.
I've done full contact and pull contact sparring. I find that pull contact helps you improve faster then full contact, it forces you to control your speed, timing, and strenght much more. It also allows you to use more techniques, if you are going full contact, you arn't going to do a throat strike or a knee stomp, however you can train those types of techniques in pull contact.

I still enjoy full contact, and its still great for trainning too, but that type of thing seems more like once a month, where pull contact can help you improve everyday. I messed up my ankle doing full contact, and couldn't train for three months.
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#266801 - 01/10/07 05:48 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Spade]
Amadeu Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 11
Loc: England, Kent
not at all, in our club we certanly practise all strikes, and of course we dont go over the top with certain such as throat and groing hits, but they do certanly hurt.

But if you dont know how to deal with pain what would you after geting hit, because what would happen if your opponent knows martial arts.
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club motto is "If it Hurts It Works"

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#266802 - 01/14/07 08:20 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: kerris75]
Midnightcrawler Offline
Dragon

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England
Quote:

As Aplhawolf mentioned, martial arts is a reflection of the age we live in. What I have seen lately is that martial arts is becoming more about the business and the students are seen as "customers". I think this is where martial arts is becoming weak. In many places, the traditional values that should be part and parcel of martial arts are being lost in consumerism.





Perfectly correct, students ARE customers. You really should know this as from your profile you earn your living by instructing in MA. I consider it is reasonable to presume that your organisation is fully insured and extends every courtesy and facility to your customers as would be expected from any other professional service provider, EG Doctor, Dentist, Solicitor (Lawyer) or Teacher of mathematics? If this is not the case then why not? In not doing so you leave the organisation and by implication yourself wide open to legal action should a customer decide to sue for injury sustained whilst 'in your care'.

By way of example let me quote you; "try a cracked cheekbone thanks to a slicing roundhouse". This could be worth a small fortune to the injured party, and without appropriate insurance might mean bankruptcy to the service provider.

So to make it short, any MA training provider who considers their attendees to be anything less than customers is ultimately riding for a very large fall. So why are they customers? Simple answer; they put food on your plate, clothes on your back, a roof over your head, a car on your driveway and in some instances a helicopter on your landing pad. That is what customers do, PAY YOU. So the least they can expect in return, is not to be damaged in the process.

MC.
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God only knows; Really.

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#266803 - 08/16/07 01:09 AM Re: Are martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
falconhunter2020 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 16
You have a very unique perspective regarding contact force. You say we should only practice full contact, but not in competition...?

My school practices semi-contact because going full force aginst your training partner from the same dojo is counter-productive. It prevents the growth of inexperienced students and over-inflates the egos of experienced students.
Also, other than increasing pain tolerance and maybe endurance, using full contact in a sparring session (of the same length) doesn't increase your fighting skills any more than semi-contact, but since you can spar much longer using semi-contact, you can develop your skills much more.

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#266804 - 10/11/07 06:31 PM Re: Are martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Amadeu]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
Amadeu,

Keep in mind that martial arts schools are (mostly) for-profit businesses and therefor need a certain base number of students to survivie. Full-contact training is the best way to train. But it is also a way that lacks appeal for senior citizens, sedentary people, small kids, etc. The only people who can consistently be counted to accept full-contact training are those who are young, fit, and confident. Unfortunately, those folks are not numerous ebnough to keep most schools profitable. Martial arts school often "water down" their training to appeal to a broader audience.

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#266805 - 12/05/07 12:30 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Spade]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Are martial arts becoming weak? I'd say no, martial arts are martial arts, I think do however think that in many areas, martial artistS are becoming weak but that is simply a character and individual issue, not an issue with the styles.
I also think that largely depends on the area you're in and your social class. Those factors say a lot about how necessary it is for you to be a "tough fighter" and be real effective with your MA skills and how hard you'll train. In some cases MA quality has never been better and in some cases it has never been worse. I'd say the amount of MA schools that are on MCdojo level has risen in recent years though. But it's probably not much different than it's ever been. People are people and MA is MA.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#266806 - 12/08/07 06:54 AM Re: Is martial arts becoming weak? [Re: Stormdragon]
Bunny_Warrior Offline
Member

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 48
Martial arts aren't weak, it's the fighters who are weak sometimes. That said, it's not the martial arts that suck, fighters suck.

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#266807 - 03/12/08 11:15 AM Re: Are martial arts becoming weak? - St. Louis MM [Re: Amadeu]
janxspirit Offline
Member

Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 132
Quote:

So far I have been doing Hakuda Ryu Ju Jitsu, its tough, traditionalm in some ways, Full contact as it should be, grading is done yearly, the techniques qork with agreesors on the street, not only it allows you to defend yourself, but changes your attitudes towards everyday life, example-Im 17 but before doin Ju Jitsu I wanted to show off all the time how strong I was, I did this by Fighting and lost a lot of the time, but after taking up Ju Jitsu at 13 after a few months I saw I didnt have to show my strenght in order to be strong.

In college I have come across many people who practise Karate, Judo, Aikido Kung Fu and some other styles.
I talk to them, a lot of them though seem to be like I was at the age of 13/14, Some even wanted to fight me but gave up after learning that I do full contact Ju Jitsu, a lot of Karate clubs seem to do Non contact or semi contact, I dont understand why, I think that martial; arts should be full contact, this way you learn how much the technique you do hurts, and you it allows you to leanr how to deal with pain when fighting.

However saying this, I have met some people in Judo, Karate and Aikido who are good in what they do, however its becoming increasinly difficult to find, but I have learned that recently a lot of Shotokan Karate clubs here in the Uk has started to practise full contact karate now.

So today even though I dont have much experiance, but I do research a lot in Japanese Karate clubs in perticular, I ask my self the question of Is Martial Arts becoming weaker, or are the instructors not doing enough to suceed their martial art??




Most people who want the real thing do MMA these days for the very same reasons you are stating..
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St. Louis MMA Boxing Grappling

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