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#266429 - 06/24/06 11:40 AM Southern Praying Mantis!!!
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Registered: 05/20/06
Posts: 961
Loc: New York City
Found a bunch of southern mantis vids to show you guys what my current art is all about. I guess you can compare it to WC because there is alot of similarities. Also much of what WC has is also encorporated into Southern Mantis as well. Its just you learn it a different way, like chi sao (sticky hands).

The art that I'm practicing now is Chow Ga, though it still looks different from the ones in the videos I find them a pretty close match, since its within the same family. I find Jook Lum to be more flashy than Chow Ga, the jumping and kicks are something new to my eyes. Its like a southern fist with a splash of north.

Chow Ga:
vid 1
vid 2
vid 3

Jook Lum Pai (Henry Poo Yee)
vid 1
vid 2
vid 3
vid 4
vid 5

your thoughts??
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266430 - 06/24/06 12:09 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
MattJ Offline
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Great find! Very interesting to see SM style. I was not aware how similar it was to WC.

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#266431 - 06/24/06 02:29 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: MattJ]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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WC draws some influence from Hakka arts. Mantis is the most famous of the Hakka types and they all exhibit a similar stance and con-caved chest and rounded shoulders charactertistics. One difference I would say is that S. Mantis trains to use the fingers, hands, arms away from the body. The arms are more extended (like a mantis, haha) while WC has your arms closer to ur body. Idea is to be able to have strength and speed while your arm is still out. So then you dont have to re-"chamber" your hand to hit someone. The strength involved is from what i hear and experience, completely different from other arts.
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#266432 - 06/25/06 09:55 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
Fisherman Offline
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I do see some similarities to some of the WC I have seen.

Would you say a major difference between the Southern and Northern Mantis is the footwork? I have had some experience with Mantis forms and what I did had quite a few kicks in it. It was from a Shaolin based system so I am guessing that what I did had more northern influence.

Is there any correlation between the southern mantis lineage and WC?

Nice find with the vids!
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#266433 - 06/25/06 01:35 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: Fisherman]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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well I never really encountered Northern Mantis before but I find them pretty different. Southern Mantis develops short power and the idea that you shouldnt have to draw your hand back inorder to hit the guy. It also involes alot of counters and blocking and attacking at the same time.

One person that trains with my group said that this strength is like nothing else. So I would imagine that Northern Mantis would no employ the same kinds of techniques and stuff though I would say that there probably are some similar ones. ALso the overall look of the art seems different. Northern is all about that horse/bow stance (generalization) with the pointy finger as the mantis's claw. Southern is basically 1 stance the horse (not horse stance) and is really relaxed and more like the way you would stand if your just hanging out on the street.

I'm sure you've noticed that many of the Chinese arts are really similar with footwork and basics mainly because these were made from originally northern influences (also original Shaolin is northern). WC and Southern Mantis (I'm sure theres a couple more) look completely different from everything else. Maybe because aesthetic value was not considered when creating these arts. The Hakka arts (Mantis) and Fujien arts (WC) are kind of like cousins I would say and so they have some shared characteristics. How direct the lineage is? I cant say.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266434 - 06/27/06 05:14 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
Tezza Offline
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Thanks for the videos some very interesting ones.
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#266435 - 06/30/06 12:36 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: Tezza]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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too kind too kind
if I can get my camera back I might post up my own videos of my training or my fellow peers(if I get the chance to go back). And show another "style" of SM.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266436 - 06/30/06 06:45 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
Tezza Offline
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Sounds cool I look forward to seeing them.
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#266437 - 07/13/06 02:34 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: Tezza]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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well I didnt get a chance to get any clips but I did shoot myself doing my Sam Bo Jin (3 step arrow). Theres alot of dynamic tension (I think thats what you call it) in all the movements to develop strength. This is the first form and the most basic in terms of technique but its probably the hardest one to do if you put alot of effort in it. All that tension gets you pretty tired.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ToHHM-7lXMg

comments? thoughts?
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266438 - 07/18/06 03:11 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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more clips!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=obUQNsv-6gU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_e1ejNMcgQM

the 2nd link is just pretty much the same as the 2nd form that I learned, except for a few minor changes, but generally the same.

The 1st link has a couple of things that I do. The "Dur Jong" clip of the 2 guys hitting each others arms is it. And the part where they hammerfist each other's hands is another excercise...a pretty painful one.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266439 - 07/20/06 05:08 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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just out of curiousness does WC or Southern Crane (the Fujian one) have any kind of similar excercises?? I can only think of Chi Sao from WC and that is only slightly similar due to the stickiness.
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#266440 - 08/24/06 02:53 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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for you guys who like to read this thread, heres a clip from Mind, Body, and Kickass Moves that you might have seen featuring Chow Gar Southern Praying Mantis
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OdlvgIc5hgk
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266441 - 09/14/06 05:39 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Heres some more clips
Chow Gar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzztNI4xIqM
usually its the 2nd form that you're taught, just me doing a little demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFySwF7VSC8&mode=related&search=
this is one of the higher level forms, called Fut Sao or Buddha Hand. Lots of "ging" or short power that is used

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mDkP9mjBU&mode=related&search=
the current grandmaster from above giving a demo in Hungary, a slightly closer look at Fut Sao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXFFitr1OkM&mode=related&search=
from a movie, aparently its Southern Mantis which is kind of cool since its nonflasy-ness keeps it from making it to the big screen in most cases.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266442 - 09/24/06 05:54 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tailiugug Offline
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
my gung fu famlily comes from a southern chinese temple boxing called tai lui chuan fa (Suu family), with-in the disipline there are 5 hands & 5 animales eagle, mantis, bear, tiger & leapard, eac with its own grand master, our mantis has 7 forms all very deadly and not taught until you have reached instructor level. I will say that it differs quit alot from the videos clips, the tention form seamed to be a chi secreation form. where as all of our forms the breath is natural and continues. since the temple was formed my ten masters in the late 14th century, we come from a differnt begining. I have much respect for all the southern mantis practioners I have incountered in my time. all have been a very apt in combat and knowledgable in anatomy.
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#266443 - 09/24/06 08:16 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tailiugug]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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oh wow, the stuff you practice definitely sounds pretty cool. All the breathing in the forms and such are there to help develop chi, or course no one would really breath like this while fightin or anything...i dont know maybe there are? But thanks for the comment, do you have any clips or anything online thats from your family of arts?
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266444 - 09/24/06 09:55 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tailiugug Offline
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Sure the is a web page is dedicated to one of my sifus he is the current grand master has been since 78

www.tallbearstailiuchuanfa.com

there is not alot of info on this sight (its new)about the animals of tai lui, it mostly has info up to black belt. but if you contact Sigung he will answer all your questions. If you are interested in the art post on it and ask about instructors in your area, most of the instructors dont teach in schools.
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#266445 - 10/25/06 02:00 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tailiugug]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Loc: New York City
huh, interesting that you're kungfu has southern mantis in the system. Your art kind of sounds like an umbrella art that Shaolin is. Like you learn kungfu but do some tiger, some mantis, some monkey, etc etc kind of thing.

what exactly do you do for you're mantis section??
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266446 - 11/06/06 08:59 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
RazorFoot Offline
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In the past, I have tried to incorporate a little 8 Step Praying Mantis into my fighting. I believe 8 Step is a northern Mantis style but not sure. Are the basic differences the same between Northern and Southern Mantis as they are with other Northern and Southern styles? I have followed Grandmaster James Shyun of the 8 Step system for years now and I do like the system but since I have never formally trained in Mantis, some of the subtleties escape me.

Scottie
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#266447 - 11/07/06 04:18 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tailiugug Offline
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Tai lui chuan fa
has a very large bace, its techneces are medium to soft. external and internal. thier are five fingers and five animals. the five fingers are 1) Master hand (to control and redirect) 2) poisen hand ( to attack the nerves and vastular systems, redirecting) 3) quicki hand (spontanius reaction, how to draft power from your attacker) 4) servival hand (to distroy the nerves and vascular systems) 5) death touch or de muk hand ( to end your attackers life at once or with delay) the five animals are Eagle, Mantis, bear, tiger, leopard. as for the training your fist 5 years or so are spent learning the first 3 fingers with the core being master hand and the first 20 of 50 poisen hand techneces, with this fondation you have reached high brown to black belt level. it is at this level you may start learning the animal forms, you will have a very stronge understanding of body mechanics, anatomy and chi.
each animal has its own forms the eagel has 9 the mantis has 7 ect. all forms in tai liu are based on 9 attachers except one and that one has 12 becouse it is based on a real battle. the eagle and the mantis are the deadly ladys of our system and are taught by sigung as he see's fit. I am currently working on mantis form 3 and i have 7 of the 9 men. also each man in a form or manster hand tech will have 5 to 12 combined tech to make one fist method. this is a true southern temple art. that works with body mechanics not strenght so it is good for all body styes and sex's

Keep training (pain is joy)
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#266448 - 11/13/06 10:53 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tailiugug]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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Razorfoot:
check out the clips in the earlier posts, thats what Southern Mantis looks like. And as for Northern Mantis? well thats probably 90% of the praying mantis that you'll ever see.

Tailiugug
thanks for expanding on you're art
but what do you exactly do in the mantis section?? Any of it similar to the video clips that I posted up earlier?? I'm just curious as this is probably the first time that I've heard of you're art as well as Southern Mantis being part of something else. I'm wondering if any of what I've practiced is similar or the same as what you have practiced.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266449 - 11/14/06 03:29 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tailiugug Offline
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
my computer isn't fast enough to play the clips properly, I am looking into anouther labtop that is faster and has much better video possibiltys, as for what i can show you, I will ask permission from sigung to post a couple clips. ( I have figure that part out) The thing is I have permission to perform in competion and for my students. I do not have permission to teach the mantis right now I can take my students to 1st level black and all the animial style are after that. I cant openly teach those arts untill I have reached my boxer level enother two years or so. but my specialty is the animals. I will video & post the forms that i compete with in compition.
I have played with a southern mantis instructor out side of chicago (Bambooforest) or something like that, the first time I played with him was in 1999. 1 year before my tai liu animal trainging started. my mantis at that time had many of the pricibles that was displayed. I spoke with this instructor in 2004 and dicoused the posiblity of a conection between the two southern art.. he is addimit that they where not, he went on to say that the "real" southern mantis would never "need" two know anouther animale.

all speak how i feel about that if you want.

Ill post what can

also If you post on the the Tailiu web page and ask sigung all your questions. He is the Grand master and says things straight off the sholder.
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#266450 - 11/15/06 05:53 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tailiugug]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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haha yea the permission thing comes with the respect you have to show to your master and stuff. I don't teach a class up here at college because I never asked my sifu to do so. I'm just allowed to teach basics to a small number of people up here for my own sake, also because I want to expose the art more.

The mantis you speak of is Jook Lum. Theres 4 different Southern Mantis arts: Jook Lum, Chow Ga, Chu Ga, & Iron Ox.

Well I can't discredit what the guy said, I'm sure hes much more versed in Mantis than I am. I can understand what hes saying though, the 4 mantis systems are very developed and are unsupplemented. But I mean Northern Mantis is pretty developed too and its part of the Shaolin animals too. But what do I know? haha

Lookin forward to see your clips
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266451 - 12/10/06 11:01 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tailiugug Offline
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Greetings.

let me speek alittle about the mantis training in tai liu. I will speek about the form I am working on now it is number three of seven (note each form is based on 9 men attacking) in this form there are some key conepts that are worked on. one it quick jurking motion or faking/taunting motion. this is done 2 to 4 times before each attacker. it helps develope a instant power transfer from grownd to hands or forarms, anouther constent through out this form is a stepping tech. that is done while stepping over a dead attacker while prepareing for the next. as for strikes they are geared mostly to vital areas in the legs and arms with a few with a few to the neck and organs allso there is two neck breaks and two shoulder dislocations using the hooking short power. in other forms the theme change in form one of the mantis multiple uses of (weeving hands) are worked. as well the differnt striking posture of the hands arms & feet

Each animal is a complete martail art and can be taught completly alone but it is traditonal to learn two animals to have a balance. this is a very old art that dates to the 14th century , and that is where the problem starts with conecting it to the other southern forms of mantis becuase they are not that old. so I make no claims to be conected to them but I am very currious to what might be familair or different between them.
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#266452 - 12/17/06 07:20 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tailiugug]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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hmm..I cant help but think to relate your art to 5 ancestors but I dont think its the same. But if you can somehow get some clips up or happen to find any videos online please share. I'm probably just as curious as you are about the similarities and differences between the mantis that I have encountered and grown to know and yours. I won't doubt that there are some similarities as most southern arts share something in common in relation to their punching and stance.
_________________________
"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266453 - 12/20/06 11:15 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tailiugug Offline
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Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 23
Loc: Utah
Thanks for your reply
I agree that there has to be some simalerities in our arts like maybe?? elbows held relaxed and down and close to body, shoulders kept square, feet often in a pigion or toes in posture. ect.
I would like to post some clips but dont have any idea how to do this I do have a very good video cam but after that. well lets say Im a gungfu guy not a computer tech. if you or someone can walk me through this I will post some clips

train hard and always remember to smile
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pain is joy

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#266454 - 01/12/07 06:02 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tailiugug]
jonwade Offline
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Registered: 09/21/06
Posts: 34
Loc: Essex, UK
Interesting vids - but remember there is usually much more to a style that you can see in one video. Mantis often incoorporates circulr movements (such as swimming dragons) to help balance the style, and also to counter opponents that attack direct (other mantis fighters and WC for example).

But mantis and WC are obviously much more closely related than WC an a northern Shaolin style.

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#266455 - 01/14/07 03:40 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: jonwade]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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ah a fellow Chow Ga practitioner, are u part of that other forum too?? (PM me about it)

well the videos can no way sum up the system. I made the thread simply to introduce SPM to the people in the forum seeing that the art was pretty much considered non-existent.

And I'm surprised at how similar SPM & WC are. Considering they are both 2 different arts with 2 different origins (as far as we know). And the Hakka dont have big numbers in Fujian. I mean all Hakka arts carry a similar feel but thats because they are all Hakka. People from Fujian lived in a different circle and yet came up with an art extremely similar to SPM. They both focus and approach things differently but in the end its practically the same.
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266456 - 01/18/09 05:38 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
tonglongfoo Offline
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Posts: 2
vid 4 is actualy a Chu Gar form

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#266457 - 01/18/09 05:48 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tonglongfoo]
tonglongfoo Offline
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#266458 - 03/17/09 12:58 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tonglongfoo]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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welcome to the FA forums!
seeing that you have some knowledge in SPM, mind if I ask where you're training at and what kind of mantis?
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"you're going to work till you wish you were dead and then keep going.." -Sgt Slaughter

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#266459 - 03/17/09 05:52 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: tonglongfoo]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Cool stuff!
Ok, I gotta ask - what is the 'mantis hand'?
Is it different in the various forms of SPM/NPM?

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#266460 - 04/02/09 08:12 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: ShikataGaNai]
IExcalibui2 Offline
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hmm...what comes to my mind is the shape of our hands. Fingers slightly split apart and arms/hands that seem to welcome the opponent into a trap.

Maybe something like this image?
http://www.markusmcb.co.uk/chowGar/images/grandmaster_yipsun.jpg
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#266461 - 04/03/09 01:26 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
SifuHax Offline
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Registered: 03/12/09
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Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
I dig how that "mantis hand" looks. I always thought mantis (n. and s.) looked pretty dope. I've seen this s. mantis practitioner doing push ups on phoenix eyes. Pretty sick.

Phoenix Eye fist: http://www.martialartsgathering.com/foto/chu-ka2.jpg
Except that the SPM guy's thumb was supporting the extended knuckle.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/98/211731600_1b65629689_m.jpg
I just thought this guy was a badass.
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#266462 - 04/03/09 07:38 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Yeah, I think that's it. Here's an example of a guy using it in a chi sao match -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqoFQgJl1Yc
He's a fut sao guy under James Cama, so there's more than likely some SPM in there (Cama trains/teaches SPM as well as FSWC)
Is there any application advantage to the hand technique in regards to contact, energy, position etc?

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#266463 - 04/04/09 02:41 AM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: ShikataGaNai]
SifuHax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Yea, that's Peter Bonet. He's pretty good. Cama, from my understanding, doesn't really teach fswc any more. He's real heavy with his s. mantis. Bonet got disqualified from that tournament for kicking a dude in the throat. I don't really like his style too much. Too flashy. Nick's chi sao and forms i think are my favourite. Same competition as the one you linked up there.

When caught between the ribs, the receiver will notice immediate contact. It's really good for shots to the face where knockout points are. Pressure points along the arms are great to attack with this fist in a chi sao. I always add them to my punching rounds. But unlike in that picture I have my thumbs supporting my extended knuckle. Focuses the energy, in my opinion, better.
_________________________
I am no sifu.

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#266464 - 04/04/09 04:03 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: IExcalibui2]
SifuHax Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/09
Posts: 84
Loc: Westfield, New Jersey
Quote:

too kind too kind
if I can get my camera back I might post up my own videos of my training or my fellow peers(if I get the chance to go back). And show another "style" of SM.




How're them home made vids coming along? I'm interested in seeing some mantis chi sao.
_________________________
I am no sifu.

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#266465 - 04/04/09 06:09 PM Re: Southern Praying Mantis!!! [Re: SifuHax]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Yeah, I watched a lot of vids from that competition and I gotta say, the mantis guys are using the WC footwork better than the WC guys, which is pretty telling of WC training these days. I saw way too much stiffness, forcing, leaning forward from the waist - but no real Biu Ma pressure going on, thus making a lot of attempts to take the center useless. That guy nick seemed to have a much better grasp of triangulating his attacks, getting control and working his way in. Liked his footwork a lot.

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