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#265762 - 06/22/06 05:23 PM Medium range round house kick
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
The instep is the striking target, power is generated by twisting the hips, the knee is raised, and aimed at the target, then snapped out, while the non kicking foot pivits into the target. This is all done very fast and off the back leg. It has caused many knockouts, and is linked in many combinations.

I have herd that this technique does not generate as much power as a long range round house kick that strikes with the ball of the foot. The back knee is raised, and turned to the side, then whipped into the target.

I think these two kicks generate a very different type of power, the medium range round house kick, is an impact kick, power is delivered by snapping the kick at the target, and twisting your hips into it. Where as the long range/traditional roundhouse kick generates penetrating power, because the power is delivered with the ball of the foot, and pushed through the target, rather than impacted to it.
The medium range roundhouse kick is used in a form (Taeguek 6 (Yuk Jang) and also in an ITF form. It has more in common with a Karate round house kick than the traditional long-range roundhouse kick. I have seen WTF and ITF Taekwondo practitioners use this kick in sparring quite a bit. I am talking about a back leg kick, with chambering, and hip twisting.


Edited by Mike_L (06/22/06 06:20 PM)
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#265763 - 06/22/06 05:44 PM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: Mike_L]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
A good evaluation of the kick and its uses.

I would argue however, that the long range roundhouse has a more concentrated impact because it has a smaller impact surface area. The medium range roundhouse spreads the power over the instep of the foot.
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#265764 - 06/22/06 05:48 PM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: Mike_L]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
The only thing I strongly disagree with is your statement that the full roundhouse has "pushing power." That is only the case if you don't hit very hard! The kick has alot of breaking power due to it's small surface area, and a lot of penetration because of the large momentum behind the kick. If you use it properly, you'll break bones rather than push someone back!

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#265765 - 06/22/06 06:19 PM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: Supremor]
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
That is true, But perhaps I should call it a penetrating kick. I only meant that the type of power generated is diffrent, not that each kick was not powerful. I will call it "penetration power" from now on, I will call the other type, "Impact power". (not that both kicks don't have impact, and penetration, just that they favore one slightly over the other and are used diffrently)
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#265766 - 06/23/06 02:57 AM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: Mike_L]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
You guys are comming up with to many terms for the same thing.

The difference between the kicks is fairly obvious now. In sports TKD the new round house is faster and is harder to anticipate due to the trajectory of the arc in which the leg follows.

The old way of using the round house where the knee is pivoted outwards. Generates more power due to the longer trajectory arc the leg follows. HOwever, this kick is telegraphed and is fairly easy to counter during competition.

One kick is used for sparring the other is used more for breaking. However, when striking with low kicks to the thigh, knee and shin, the old "way" is prefered, there is no need to chamber for those types of kicks.

-Tek aka TKD Masta Of Disasta
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#265767 - 06/23/06 07:23 AM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: TeK9]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

You guys are comming up with to many terms for the same thing.




See, that's the problem. The two kicks aren't the same at all. They're completely different in terms of body mechanics, execution, speed, power and application. Imho, they should be treated as two separate kicks. It's a wonder the WTF hasn't created a new name for the sparring version of the roundhouse.
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#265768 - 06/23/06 08:13 AM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: Leo_E_49]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
Leo,

I'm no sure if you were part of te forum at the beggining of the year, but I had lenthy conversations with people. I was trying to get them to acknowledge that the kicks between the WTF and ITF were slightly different. The majority of the WTF schools are sports geared. And many of the kicks they use are different from the ITF or other TKD schools.

Such as the roundhouse and the back kick.

What some people call the spinning side kick, the WTF calls back kick or spinning back kick. Rather than throwing an actual side kick, WTF practitioners actually kick backwards. A good example would be picturing a horse. When a horse kicks it lifts it's back legs and kicks straight backwards. Infact some WTF schools refer to the back kick as a horse kick.

The reason is because kicking straight back is much faster than lifting the knee out and to the side while spinning. Once again this was a way for the WTF to eliminate telegraphing while adding speed to the technique. Although traditionalist argue that the WTF back kick is not good for self defense because it is done so quickly that the practitioner does not have enough time to actually turn their head and view the target completely. Traditionalist claim with the spinning side kick, youhave enough time to turn your head to see the opponent. It's realy kind of a contradictory since most traditionalist would never recommend you turn your back on an opponent. However, if yopu look closer throwing a WTF style back kick is favored by competitiors not onlybecause it's quicker but also it doesn't leave your groin exposed such as the spinning side kick.

P.S. in WTF style TKD when you say back kick, it's assumed that your really reffering to a spinning back kick.
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#265769 - 06/23/06 08:26 AM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: TeK9]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

I'm no sure if you were part of te forum at the beggining of the year, but I had lenthy conversations with people. I was trying to get them to acknowledge that the kicks between the WTF and ITF were slightly different. The majority of the WTF schools are sports geared. And many of the kicks they use are different from the ITF or other TKD schools.




I understand the differences between the WTF, ITF and GTF, having trained with people from all of these federations.

Problem with this is that the official WTF roundhouse is almost identical to the ITF one. Chambering the kick is required or it is not a roundhouse in the federation's eyes.

If you try a sparring roundhouse in a grading, you will not pass the grading, at least where I trained.

This is why I believe the two should be referred to as different kicks, to eliminate this ambiguity. Plus, there are occasions where traditional roundhouse kicks are beneficial in sparring, when used in combination with sparring roundhouses, this can cause confusion in the explanation.

e.g.

My base combo is:

SR, SR, TR

where SR is a sparring roundhouse and TR is a traditional roundhouse. If I did not acknowledge the difference between the two, I would be forced to say to someone "use a triple roundhouse combo". This would be a terrible mistake because it would not have the desired effect which the above-described combo would.

I'm not concerned with the ITF here because they do not use sparring style roundhouses at all. What I'm talking about is the inability to convey which roundhouse to use within the WTF. This is not a federation vs. federation problem, it is an issue which results from splitting the WTF roundhouse into two totally different techniques and not creating separate names for the two of them.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/23/06 08:29 AM)
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#265770 - 06/23/06 09:58 AM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: Leo_E_49]
TeK9 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 2257
Loc: Northern California, USA
When I refer to traditional roundhouse I am talking about the one which the knee is chambered outward away from the body.

When I refer to the new roundhouse I am reffering to the one were the chamber is executed exactly as a front snap kick would start off.

The old way being more for demonstrations such as forms and brick breaking.

The new way being used more for sparring.

But in WTF there is no two distinct roundhouse kicks. There is only one kind of rear leg round house kick. At least this is from my experience. I think that many of the examples used to show this kick in sparring is due to poor technique by the sparer.

I bring u0p boxing as an example. When practicing boxers are using proper technique, however, this is not the case when they actually go out and box in the ring agaist an opponent. The lack of chambering in the kicks by the competitors could be the result of any number of factors such as distance timing, poor technique, ineffective reation to an opponents attack.

When I practice at my school sparring techniques (attacks and counter attacks) we practice the full roundhouse with chamber and all, it is not cut in half such as some like to call it cut 45 kick or I think bin refereed to it as bit chagi.

There are kicks reffered t as doubles and tripples. These are 2 or more kicks done as a single technique. Usually the first or second being sloppy feints and the last being the "money" shot so to speak to score the point. Clearly some of these kicks are messy, but it does not change the round kick, it's just a messy kick.

This is from my experience having trained in sports TKD for nearly 7 years now.
_________________________
"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

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#265771 - 06/23/06 10:05 AM Re: Medium range round house kick [Re: TeK9]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
What you say is true, the correct technique is to chamber the kick as you described. However, this is not in fact what is happening. And I disagree that it is due to poor form. These people who use this in sparring train to kick this way on purpose (at least where I was taught and in all the schools I visited). It is treated as a separate kick entirely by many schools but is not given a standard name, in various schools, different names are given to it.

Officially this variation of the kick does not exist. In reality it does, and I think it's a pity that such a commonly used kick is not given a destinct name.

P.S. Let's not go throwing around years trained in TKD as justification, just because I've studied 12 years in sport TKD and you've only studied 7 does not mean that either your opinion or mine is any more or less valid. Especially considering the fact that we are not discussing "official" WTF TKD techniques.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/23/06 10:07 AM)
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