Gavin and MartialMack --

You're thinking along my lines.

My point about the arms being tied up wasn't necessarily as a result of a bear-hug. I was thinking more along the lines of classic wrestling tie-ups (inside bicep tie, underhook and bicep tie, over-under and body lock ties, double underhook tie.

Those are classic tie-up positions that I have worked with for quite some time. I've been on both the giving and receiving ends of them. Those tie-ups are a lot more sophisticated than what many people think of as "the clinch". If a good wrestler is able to tie a person's arms up like that, you can forget the shredder and everything else, with the exception of working to escape.

What I'm saying is, if you try to do anything other than a technical escape, you'll merely end up in even worse shape (knee strikes and takedowns are simple from those tie-ups). Think of a these positions like a trap in which going IN is easier than going out. The shanks are all aimed in one direction and going opposite of them will rip you to shreds. Shark's teeth are all pointed inside his mouth. A good clinch is sort of like that. Many people screw themselves up by working harder to get out and leave themselves vulnerable in the process.

A point I'm trying to make about the "Shredder" is, if you're close enough to start "shredding", you're close enough to either establish those control tie-ups or, have them established on YOU. For MY money, I'd rather have positional control in that range than for my opponent to have it.

To say it another way, I'd rather get a CTU (control tie up) than shred and possibly leave those lines of defense open because I had my arms out of position. In those cases, I'm open for takedowns. Everyone and their BROTHER on this forum states that you "never want to go to the ground in a street fight". Well, leaving your arms out of position will get you there fast against a good wrestler. It only takes a second. Shredding out of position will get you there. Kicking is another fast track to the ground. Hell, overly committed punching will open those lines of defense as well.

However -- Shredding can be a useful tool for a person with a clinch game who already understands how to obtain and work from those CTU's. But it wouldn't be something that you'd always need considering that those tie-ups (when executed properly, with skill) are so dominant in and of themselves. From those positions, it's pretty easy to run your fingers into the eyes and face, etc. It's also easy to throw strikes and slam your opponent on his head. Which is better? I suppose that would depend on the situation you're in at the time.

What this means is that, you have to have skill FIRST before you start looking into tactics like the shredder (of course that goes for fighting in general). If you have no clinch skill, leave these sorts of tactics at home and start training wrestling. IMO, the Thai clinch, while it can be effective, isn't in the same league as a Greco clinch. Gimmicks are no substitute for skill. However with skill, any tool can be used. Joe Sixpack straight off the barstool won't have the same shredder that a Randy Couture will, in other words.



-John

Must admit my clinch game isn't in the same league as a wrestler but I do work very well from a very tight guard moving into a thai style clinch. We work very hard on having a very offensive style close guard presenting very little targets to strike or shred working through an onslaught. The thing I've noticed about a lot of RBSD guys is that the lack proper grounding and usually have a very high center of gravity which as long as your entering game is upto scratch they can usually be uprooted out of their feet and dropped to the floor or into a wall. I like and fully support the retraining of the flinch response but I think there are better ways of training it in the long run. I prefer to neutalise, break the persons structure and then finish. I think you made a great point about this being a tactic bolted onto a solid skillset. Trouble with a total all out agression over skill and technique approach is that it usually comes down to either who gets in first or if all things are equal, who's stronger and shreds harder. Those two "if's" aren't really acceptable to me. Although I can see how this has become a very popular tool, it's quick to learn and teach and requires very little skill. I think addresses a large part of the mindset required to successfully defend yourself, but isn't foolproof against experienced fighters. I can see flaws in the theory from a strikers point of view and I think John presented a good case from the grapplers... would be very interesting to have a play with a skilled shredder one day! So, like John I see a place for the tool, just don't see it as a subsitute for other skills though.

Kogas you grappling fiend... I can't believe we're actually agreeing! I humbly apologise to all my stand up brothers... I promise not to make it a habbit!

I think we're pretty much agreed from a non-shredder point of view that its a fantastic tactic for quickly bringing someone up to speed but seems to have holes against experienced properly trained fighters. Could an experienced shredder give some perspective?

Sorry to have such a hasty response, but to touch on a few points....

1. You need technical clinch skills, to a certain degree, to "maximize" your shredding skills.

2. No matter what way you tie my arms up, I can still do damage using my other body parts. I've done it numerous times in training, including against accomplished wrestlers. A clinch means his vitals, his body, is right next to mine. If you clinch me and control my arms, so what...I can still scream in your ears, spit, maybe headbutt, bite your f--in ears/nose/cheek off, all depending onthe positioning and available targets.

3. I agree about just eyegouging a grappler, but seriously, most grapplers never take into consideration "dirty" tactics while training and have an unrealistic reality of real fighting and situational, behavioral, and emotional variables. And they always say "if im mounted on you, you cant do xyz" well no sh-t but what if I don't let you mount me? As soon as your make contact with me, my hands will be doing damage...and even if you're in the guard. I'm not gonna extend my arms out to shred, I'm gonna pull my self in close, negating armbars and things like that, and if he starts to move for a choke, sweep, whatever...well, if its a dangerous enough situation, I'll tear his eyes right out of his skull with little effort, grind his face in the pavement, stab him with an improvised weapon, stack him and as I "pass" his guard just stomp on on his head until hes done twitching. Hate to sound so violent but its just something I get asked a lot and 99% of grapplers only train against someone trying to punch and kick them, which is a lot easier to stop then something intent on tearing off facial features....