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#265563 - 06/21/06 10:27 PM Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate?
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I have been browsing through Nagamine's books detailing his teachers and I noticed that much of the information he shares about Kyan and Arakaki refer to grappling training early in their martial careers. What strikes me even more is Kyan's father, a royal bodyguard, would train Kyan in "Sumo and karate wrestling." It is my belief that karate training always contained a cirriculum of a form of submission wrestling to enable the karateka to fully understand okinwan karate. This has of course been discontinued, but I think this is largely due to the changes that occured in okinawa in the early 1900s. Without this grappling training I feel it will be extremely difficult if not almost impossible to understand and utilize the classical kata of karate.

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#265564 - 06/22/06 01:01 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
If you talk grappling until takedown ? I say yes. But it is inherent to fighting. I have heared that in the 'old days' 2 persons would get into a woven basket with almost no room for the two to manouvre and train submissions or locking. But I never have heared about continuing the fight on the ground ala judo or ju jitsu.
There are 3 fighting ranges : you cannot touch eah other, you can kick, and you are in reach of each others arms. In the last case, grappling is part of the game. When I look at the goju-ryu curriculum, there are locks, takedowns and clinching techniques combined with kicks, knees, strikes/punches and elbow techniques. In free fighting, combining the entire arsenal at close range, stand-up grappling is part of the game.

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#265565 - 06/22/06 01:28 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: CVV]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, but okinawan sumo, which was connected to karate training contained both pinning and submission techniques aka groundfighting.

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#265566 - 06/22/06 01:45 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
here we go.
of course kata has standup grappling principles, there is no way to fight that close without it. but if you are suggesting full-blown ground grappling, you are coo-coo for cocoa puffs.

here's how we can logically analyze this:

Q: is there a significant portion of kata which has more than 2 points of contact to the floor?


Q: In order to train grappling effectively, is it better to train standing up and just imagine that it will work on the ground too...OR....actually train grappling in all ranges?


Q: do grapplers shadowbox? and if they do, is it while keeping minimum contact with the floor?

Q: are the physics of weight distribution/leverage/balance, etc different between standing and ground grappling?

Q: who are the best grapplers in the world? what are their training methods?

Q: did okinawans typically learn to grapple before or after gaining proficiency in forms? If you need grappling as a prerequisite to understand the forms, why use the forms for grappling? if forms were/are a training method to learn grappling, how come grapplers don't use forms?

* kata has standup grappling and clinch, I'd even buy standup submission.
* kata has ground grappling? the physics seem fundamentally different due to the center of gravity shifts from the multiple points of contact to the floor. there is no way those lessons can be learned from 2-point-contact-to-the-floor kata. a simple example, a release from a headlock while standing is 180 degrees different than escaping a headlock while kneeling or sitting or laying down.

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#265567 - 06/22/06 02:39 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Ed_Morris]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ed,

I like the way you think....and the way you wiggle your hips!

Good, logical points.

-B

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#265568 - 06/22/06 03:06 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Ed, Good questions! We all know the answers to them,but not all will admit.
If you practice grappling on the ground and claim it comes from kata,good for you,it'll be your little secret.
If you practice ground grappling by ground grappling,yay, you are learning.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#265569 - 06/22/06 04:35 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Tegumi perhaps was the father of okinawan Sumo, its wrestling of course. Its exact make up is difficult at best but my money would be on it containing groundwork and subs.

it isnt in the classical kata IMO, its something different but historically part of Okinawan Katare.

The kata as I see it have tuite (chin-na) and atemi methods which come from China, but Okinawanised.

Im working on where Ti fits into all of this, I may be some time...............
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265570 - 06/22/06 04:37 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
IMO Yes, some form of grappling specific training is needed to compliment classical karate, and tegumi is the historical aspect I talk of it isnt all in the kata after all eh!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265571 - 06/22/06 05:41 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
Yeah, I think the same way.
Grappling is trained by grappling. The physical movement for grappling was poss put in to kata to remember the movement.






Problem might have been that the techniques were forgotten.

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#265572 - 06/22/06 05:56 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Ed_Morris]
adaca Offline
Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 95
I think the techniques in kata are to remember the movement in kata not train it.

Then if the technique is known( this is where most of the problems are) it can be practiced be it on the ground or
standing up.

Problem was some techniques got either forgotten or changed beyond recognition.

Its called in this day and age by the good practioners re engineering.

Either way I will practice the techniques and the kata.

Which reminds me while typing this my maki wari is getting lonely.

Just a small point here.

For the use in competition when striking an opponent while the person doing the striking is lying or sitting.

Was it first taught standing or did certain people
start learning to strike while lying on the ground ?

It was learned standing, then the technique would be changed fo
r use, while sitting or lying on ones back

ous !!!



Edited by adaca (06/22/06 06:00 AM)

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#265573 - 06/22/06 08:42 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Mendulant,

As many things there are many possible answers.

Is grappling a prerequisite for Okinawan Karate? The answer is most definately NO, in the sense Okinawan karate students don't study grappling first.

On the other hand Sumo on Okinawa is a sport, and as Nagamine wrote, most of the young boys played it to some extent. Okinawan Sumo is grappling, but not in the sense there's ground work. It is a competition, starting with both individuals holding each others belt, and then maneuvering to have the other strike the ground first, including being thrown to counte throw one. I recently found a number of matches to watch. It does not appear to include ground technique, rather grappling to down an opponent.

BTW there are several reasons to not have ground grappling in Okinawan Sumo.One it's a sport and simply downing someone ends the contest. Two, they conduct it on a very large, very thick circle of sand. That provides relative protection from the throws, but only non-sane people want to get down in the sand and dig...... Okinawa is an island after all, and beaches abound.

So young men who studied karate on Okinawa may have played Sumo, but not as a prequesite for karate training.

Now karate technique is definately containing Sumo style counter grappling techniques (assuming the attacker begins by trying to grab you), and I have to do some study, but I think the techniques shown by Motobu Chokoi in his books are definatly grabbing counters, that came from several kata studies like Naifanchi.

At the same time grappling techniques are found throughout the Okinawan karate kata, as its only reasonable to assume at some level of engatement locks, throws, counter techniques, are used, especially as they're in the kata.

But most Okinawan karate specialised in the striking techniques and there is a good reason. The other skills take quite a bit of time to develop, and making sure the student had a destructive striking ability was as crucial as their being able to project someone to the ground.

It's fairly obvious on Okinawa, Sumo didn't attack Karate or a regular basis, or the structure of teaching would have shifted to develop the students ability to counter same faster.

Of course I'm still learning,
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#265574 - 06/22/06 04:00 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Actually I believe the purpose of okinawan sumo was to pin the opponent's shoulders to the ground, not just to down them, and a pin can be secured through submission techniques. The purpose is the pin is one of control and once control is obtained there is no need to go further. For me at least this lead right into karate's groundfighting methodologies. Once I control you I can do whatever I want. But then again, what do I know about Okinawan sumo? Actually this post is not so much about the rigid structure of kata containing groundfighting, but TRUE understanding of grappling enhancing a karateka's understanding of karate and karate IS kata. I don't know tegumi, but I know no form of effective grappling that does not include ground fighting. In the grappling I know of, and at least in Matsubayashi Ryu(maybe not the other forms of okinawan karate) once I grab you, you are going to hit the ground and I will finish you as you go down and once you get there for good measure. I also think there is a misconception as to sport groundfighting and street groundfighting. Even in BJJ you are taught to finish an opponent with headbuts, elbows, hammerfists, stomps, knee drops, and sometimes punches rather than armbars and triangle chokes. Which sounds like the Okinawan karate I know, maybe not the karate others know. Sport grappling is good to develop wrestling skill which can be invaluable in a fight, but a fight is not a wrestling match. Therefore there is not techniques in karate, but possibly what Nagamine refers to as "karate wrestling" as preparation for developing fighting skill. Again, okinwan karate IS a cultural phenomenon of okinawa. I assume that its sumo traditions evolved along side it and have changed in modern times as well. I doubt a video of todays okinwan sumo is a little different from that of which Nagamine refers.

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#265575 - 06/22/06 04:06 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Mendulant,

When I get home tonight I'll check on the Okinawan site that has the sumo competition. As I remember it, the second their shoulders touched the fight was over. Perhaps there are several layers to there art, a competition type and a more layered grappling art, but as I remember Nagamine, he focused on the sportive aspect.

So reseach called for.

I know from the competition there was no indiciation that anything was involved after the opponent was downed. But I do recall there was limited ground work when the person was thrown to get their shoulders to touch.

Actually it looked rather fun.

All I am suggesting is the Okinawan formal grappling tradition may not be the same as other traditions. That would not surprise me at all.

But it is interesting to observe.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265576 - 06/22/06 05:32 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Great posts people, very interesting and useful to me.

Something that helps me alot is to not think in isolation to much when defining things. As I understand it tegumi (sporting version okinawan sumo) is a primative method of grappling, the aspects that are of use to the karate art are standup grappling and limited floor work, which makes sense from a self defence perspective, all the strikes/locks/chokes are in the kata which are based on chinese kenpo methods. (and some have value on the floor by default).

Could you send the link on the okinawan sumo to me Victor, would appriciate that greatly, as you know I have spent alot of time trying to figure out tegumi and train my research in the dojo (supported by Seniors and my Sensei),

Some of the key things I have found is it gives us the capacity for free flow exchange (with as much resistance as one wants), it opens oppertunitys for strikes/locks and also shows us the importance of keeping balance and taking balance against street style assault. I think of it as the linking movements in a real situation, when one stumbles etc etc.

I firmly beleive the tegumi methods are a significant part of the older art that in most cases were not passed on, for various reasons.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265577 - 06/22/06 09:05 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Okinawan Sumo - agter watching the matches and reading Nagamine's description they are the same.

Nagamine "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters" page 140

'A bout is over only when the contestant falls on his back inside the ring. Additionally, a wrestler today must not twist the opponent's joints, grasp the collar, pull out his legs, push him down, or even use the hands to prevent the application of an opponent's technique during a bout.'

In fact during the entire bout, the hands are securly locked on the sides of the opponents obi.

The streaming video on sumo can be found about 2/3 the way down this page http://www.okinawabbtv.com/news/okinawa_news.htm#

And the site preceeds its clips now with a commercial, so you wait a bit before it starts.

Nagamine references how sumo players also cross trained in judo, and you'll hear judo mentioned on the video.

But Okinawan Sumo is what it is, based on their traditions.

No ground work, just grab someone and down them.

The strongest surmise, in contempory karate's infancy of the 1850's, the only competition was the Okinawn Sumo tradition. Judo wasn't invented in those years.

Lots to think about and even more to look at clearly. I really believe what you see is what was/is.

BTW the site I'm giving is a treasure trove of all aspects of Okinawa's life. You have to work to find what's there, little is in English (and what is is spelled quite differently). But you can see instead of surmise.

back to Okinawan grappling, with Judo likely in the schools (controlled by japan) eventually different aspects of grappling would be introduced, but I doubt if they had much influence in karate's development by that time. Just a parallel track to some extent.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265578 - 06/22/06 09:52 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Fascinating stuff, Victor. Very interesting to see the relationship (or lack thereof ) with the Okinawan grappling traditions.
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#265579 - 06/22/06 11:02 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Interesting, you are correct Victor, no submissions or pinns in Okinwan Sumo. Now, what of this "karate wrestling"?

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#265580 - 06/23/06 05:01 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Matt,

Not training in Okinawa, and only seeing snippets of their tradtions, at this time this is where I see grappling on the Island.

1. Okinawan Sumo probably is the oldest common tradition. Sort of their softball when people get together, you know town against town. The contemporary version (and it looks like according to Nagamine's accounts that it's been that way for a long time) is just that how to grapple when locked to an opponent and get them down.

In my mind it seems to reinforce that their arts weren't really directed towards building the ultimate street self defense. And whatever was the distant past is irrevelant, that time left long ago.

So you go back to the 1800's, this was the Okinawan public martial tradition, kids grew up with it.

2. Karate developed slowly, and for a very, very, very few. There was some public demonstration but till the introduction of some karate into the schools, it developed for it's own purposes, not for wide usage, or even directly for the street.

The only glimpse what karate could be used for comes from analyzing how karate technique fits into attacks, and there are definately locks, projections and takedowns in the kata.

But from it's public debut in the 1900's, and from instructors opening the doors to more people, the focus of 1900's instruction was on impace (striking and kicking), and the other potentials the public record (which we cannot totally believe because we weren't there) suggests only long term students really studied those other potentials. At least whatever was done prior to the modern era was\is not publically diseminated.

3. The 3rd grappling tradition Ryukyu Oke Hiden Bujutsu ws the more secret. Joe Swift has translated Matsuo kanenori Sakon's book 'The secret royal martial arts of ryukyu' into English but it is only availble through Germany. This Ti art contains a very wide range of techniques and weapons, and does contain grappling, but it is more akin to aikido, with small tehnique locks and projections. Until this art, that of Uehara Seikichi, was opened up to the public, it was very close. In fact the book also describes karate grappling as being done at a longer range than judo's and describes how much of karate grappling was set aside in modern times.

But I'm quite sure my assumptions may be flawed, for I'm in New Hampshire, not Okinawa. Still one tries to make sense of this.

In fact in the states, until Oyata opened up his personal interpretation of karate's useage, there was little public disussion that karate contained grappling, and those who worked on those traditions were not announcing it.

Of course in the end, what matters is how our own art is shaped, not what the past was.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265581 - 06/23/06 05:09 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Oooops, I forgot one other source of information detailing Karate's grappling tradition.. The books written in the 1930's in Japan, clearly show grappling techniques as part of the process.

The most important is Mutsu's 1933 'Ryukyu Kempo' with 1/2 the book showing applications of karate technique. He had been an early student of Funakoshi, but a trip to Okinawa in 1930 left him with a great desire to share what he had acquired.

BTW, Joe Swift is working on a translation, but the book is very large and it will take quite a while till he completes it.

So information is available, but it takes work to find it.

BTW Mutsu after the book was published, traveled to Hawaii to share, and eventually disappeared from public view in Japan. His book, published 2 years before Funakoshi's Master Text in 35, contained a wider range of kata eventually adopted by the JKA. His text also had extensive charts, but not meridians, rather 'modern' medical type charts of the body's structures, and of course the obligatory section on where to strike.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265582 - 06/24/06 03:18 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Thankyou for the link Victor, first time I have seen okinawan sumo (albeit in video eh!), I hope to see some 'live' next year!

What was interesting was that each competitior literally hooked their hands on the belt (perhaps to do with the hara being our centre?), obviously making that the focus of the off balancing (although im sure alot off other things go on as well), and as you say once someone is 'flipped' onto their back its all over.

I also found it interesting how if you lifted someone they just hang there to be tossed over!

Excellent clip, really highlights to me the sport of okinawan sumo and gives me another reference point for my tegumi research. I think if we allow ourselves a little imagination and a big dollop of sensibleness then we might begin to see what perhaps tegumi of old was all about.

I like to think of the obvious developments of karate jutsu - karatedo and jujutsu - judo, kenjutsu - kendo etc etc, if I apply the same logic to the okinawan sumo I feel im getting somewhere, of course I could be getting nowwhere - but that isnt important is it!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265583 - 06/30/06 04:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81




Edited by Deltaforce69 (06/30/06 04:54 AM)

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#265584 - 06/30/06 04:59 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Deltaforce69]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Deltaforce,

Isshinryu was originally taught exactly as you describe.
Unfortunately one of my instructors must have had a really good imagination.

The late Sherman Harrill spent 40 years really working on the 8 Isshinryu kata, nothing extra, just really finding as much of each techniques applicatoin potential as he could.

He trained alogside my original instructor on Okinawa in the late 50's early 60's. And by happenstance I met him in 95.

The few times I was able to train with him he only shared a piece of how he used Okinawan karate, and I've documented 800 applications from those sessions.

Many of which were locks, throws, etc. all done exactly from kata execution and he could make them work against anybody. And her regularly shared with many from other Okinawan styles too because the same technique potential was in their kata.

He never disagreed with the primary tool was to strike someone, but then he showed what was really there too, even if the Okinawan's didn't show it that way.

Again by circumstance my own studies had started moving in that direction.

And for the record there's aikido and there's aikido. Some does look fancy, other paths are very very very small circle, the technique is used and the attacker graciously complies by sticking their face into the ground, that simple.

Just a slightly different take on things.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265585 - 06/30/06 05:00 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Deltaforce69]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Just read your post before you edited it

Some of the points are I think up for discussion

Naifanchi

On the website the version is different than i practice do you have the full version?

book form?

Ok so what about bunkia?

what bunkia did they teach you?

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#265586 - 06/30/06 05:03 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Victor

Could I poss see some of the documented uses you have?

thanks

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#265587 - 06/30/06 05:14 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Andy,

If you drop on by I'd be pleased to share them with you.
Which isn't a joke, a few on this list have met me. Of course I only share them in the context of knowing the appropriate Isshinryu kata.

I had tried many times to convince Sherman to write a book, but his answer was they need to be felt one on one. As he was my friend as well as instructor I only share them the same way.

I also don't do clinics, but the student who continues his school does. I'm sharing information about a training session he's holding soon, below.

Victor

Kerker's Isshin-Ryu Karate Dojo
128 Broadway Street
Carson IA 51525

PRESENTS

~Harrill's Isshin-Ryu Karate Family~

16th Annual Seminar

Friday August 11th 2006 and Saturday August 12th 2006
Griswold Community Center
Griswold IA.

Friday August 11th Weapons Seminar $35.00
10:00a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (Lunch on your own)
Griswold Community Center

Saturday August 12th Basics/Kumite - Kata Seminar $50.00
10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (Lunch Provided)

Cost for both days $70.00

~ WHITE GI'S PREFERRED~

DOJO IN CARSON OPEN ALL WEEK TO TRAIN

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#265588 - 06/30/06 05:19 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
I would love to attend a seminar and will do one day.Untill then is there nothing documented you could let me see?

I think it would of been great if he had wrote a book.

thanks

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#265589 - 06/30/06 05:34 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

Nothing personal but my notes are private for my own use and my students. The material is Sherman's. After his death others within the Isshinryu community asked the same of me, and as I had given my notes (both previously to Sherman, and then to John Kerker) I referred them to John as to whether he wished to share them.

It's not a question of being selfish. First one has to have studied the kata techniques used for a long time, and even in Isshinryu there is considerable variation between different schools, and my notes are of course slanted in my own undestanding of Isshinryu, so to others they might just be words.

I also have considerable research I've done for decades, which is part of my students practice,but I treat it no differently.

And while the techniques I know do begin to understand Isshihnryu's potential, it doesn't mean to do Isshinryu you have to have 800 applications , or 80. perhaps only 8. They really describe a range of study as well as technical practice.

Speaking for myself, instruction is a very personal form of sharing, and I choose where and when.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265590 - 06/30/06 05:34 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Deltaforce69]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Just to give you an idea where I am coming from.

Some of my training
Maki wari/ heavy bag work
Bare knuckle punches of all description fist vertical /horizontal
Other strikes.
Forearm blocks/strikes conditioning against the heavy bag maki wari

Grip conditioning using methods from weigth training
and the older methods of
kami
Chishi

Kicks all description from target areas like the shins/feet stomps to the top of the head.

Kata
Bunkia
running

weigth training


grappling/sparring

footwork

so ok inpart perhaps it might be some what the same as okinawan training Im not sure I have never been.

Either way I think you might have a good contribution
so the question of the kata? Do the okinawan authority publish books

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#265591 - 06/30/06 05:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Ok Thanks Victor.

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#265592 - 06/30/06 05:44 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

Do the Okinawan authorities publish books (about kata)?

The answer is both simple and complicated.

Nagamine Shoshin has published a book on his Shorin Ryu "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do", and it does describe his kata, in a picture by picture view.

It does not share application potential.

Hiagonna Morio has publised a series on Goju Kata and its applications (very hard to find anymore).

In the 1920's and 1930's Okinawan's in Japan did publish on their art (Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni), and touched slightly on kata application. Mutsu in 1933 (one of Funakoshi's students who then went to Okinawn in 30 to study further) published 'Karate Kempo' with extensive karate technique applications, but it is a number of years away from being translated into English and then published.

For the most part, contemporary Okinawan's have refrained from publishing books on their art.

There are video tapes available, but then books or video tapes can only capture a slice of any art. Real training takes literally decades of work with knowledgeable instructors. No book or video can capture but a slight glimpse of those paths.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265593 - 06/30/06 05:56 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
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Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53

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#265594 - 06/30/06 09:18 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
ken harding Offline
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Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
Couldnt get the stream to work but the belt grabbing back hold style is not so new if that'what it is. My great grandfather was a a champoin in Switzerland of something called Schwingi, the Nordic countries have Glima and so on. Just want to get the stream to fire to see how similar the stuff is.
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Heijo Shin

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#265595 - 06/30/06 09:39 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ken harding]
ken harding Offline
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Finally...and yep looks like classical backhold type wrestling to me which is interesting ....Shoshinkan...one day I'll take you to a tournament in the Bernes Oberland...you might find much to recognise
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Heijo Shin

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#265596 - 06/30/06 10:00 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

Different book: Mutsu's book is described here:
http://seinenkai.com/articles/swift/art-mutsu3.html
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265597 - 07/03/06 09:32 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
a link to mongolian wrestling, possible 'linked' with tegumi wrestling???? advert first then some action.

http://dsc.discovery.com/promos/videopla...76abe641875f643

Feel free to post the clip I sent you Victor I have no idea how to do that. sorry if i have gone a little of topic but I see these practises as tegumi.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265598 - 07/04/06 06:02 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ken harding]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
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can we have a go Ken ???????
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265599 - 07/04/06 07:15 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
ken harding Offline
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Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
Quote:

can we have a go Ken ???????




Lol, we can play a little some time, I'll have to invoke the spirit of my great grandfather the Schwingerkonig though.
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Heijo Shin

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#265600 - 07/04/06 07:30 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ken harding]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
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I meant on the trip mate, I want the costume and everything!

Anyhows we shall all be doing a bit of tegumi on the 12th which is good fun all round!
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265601 - 07/04/06 07:41 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
ken harding Offline
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Nah those shorts...ouch! I'm hunting down some old time Schwingen stuff in the hope of finding an old pic (hard as the guys are forbidden from advertising even today!) or some old writeups ...if I get anything I'll chuck it on my site as an interest thing.
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Heijo Shin

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#265602 - 07/04/06 07:10 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Chi'n-na, =grappling
chuían-fa= Chinese martial art
"Te"= the original fighting art on Okinawa( supposed to have been bare knuckle boxing).
Plus other techniques from other countries.

All put together to form Kara-te Jitsu
Kata was a means of passing on and remembering techniques .

Karate do was the changing of kara-te Jitsu to physical exercise and removing the self defence aspect so kata does have grappling moves

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#265603 - 07/04/06 07:43 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ANDY44]
shoshinkan Offline
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Im not sure I agree with your definition of Te, personal research leads me to believe that it is a sophistacted weapons led art (sword, spear etc etc not kobudo) with a 'soft' hand art not unlike aikido.

Im not convinced te has much to do with karate either! As you say the main elements being Chinese Chuían-fa (tui-te and Atemi, Kyusho), and in my opinion Okinawan tegumi (wrestling).

But im happy to say that many different opinions on this exsist and all have some merrit, karate is a 'big' diverse art afterall, certain systems of karate may of course incorporate elements of Te within them more so than others - im working on that!
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#265604 - 07/04/06 09:42 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Te developed into udundi which is palace hand. Matsumora took udundi and added chuan fa from china and principles from Jigen Ryu kenjutsu to create shorin. He trained many royal bodyguards in this "new" art each of whom developed it to fit their own martial philosophies and body types. "Real" karate still contains principles of Udundi which as you mentioned is akin to akido and has the jujitsu of the Satsuma Clan, hence much of the grappling of karate which most don't believe exists.

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#265605 - 07/05/06 07:26 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi

Most dont believe grappling exists in kata then the questions of things such as stances start. As in certain stances are meant to strengthen the legs.They might ( I use squats) but when applied to strike and/or grappling situations the different uses of stance become clearer. I think the end product was a fist/strike/ kick orientated method with grappling skills
included. I think kata was a means of remembering techique
and it was assumed that a high rate of kick/ punch/strike/elbow/ head butt at different target areas could be maintained along with grappling.

Thus the high use of basics.

The fact that the okinwans used good hand conditioning techniques leads me to believe that a lot of throwing techniques done today by holding clothing was actualy done years ago by grabbing clothing and /or flesh.

Sad that the techniques got lost.

Although given there are still okinwans practicing their different styles did they?

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#265606 - 07/13/06 08:17 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: CVV]
Fordareals Offline
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Posts: 18
Hello everyone. I use to frequent this site but was summarily booted to the curb for arguing with certain moderators who swear that traditional arts especially karate, are none-too-good for self preservation or that I am a miscreant who has nothing to offer. I will try my best to be cool. Since leaving I have often checked out this forum just to see how many people would come around to the reality side of things. I see that a lot of practitioners are trying to understand the essence of the karate they do by researching the many Okinawn ryu. It is refreshing to know that I was pretty on point and that it just takes some a while to catch on.

Anyway I'm glad to be here and to contribute (if it's wanted).

Back on topic... This question was asked "Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan (sic) karate?", my opinion is that the answer is "yes", and that in fact grappling skills are a prerequisite for the well-rounded karate-ka, kickboxer, boxer, chuan fa stylist or anyone claiming to be a good fighter.

This is an excerpt from Hohan Soken (as told to Ernest Estrada). I know some of you have read this and some have not. It's something that echoes Funakoshi Gichin in his book "Karate-Do: My Way of Life":

"Karate is much more than simple punching and kicking and blocking. It is the study of weaponry and of grappling...

(Soken-sensei used the Spanish word for wrestling when describing this art-form but I felt that a more apt term would be grappling - much like Japanese-style jujutsu. He stated that many people often referred to the Okinawan grappling arts as Okinawan-style wrestling mainly because it was never systematized and looked like a free-for-all form of fighting.)

Soken-sensei continued by stating that as a youngster on Okinawa, that grappling was taken very seriously and it was not uncommon for individuals to suffer broken arms and legs as a result of taking part in this light form of entertainment. Soken-sensei would use the terms "te-kumi" or "gyaku-te" as identifying this old Okinawan art form.

(The danger of reminding Soken-sensei of the "old methods of playing" was that he would often stand up, grab you, and then apply one of these painful methods of common people entertainment - he enjoyed watching Americans "squeaking like a mouse who had been stepped on." -- Editor]

Grappling is an old Okinawan custom that is commonly practiced in all villages. In America, the children played at "cowboys and indians. " In Okinawa we played by grappling with each other. We would have contests for grapplers in every village and one village would pit their best grapplers against all comers. It was very exciting.

Some people see the grappling and call it Okinawan jujutsu but this is incorrect. It is the old method called "ti." Ti { this is pronounced in the old dialect of Okinawa -- it sounds like the word "tea" -- ed. } practice was very common during the turn of the century but with the Japanese influences, these methods have almost disappeared."


So he wasn't talking about just pinning someone, throwing them by their obi/belt or taking them down he was speaking of a NHB style wrestling that did entail submissions and the like.

Karate grappling is not Judo or JJJ. Its groundfighting is not exactly like BJJ- its aim is to finish things quickly and to keep the karate person on their feet as much as possible- but it does share some slight similarities with other submission sports/arts.

Balance/moderation is "ki"...


Edited by Fordareals (07/13/06 11:55 PM)

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#265607 - 07/13/06 08:41 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Glad to see you back OPDKMVFDR. Again, the points you make is the same thing I was trying to illustrate. I personally think I took grappling skill for granted because I started wrestling the same time I started karate and naturally integrated the two and used my grappling skills during kumite. Although I was never formally trained in submissions I used my blocking techniques as joint locks because it just felt right. And this was in 1990 before the UFC.

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#265608 - 07/14/06 03:07 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
My question is just because Grappling was a part of the culture does not mean that it was a part of Tode? Does it, No more then wrestling is a part of boxing as it existed in USA (I know the Greeks/Pankarantion/ African/ Indos combined both).

So is being familar with an system the same as being part of it? Medulant I agree 100% that knowing and training like a wrestler/track and boxer will make you a better Karateka just from a stamina and strength stand point but it doesn't mean that these skills are a part of Karate system you were trained in. Though you say they were?

Tode was an simplifed various of Quan'fa and the chinese didn't encourage grappling on the battlefield while fighting using weapons r empty hand. Apparanetly the Japanese took more prisoners??? All this is just cander.

Though Grapppling is no doubt apart of the Okinawan culture but I see no evidence that it was prerequsite for Tode r part of the original systems/Quanfa? But then again most chinese system did study a form of Chin'na??? And there are Chinese forms of MA that train in just wrestling like moves??

But the Shaolin 5 animal schools did not teach this as thier strong suite. And it certainly was not brought back from China, by the Te masters maybe because they already knew how to grapple.

Its a well known fact that wrestling in the Ryu kyu Island goes back to anicent times. There was a note of a Famous Karateka killing wrestler with abdomen or was it between the testicle and anus kick? (I can't remember) in its short past history.



Edited by Neko456 (07/14/06 04:11 PM)
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#265609 - 07/14/06 10:53 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Neko456]
Fordareals Offline
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Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 18
Quote:

My question is just because Grappling was a part of the culture does not mean that it was a part of Tode? Does it, No more then wrestling is a part of boxing as it existed in USA (I know the Greeks/Pankarantion/ African/ Indos combined both).




Yes and the proof is in Nagamine's and Funakoshi's writings. We are not talking about western sport we are talking about Tode jutsu. Did you read my quote from Hohan Soken? Why would he need to make things up? Why would he mention the fact that karate was about kobujutsu and grappling too?

Quote:

So is being familar with an system the same as being part of it? Medulant I agree 100% that knowing and training like a wrestler/track and boxer will make you a better Karateka just from a stamina and strength stand point but it doesn't mean that these skills are a part of Karate system you were trained in. Though you say they were?




They are a part of good Shorin Ryu and Goju Ryu, this I know. If you don't do good variants of Naha Te and Shuri Te then it may be missing. I have always learned the grappling aspects (ti) and the atemi aspects, even while taking Shorinkan.

Quote:

Tode was an simplifed various of Quan'fa and the chinese didn't encourage grappling on the battlefield while fighting using weapons r empty hand. Apparanetly the Japanese took more prisoners??? All this is just cander.




Okinawan karate is not and was not a simplified version of chuan fa. It has elements of chuan fa in it, but it is a true mixed system with Okinawan, Chinese, Japanese and even some SE Asian MAs ideas in it.

Quote:

Though Grapppling is no doubt apart of the Okinawan culture but I see no evidence that it was prerequsite for Tode r part of the original systems/Quanfa? But then again most chinese system did study a form of Chin'na??? And there are Chinese forms of MA that train in just wrestling like moves?? But the Shaolin 5 animal schools did not teach this as thier strong suite. And it certainly was not brought back from China, by the Te masters maybe because they already knew how to grapple

Its a well known fact that wrestling in the Ryu kyu Island goes back to anicent times. There was a note of a Famous Karateka killing wrestler with abdomen or was it between the testicle and anus kick? (I can't remember) in its short past history.




The Chinese have a saying "geija quanfa jian er xizhi" or practice every boxing style as one. They don't mean boxing as in striking exclusive arts but the "hands" or knowledge of a fighting system.

If you can't wrestle at all you are not a real fighter, plain and simple. Knowing just the striking aspect of fighting is insufficient if you want to claim you're a great all around fighter. Grappling isn't the most important aspect of good MAs training but it is as salient as all the other aspects of a well rounded traditional style.

The Chinese have two terms for MAs: one is "wu shu" (shu is "jutsu" in Japanese) which is defined as just the technical skill aspect of MAs. The other is "wuyi" which is a broader definition that represents the martial art concept as well as the broader meaning and higher level of understanding attained with true martial arts training. In other words the term "bun bu ru" as coined by Matsumura Sokon defines what a true martial ART is- technical and concrete as well as esoteric and intellectual; the complete gamut of skills needed to call one's self a true artist of anything.

Once you stop listening to everyone else and go and find the answers yourself you will see that most culture's fighting traditions have elements of striking, wrestling and weapons training as well as the historical, scientific, familial and abstract aspects. If one of these is missing you are practicing what the Chinese would call a "flowery method" or the "bujutsu of intellect" or the "bujutsu of nominals" as Mastumura put it in his "Buccho Iko".

So IMO grappling is a very important aspect of true traditional training- especially in good karate, whether before, concurrent to or after you are training in a supposed striking style. Hopefully grappling is inherent to your system, otherwise go seek it out or lack fundamental fighting knowledge forever, and as a karate stylist important aspects of the "completeness" of true karate.

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#265610 - 07/17/06 01:53 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
What I find funny about this supposed grappling/groundwork/ osaekomi waza that only TRUE Tode jitsu trained person owns, that only a few know and train in. Which to me makes me think they didn't stress it that its not that effective and not really what Tode-jitsu is about. Really unless actually been combat, with someone trying to kill or miam, you do you know what it feels like to use Tode-jitsu in a conflict. Training in and fighting against people in real fights, trying seriously to hurt you. Or cross training against different system in challenge matches or just to compare systems to understand its effectiveness. Fighting standing and on the ground, back to standing before the UFC and MMA. There are people that knew this in 1970s-80s and maybe in 1900s.

You talk of how the True system encoroperated ground work as effective as Judo/Jujitsu/Aikido or Silat. I disagree unless you are telling me that some of the Masters of Ryu systems didn't know or use these grappling techniques. I could see having a secret society of Tode jujits Men that know how to fight in the air, standing on the ground, I'm not saying thats not true because my system does some light grondwork in its Bunkias and Kisos. But just like the modern combatants they stress one element over the other. I maintained that Tode-jujits that became Karate STRESSED striking that included some others elements of all these things we speak of granted, but it Stressed a quicker end Striking.

As for incororating things from all the cultures that it traded with maybe, thats a rumor of all the arts, but I believe that similaries of thse systems are based on the limited weapons of the human body. There only so many ways the 9 striking weapons, throwing and grappling methods that human body can be used.

Not that some systems didn't take from other systems but they stressed a common ground, Striking. In my system we do Grappling/ground work from numerous systems. But we stress Striking.

Some say that Aikido doesn't have REAL grappling or ground because its not stressed as much as Judo or BB Jujitsu, the question asked must be if its not stressed does that mean it doesn't exist. It exist in Karate/Tode but its not Stressed.

Your secret soceity doesn't make it so, no matter how superior trained your secret group is. Tell me more about how it was trained that Nagamine, Funakoshi and the others trained it in their art. Have you read the supposed encounter in 1929 with Motobo, Funakoshi, Funakoshi's student Ohtsuka (Wado-ryu's founder) and Motobo's guest the 4th dan in Judo. Grappling was not Karate's strong suit unless you know Jujitsu like Ohtsuka. Did this happen who knows, it definitely stress that Grappling was not his strong suit. Nor does the rumored fish hook placed on the Judo man that challenged Master Kyan. But I guess the fish hook is a standing Grappling move.
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#265611 - 07/17/06 04:54 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Neko456]
ken harding Offline
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Posts: 721
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This is a fascinating thread in part because I practise a style that is made up of jujitsu and karate yet in which I have to hunt down all the jj bits because they don't get taught much any more.

In my mind grappling and striking are just two bits of it. Aaah well...of hunting again.
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#265612 - 07/17/06 05:22 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ken harding]
shoshinkan Offline
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forgive my lack of knowledge on the wado ryu aspect Ken, but couldnt you find jujutsu training in the system that the founder trained in (or similair?), surley that would be the best route, and an extrely authentic approach?

For me its a little different as I practise Okinawan Shorin Ryu and as such I am convinced Chin-Na from China is the most relevant historical art to study to understand my karate (classical kata element) better, (slight plug for the course I have organised in the UK! LOL).

This aspect is different from the tegumi tradition, which as im beining to understand is essentially freeflow wrestling (and not in the classica kata) proberly not disimilair from the Chinese art of Shuai Chiao, I will send you a nice document on that.
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#265613 - 07/17/06 06:13 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Once you stop listening to everyone else and go and find the answers yourself

Hi

I have done.Looks like a long journey(again)

I have found certain grappling moves that are combined with strikes in a flowing usable manner.The ones i found were oc course in trad karate kata. and they work.

How ever there has to be more

Could i ask you
Where would you suggest the ground work techniques are in kata?
and which kata?


I totley agree with all you have said.
But the problem is having the knowledge or finding the people with the knowledge to be able to find the answers.


So could you please tell me what styles you studied?
and the methods used?



Just a point I would realy like
a diagram of Suparimpei goju version if any body has one please??.

And yes I know it is better if someone personaly teaches me, that is happening(private lessons) but I can only absorb so much in an hour

Thanks


Edited by ANDY44 (07/17/06 06:42 AM)

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#265614 - 07/17/06 06:16 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ken harding]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi Ken.

I sort of know what you mean. Talking to wado practioners over the years, I think even in the early days of wado in the Uk it was hard to find some ome who had a good knowledge of the ju jitsu element.

So have you sourced it ?


Thanks Andy

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#265615 - 07/17/06 06:22 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
ken harding Offline
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Loc: UK
Shinto Yoshin Ryu died out aside from the Takamura Ha line which is active but up in Blackpool. The chap up there is on my list of people to contact to try to resurrect this aspect somewhat.
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#265616 - 07/17/06 06:29 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ken harding]
ANDY44 Offline
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Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Hi

Is this ju jitsu club in blackpool? or wado?
Just interested.

Thanks

Andy

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#265617 - 07/17/06 08:59 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ANDY44]
ken harding Offline
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#265618 - 07/17/06 12:41 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ANDY44]
Neko456 Offline
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Andy44 wrote - Just a point I would realy like
a diagram of Suparimpei goju version if any body has one please??.

Suparimpei is a very complicated and long kata as you mention best taught in person. And with a understanding of the other forms.

I don't know why we are talking about Wado-ryu, it was not one of the original Tode Ryukyu Island arts.

It is bascailly a combination of Shotokan and jujitsu among other things, a product of Japan.
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#265619 - 07/17/06 05:58 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Fordareals Offline
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If anyone wants to know what style I claim just check my profile.

Neko: Is English your first language? If not then your posts make sense. You know what you know about karate. I know what I know. Let's just leave it at that. It's good if you have questions or don't understand some fundamental truths about good Okinawan karate. Go look for the answers. Don't take mine or anyone else's word for a d-mn thing.

All others: There are ground fighting positions following takedowns in some Shuri kata. It just depends on which variant you train in. Matsubayashi's Gojushiho is similar but not the same as Mtasumura Seito's version. Same for Chinto. The knee on chest/head position seen in our versions is missing from the other Shorin Ryuha's, Isshin Ryu as well as Shito Ryu and Shotokan. So yes it may not be apparent if you practice a different version from ours. But it is still implied if you know how to interpret it- especially with oyo bunkai.

Later guys...

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#265620 - 07/17/06 06:29 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
ANDY44 Offline
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Neko: Is English your first language? If not then your posts make sense. You know what you know about karate. I know what I know. Let's just leave it at that. It's good if you have questions or don't understand some fundamental truths about good Okinawan karate. Go look for the answers. Don't take mine or anyone else's word for a d-mn thing.



Hi

Nekos first language is english. And I see his points. To the best of my knowledge there is no realy positive ground fighting techniqies in the karate katas made available and given that strikes are not always an option in a street fight/self defence situation I cant understand why there isnt?.

Just a point you say go look for the answers?
where do you suggest?
Top karate ka have had to re engineer kata to try and get answers.

I have found some answers but they are in okinawa.
but still no major floor grappling techniques as such


Neko the wado thing was just a question.

Regards the kata,I am having private lessons but would like to speed things up. I do have a working knowledge of some goju katas

Thanks


But I am just a mere mortal 1st dan black belt.

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#265621 - 07/17/06 07:48 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ANDY44]
medulanet Offline
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Have your ever seen the streetfightings apps in GJJ? They are different from the sport. Karate is similar in this way. Ground grappling in karate will not look like a BJJ competition or training session. Like FDR said about the knee on belly/head is the main mount position in karate. With the strikes its a knee ride and ground n pound. Train it right and it may work for you too. Again there are a lot of key locks in karate grappling application as well. Look closely and you will even have some techs when some one is in your guard such as a keylock if they put their hand on the ground after you bump them or sit up and go right into a sweep. These are only a few of the ground fighting techs found in okinwan karate. Again, groundfighting is not the main aim of karate and the classical kata, striking is. But the basics are there with a few unique twists. On second thought you are right, there is not ground fighting in karate, and if you ever fight me or one of my students, I HOPE you think we don't know any.

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#265622 - 07/17/06 08:13 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Have your ever seen the streetfightings apps in GJJ? They are different from the sport. Karate is similar in this way. Ground grappling in karate will not look like a BJJ competition or training session. Like FDR said about the knee on belly/head is the main mount position in karate. With the strikes its a knee ride and ground n pound. Train it right and it may work for you too.


I train ground and pound one of my favourite techniques. But I trained the technique with a vale tudo fighter,



I can competition fight on the ground but that came from judo/ju jitsu.


Again there are a lot of key locks in karate grappling application as well. Look closely and you will even have some techs when some one is in your guard such as a keylock if they put their hand on the ground after you bump them or sit up and go right into a sweep.

Funny how a techniques names change. Key lock?
I was using it in judo competition in the 198os years ago one was called Udegarami



These are only a few of the ground fighting techs found in okinwan karate. Again, groundfighting is not the main aim of karate and the classical kata, striking is. But the basics are there with a few unique twists.

On second thought you are right, there is not ground fighting in karate, and if you ever fight me or one of my students, I HOPE you think we don't know any.

Donít think I said there were none, think I might have said very little.

Well my competition fighting days were supposed to be at an end , but seeing what is about now a days I might reconsider.

Got any videos of you guys?

And I am looking for a diagram of Goju Suparinpei, having private lessons at the moment, but would like to speed things up.


Edited by ANDY44 (07/17/06 08:25 PM)

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#265623 - 07/17/06 09:15 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ANDY44]
medulanet Offline
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Nope, no video. Again, video is good for a reference, but not true learning of classical karate. You should be able to follow the basics of what I wrote, its nothing too revolutionary. What matters in the end is how you train what you have and if you can make it work.

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#265624 - 07/17/06 10:15 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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I understand that someone's practice has grappling...I still fail to see kata containing those principals. there is no kata which is down on all fours and you can't learn grappling without resistence. there is no 'shadow-box' for grappling. is that an unreasonable or mis-informed/non-experienced statement?

[edit] of course I mean ground grappling.

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#265625 - 07/17/06 10:18 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: ANDY44]
Fordareals Offline
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As for Neko- I don't see his points and I don't think he really understands karate yet. I get that from what he has said about this post.

You are right Andy to say there are no really positive ground fighting points in most karate that people can find or have trained in. You are also right to say that many supposed top karate-ka have had to generate brand new answers and techs to replace what their style(s) never taught. If you are not compelled by the Megaverse to seek and find the answers or if you need my suggestions then I have nothing to say. We are put in our place in space-time for a reason. Not every surgeon knows or even can do the same thing, but the layman doesn't know any better. He/she will think that all physicians are the same, let alone surgeons in a specific subspecialty.

As for answers I found them and sometimes they found me. Others who REALLY want to or believe that it is possible that what I'm and others are saying could be true MAY find them too. My opinion is that not everyone is deserving to know certain things. That's reality.

I guess I've been lucky as has Medulanet, because we've train karate in a a different manner. Not better just different. There are real good karate teachers here, but they are few and far between. The thing is would someone who is easily mislead or has no ability to discern what is good vs. garbage know when his karate style and instructor are mediocre, status quo or just plain suck? Hmmm... From the evidence I tend to think--- "Aww H3ll Nawww"!

To say that the progenitors of Okinawa Te did not know how to fight on the ground is to be more than a bit presumptuous and naive. Ground-and-pound is a technique that I saw a lot of HS guys who never even wrestled do when I was a teen. G-n-P is Streetfighting 101, it is by no means something you need to train in. Playing backyard football, or football for that matter (American-style) is where a lot of non wrestlers get it. Wrestling with your brothers or friends will teach you that "technique" if you can call it that.

Do you guys really train to G-n-P? Little kid brawling techs like this are neither martial nor art. Wrestling around should be done when you're a child. Thats when you should figure all that junk out. Next thing the MMA jock-riders will be telling us that the ghetto-hook punch needs to be trained in order to execute it in a effectual manner.

As for GJJ/BJJ, I did it for a bit, learned enough to understand its intent and realized that it is one very small part of self-preservation. I also started in Kodokan Judo, but that was more fun than real. Still every little bit helps and it gave me a good base as a child. Oh yeah learn how to sprawl and get your underhooks in and this does negate a lot of attempted lower body takedowns.

What is really hilarious is that everyone who doesn't do traditional arts seems to think that all karate/chuan fa types are single-minded and unifaceted. I boxed, did Judo, trained GJJ/CJJ with Ryron Gracie and Caique, played football, had quite a few real fights, did 3 styles of Shorin Ryu, and felt my current style AND instructor was the best of them all.

Just a personal preference and opinion based on my angle. Not everyone is of the same ilk, just like not all karate was created equal. KnowhatImean?

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#265626 - 07/18/06 04:28 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

I understand that someone's practice has grappling...I still fail to see kata containing those principals. there is no kata which is down on all fours and you can't learn grappling without resistence. there is no 'shadow-box' for grappling. is that an unreasonable or mis-informed/non-experienced statement?

[edit] of course I mean ground grappling.




Ed, yes these are mis-informed and non-experienced statements. There is shadow boxing for grappling. Go to any wrestling meet and you will see it when the wrestlers warm up on the mat. Yes you do need to train grappling with resistance just like striking. I am talking about training the grappling with resistance. The same way you train any bunkai of kata you train the grappling, take the parts out and train them with a partner who is resisting. And Ed, never grapple on all fours, you will get knocked out or submitted because that means you have zero control over your opponent if both hands and feet are on the ground and not grabbing/locking/hooking something. Ed, if your karate contains no grappling thats okay if it works for you. My karate does, however, as did Nagamine's, Motobu's, Matsumura's, Matsumora's, Oyodomari's, Kyan's, Arakaki's, Itosu's, Funakoshi's, etc. There is a "code" to karate's bunkai that is not reverse engineered or contrived by modern bunkologists, but is the "old" way of doing things. Some know it, and some don't. Thats the way of things. I once heard someone say there was no atemi in judo. Imagine what they will come up with next.

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#265627 - 07/18/06 06:24 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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Hi Medulanet.

Thanks for your reply.


Nope, no video. Again, video is good for a reference, but not true learning of classical karate.

I meant of you guys training a vidio of you guys doing your training.


but not true learning of classical karate.

Im not 100% to sure on that one, but to some degree I agree with your statement.

I have learnt a hell of a lot from videos, Normaly videos of people who are top of their tree in their disciplines. I watched a top Japanese trad fighter in ufc beat a ground and pound fighter on pure technique/ strategy and fitness.

Pure martial arts knowledge.

The ground and pound fighter was physicely stronger.
After working out what he did , I learnt.

How else would I learn the techniques he used?
Or rather how he used them? If an average instructor had this knowledge then surely he would be as good as the fighter in question?
Im not knocking instructors, some are good.
But I use what ever means I can to learn, then learn more.


You should be able to follow the basics of what I wrote, its nothing too revolutionary.

I did follow the basics of what you wrote, thanks.




What matters in the end is how you train what you have and if you can make it work

I agree, and what I have does work for me but I am always on the look out for improvement.

Thanks Andy.

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#265628 - 07/18/06 07:26 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
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if your karate contains no grappling thats okay if it works for you. My karate does, however, as did Nagamine's, Motobu's, Matsumura's, Matsumora's, Oyodomari's, Kyan's, Arakaki's, Itosu's, Funakoshi's,

Where did Funokoshi refer to ground grappling in his katas?

etc. There is a "code" to karate's bunkai that is not reverse engineered or contrived by modern bunkologists, but is the "old" way of doing things. Some know it, and some don't.

Could you explain this please?
I know of some grappling in kata but it would seem very little?

Thanks

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#265629 - 07/18/06 07:43 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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standup grappling, yes. but what are you talking about? grappling on your knees? how can you ground grapple with less than 3 points of contact to the ground?
ground grappling is supplimental. there is no kata that I'm aware of that uses more than 2 points of contact to the floor. and there is no text that I'm aware of authored by any of the masters you mention which they detail kata interpretation on the ground.

If it's your opinion that I'm mis-informed, then I'm asking to be informed:
1. kata with > 2 points of contact to floor. example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling#Ground_grappling.
2. text written pre-WWII which details ground grappling in Karate.

if your karate contains GROUND grappling, thats great - but it was likely added to some curriculums post WWII. I get the sense that since ground fighting wasn't covered or mentioned in pre-war texts, that if you are at the point of grappling on the ground, it means your stand-up karate has failed.

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#265630 - 07/18/06 08:02 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
ANDY44 Offline
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http://shosamurai.tripod.com/pmaa/id19.html

Hi I s this the website for your style?

Thanks Andy

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#265631 - 07/18/06 03:13 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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I wouldn't expect much written info on a style that was mainly taught through oral tradition, and considering at least 1/3 of the population and much of the culture was destroyed during WWII. Okay Ed, if I am on my hands and knees I am getting choked out or the back of my skull bashed in. However, if I am on my back using my hands and legs to counter my opponent and get to my feet I don't have four points contacting the ground. If I have my opponent mounted and I have both my hands and feet/knees on the ground then my opponent has broken my balance/base and is in a position to counter what I am doing by getting guard or bumping and rolling me over. If I am in my opponent's guard and I have both my hands and feet/knees on the ground then my opponent has countered what I am doing and is getting ready to work a sub like a keylock/armbar/triangle or sweep me. However, if I have a good base and am using my hands/arms to work my techniques and counter his, then I am in good position. Again, no direct documentation, unless you call Nagamine's statement that Kyan's father trained him in "karate wrestling" before he begain classical kata training documentation. Oh,l by the way this was probably in the 1870's or 1880's, so even back there there was grappling in karate. Is there any evidence that it was standup only, no, but there is not evidence that it did not include ground fighting. And Funakoshi did not ever document groundfighting, but certainly knew a wide array of throwing techniques which is grappling. And considering Funakoshi was an average karate man by okinawan standards the grappling he portrayed in his books was likely basic stuff that all karateka learned and not the limits of his knowledge.

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#265632 - 07/18/06 04:55 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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of course stuff written/published is not the extent of people's knowledge. why do people feel the need to make condecending comments like that?

Quote:

I am on my back using my hands and legs to counter my opponent and get to my feet I don't have four points contacting the ground.



are there kata where you lay down on your back? or are you saying body mechanics are the same for certain techniques despite standing or laying ... if so, could you give example.

Quote:


If I have my opponent mounted and I have both my hands and feet/knees on the ground then my opponent has broken my balance/base and is in a position to counter what I am doing by getting guard or bumping and rolling me over. If I am in my opponent's guard and I have both my hands and feet/knees on the ground then my opponent has countered what I am doing and is getting ready to work a sub like a keylock/armbar/triangle or sweep me. However, if I have a good base and am using my hands/arms to work my techniques and counter his, then I am in good position.




"on all fours" was an expression. not a literal.

and I just realized I entered an argument about preference. everyone defines their practice based on what their goals are.

If an Okinawan lifetime teacher of Karate, is not teaching ground grappling...then an American can claim he's not teaching Okinawan karate? is that what you are saying?

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#265633 - 07/18/06 06:05 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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A keylock is a keylock standing or on the ground. A RNC is the same if I'm on top, on bottom, or on my opponent's back and he is standing up. Yes, the principles of kata's grappling techniques standing work on the ground as well. When you really start training the applications of kata you don't do more kata, you work with a partner. So you then explore the applications standing, on the ground, in whatever situation you can imagine yourself in, or your opponent can get you in.

And in terms of Okinawan karate. If a lifetime Okinawan teacher never teaches ground fighting, but acknowledges it does exist in the kata, and preserves the art as he was taught it by those who used the groundfighting in it and the American understands what was taught by the Okinawan teacher and trains the groundfighting found in the kata properly because he has previously trained in grappling and has a solid foundation in those principles like the forefathers of Okinawan karate then both are teaching and practicing okinawan karate. Now the one who can fight better, defend him/herself better on the street, and teach his/her students to do the same has the more effective Okinawan karate.

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#265634 - 07/18/06 08:00 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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that's reasonable (or a better way of explaining what wasn't getting thru to me). I don't train that way. I do stand-up grappling and:
1. hope it doesn't go to ground.
and
2. hope the standup grappling techniques will work for ground.

keyword 'hope'.

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#265635 - 07/18/06 09:06 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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fair points Medulanet, but why wouldnt the Okinawan teacher not teach groundfighting if it is a significant (ie its there) part of training karate?

Im not trying to catch you out here as I really enjoy your posts but personally I just dont buy groundfighting exsists in the kata, yes techniques/principles have multiple uses so there is some obvious cross over if you know what your doing.
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#265636 - 07/19/06 12:37 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Actually there are many Okinawan teachers that don't even teach the "real" bunkai they know. I personally don't know why they don't teach it. There are many that only teach certain things to certain people. I heard a story of one Okinawan teacher telling his student he didn't teach him bunkai because he seemed happy with what was being taught. In my experience, at least in Matsubayashi, many Okinawans will show advanced bunkai very rarely openly. And some will show something the way it "should" be done and then say or you can do this, or this, or this and show very advanced bunkai, even some groundfighting including submissions as if it were of no real importance, just something to think about. I think that my interest in something does not motivate an Okinawan teacher who is instructing me to teach what I want to learn. And the teacher may have no interest in that aspect at all, but that does not mean it was never a part of the system and still is. Again, it is about focus. If I only teach a RNC when my opponent is lying face down does that mean it can't be applied in other ways? Or does it mean that I don't want to teach it that way?

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#265637 - 07/19/06 10:18 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
Rob_Rivers Offline
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Just my opinion...based on what I have been taught

As an example, you can not pull "sniper" techniques...the tactics that a military sniper uses to get his job done, from an infantry soldiers tactical manual. They are different schools of thought with specific purposes.

Then, we have to also really take Kata for what they are. They are only a step above the oral tradition of the Sensei of the particular Ryu. They are records to keep the tradition alive...essentially books containing pictures of techniques. These pictures are each step of a kata. The trick is, one does not know TRULY what happens during a particular technique without the insight of an instructor who truly knows what the movements REPRESENT...not what the movements mean, because the applications are not defined by the kata...the movements in the kata represent applications that are defined by the ryu or the Sensei.

Okinawan Karate is a classical martial art. It has a specific mindset with tactics designed and practiced for a particular era against an attacker with specific/ known attacks. In the golden age of Classical Karate, wrestling on the ground was not a priority...because nobody did it. When one is dealing with assailants with weapons or multiple attackers, the first choice is not to go to the ground. This does not mean a karateka would not learn how to do some things on the ground...but it wasn't a priority. There are countless takedowns and stand up joint locks in Karate...represented in the kata but only extracted from the kata with proper instruction...because this simply IS what karate IS.

In the age of classical karate, if someone REALLY wanted to learn how to fight on the ground effectively, he would have to "out-source" it or create it on his own. But this was rarely done. There was no need to become an expert ground fighter...everyone was carrying a sword...

Yes there was indigenous wrestling on Okinawa...done by kids and as a sport. This is not done in Karate and certainly isn't a "go-to" technique in a life threatening situation. Samurai didn't use Sumo on the battlefield, either.

There are a lot of words floating around on this thread...Ti, Di, Tode, Tuite, Tegumi...etc. I am not commenting on any of this. Of course they play a part historically and technically, but I am speaking solely on the mindset of classical Karate. Okinawan Karate is a tool in the toolbox. There are other tools in the toolbox, too...especially nowadays with so many people studying so many different arts. Want to grapple, find a BJJ dojo. Want to learn sword, find an Iaido school. Want to knife fight... find an escrima or silat group. Classical Karate is a specific tool for a specific job. Sometimes, I think, people need to stop making it more than it is.

Gassho

Rob Rivers

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#265638 - 07/19/06 10:24 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
harlan Offline
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Nice post. Welcome to the forum!

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#265639 - 07/19/06 12:06 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
butterfly Offline
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Rob,

Welcome. And finally, a sane voice in the wilderness.

-B

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#265640 - 07/19/06 12:09 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Nice post. Welcome to the forum!




Excellent post!! Couldn't have said it better!!!

Yes,welcome.
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#265641 - 07/19/06 12:10 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
MattJ Offline
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Quote by Bob Rivers -

Quote:

Classical Karate is a specific tool for a specific job. Sometimes, I think, people need to stop making it more than it is.




Great post, Bob. I have wondered why people feel the need to find things in martial arts where they are not. I love my AKK, but I do not pretend to think that there is any ground fighting comparable to BJJ in there. There is no shame in admitting that, either. It is what it is.
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#265642 - 07/19/06 02:14 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
medulanet Offline
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Interesting post and I agree with some of your points, but many Japanese Jujitsu styles came from the arts of the samurai derived from their sword handling technqiues which included quite extensive ground fighting training. Which are similar to the arts the Satsuma brought to okinawa and taught to the Okinawan Bushi. Again karate is a striking art primarily, no one is disputing that. But to think that the Royal bodyguard of the king would have no technqiues to defend themselves on the ground to get to their feet is naive. To believe that if there was an assailant attacking the king and a bodyguard stopped their advance and decided to apply a lock during the struggle, and would not know what to do if the struggle ended up on the ground such as continue to apply the joint lock and proceed to rip the opponent's shoulder/elbow, etc out is, interesting. In my karate you don't stop of you are bested on your feet. I would assume Matsumura would not either, and I would also assume this occured in training and they developed ways to accomplish their goals. Meaning continue to fight and get back to your feet to complete your duty to the king. Yes study wrestling to gain wrestling skill. The okinawans did this. Develop a complete system to handle any situation that may arise in your duty as a royal bodyguard. The okinawans did this as well. Develop kata and bury these principles in them to be developed further by those who come after as you have done with what those who came before did. The okinawans did this as well. By the way Rob, what style do you study?

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#265643 - 07/19/06 02:16 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
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Matt, I didn't know AKK was classical okinawan karate.

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#265644 - 07/19/06 03:31 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt, I didn't know AKK was classical okinawan karate.




LOL! Me neither! Who said that? I was just making a point about trying to find things in arts that don't have them.
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#265645 - 07/19/06 11:55 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'm glad you don't understand me it shows that we are on different planes. And I feel this difference will help some in not wasting their time with secret techniques with few teachers. One can reach the same goal by training in systems that stress the elements of fighting we desire.

It's good that you think your way is superior or has it all. It doesn't take away from me knowing, mines is progressive, and works because its tested. And merged into my classical system. Which is tested at a certain level weekly/monthly and during evaluation.

Not saying yours isn't. I don't know and don't care. Of course I respect your opinion more if tested. If not its still great that you practiced what U know.
I won't go into my experience of actually using these techniques in Real fights, where I used grappling and ground techniques from past training. The locks and techniques of all classical Karate include standing Grappling/tussling inside trapping range, locks, takedowns, sweeps and throws. All Te have knee on the mid driff, neck and head all kind of offensive fighting when the opponent is on the Ground. But very few or my classical system has very few groundfighting techniques chest to chest/fighting on your back mounted, defense/counters and reversals. This is how I define Groundfighting both people on the ground. Now I perfer the way Goju does it "the opponent" on the ground trying to avoid getting stomped or knee drops and STRIKES!!!
But this doesn't always happens.

Maybe thats where we differ in definition of what Grappling IS and what Ground fighting IS lets not confuse it with Night fighting (on the ground on four corners for a second) then spring back up as in Kusanku.

I know you think you train the best way. But try to understand this sometimes when you learn from a system that stress groundwork like Judo/Wrestling/Jujitsu/Silat you learn what the system stresses Grappling/Groundwork. Which would you think stress striking more self defense Karate or sd Judo now both have elements of striking, but which stresses it and may do it best. There is no question, so whats so hard to understand??

I agree I'm satisfied with my skills, and you seem happy with where you are. But I doubt very seriously if you have tested your Tode Jujitsu grappling against other grappling system. Or even learned to merge it into your system effectively. Its hard to do if not practiced to keep it secret private and untested. Maybe not but I haven't seen any classic Karate systems not even Wado-ryu where ground work is stressed over striking. Let me say that I know you didn't say that GW is stressed over striking in your system. But you are saying, that intensive GW exist in your classical system. Right?

Quite frankly Japanese JJ doesn't stress Ground fighting, Karate doesn't either. If yours system stresses it, My bet is its hybred and not classical. GF as I define it.

I agree with the seasoned and reasonable Martial artist that believe Grappling exist but not extensive Ground Fighting in the classical art.

You think you have an advantage, but I want u to ponder this. Hid and rarely practiced, As in the Raven the bell may tow for thee. I ain't worried about it. What about you?

This is not a challenge nor a put down, I love your postive enegry. But I miss your message, I hope its not U got something I don't??



Edited by Neko456 (07/20/06 12:27 AM)

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#265646 - 07/20/06 02:06 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Neko, there are some styles of JJJ that stress groundfighting more than their striking methods. BJJ came from Judo which came from JJJ. Most of BJJ's groundfighting techniques originally came from JJJ.

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#265647 - 07/20/06 03:29 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
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Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
BJJ and JJJ are distance relative BJJ is a Judo based system that stresses ground fighting. They are as close as there origin JJ , Judo and BJJ. I agree but just like Tode Te and Karate they have roots but are different.

I agree that the Place guards would need grappling and apprehension techniques but would that be a part of Tode Jujits, not by definiton As with modern Karate, JJ, Judo or Aikido when taught to our BodyGuards, Guards or LEO its watered down to detain, control and apprehend, its not a warriors art. Its not a method used to KO/miam or destroy as taughtto the guards. Its used to catch and apprehend. So you can see why most Te systems would not find it valid in a personal self-defense system.
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#265648 - 07/20/06 10:11 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
Fordareals Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 18
Quote:

Rob,

Welcome. And finally, a sane voice in the wilderness.

-B




I don't feel that what either Medula or I said was insane.:)

There is NO groundfighting in Okinawan karate in the GJJ sense. There ARE tactics for dealing with going to the ground especially in a dominant position. There is no training for pulling guard in the modern sense of the word, but Okinawan Kenpo guys like Raul and Rob Rousellot will tell you that the Naihanchi forms teach one just that in the oyo bunkai. I might agree with them.

What can be surmised and what is taught in a few of the older style Okinawan ryu's is the theory of throwing someone on their head or face, rather than pulling them up before they hit the ground. Also the idea of ground-n-pound is inherent in any system that teaches throws, trips, sweeps and other takedowns. It's just logical.

You won't see most Okinawan karate-ka with only clasical training transition from the guard into a triangle, then an armbar and finally into an omoplata. That's something that even old school Judo had almost lost after WWII. In fact it wasn't even a part of Kano's curriculum until the Kosen school defeated his guys quite soundly.

What you will find are cross-collar chokes from a standing and kneeling position, throat tears/trachea crushes, arm locks in a knee on head and chest position- as seen when cops apprehend suspects, throws where you grab an arm and the neck at the same time and so on.

In Passai Dai you'll find a double leg takedown (depending on rendition). Wansu has a fireman's carry/throw or what Funakoshi called "spearing the ball". Body locks to head slams or a "deep valley throw" is also seen in Okinawan karate, as well as so many other takedowns, armbars, chokes (blood and air) and so many techs it's hard to list.

GJJ is a specific artform with an emphasis on groundwork, but even its SD has elbow strikes, sidekicks, knees, knifehands, frontkicks and other strikes. If you don't do privates at a Gracie Academy chances are you will only roll and never see these things. Same with good Okinawan karate or karate in general. If you never learn from someone who knows the gamut of techs inherent in karate, usually in an intimate setting, you'll think they are rare (they are) or don't even exist (they do).

I think that BJJ is awesome, but very limited. Karate is also awesome and much of it is limited. Most MMAs types feel that wrestling is the best combat form one can train in to become a great fighter. I would agree that wrestlers often make good ring fighters and that one should know how to wrestle especially if you are a male. The thing is where were they in the first few UFCs, before they learned how to finish their fights with more than pinning, GnP and dominant position? Getting choked oput or submitted by a very good submissions specialist named Royce, so that theory is kaput. Again you need wrestling experience but you also need more if you're going to ring fight or real fight.

What we are all seeing is that a good foundation in striking and a solid wrestling background with an idea of how to prevent a takedown or to defend yourself on the ground is all that is really needed (Chuck Lidell of Hawaiian Kempo fame comes to mind). Once the GJJ cat was out of the bag everyone went towards learning to strike with efficacy which is a higher skill set than wrestling. It takes much more practice to do it right.

The karate founders also knew this, they were Homo Sapiens after all, so they put an emphasis on striking and keeping your feet, and knowing some takedowns and how to sprawl. Submissions were very secondary unless they could be pulled off effectively and in a very timely manner. They were never the emphasis because the forefathers understood the difference between kid fights and adult fights, or ring fighting versus "my family will starve to death if I lose" fighting.

You guys know what you know. That's all you can know. Be satisfied but never stop searching. Hohan Soken himself said that it is good to learn different ways from different schools and teachers, ONCE you have a good foundation in a solid style. I agree. You can see why karate sensei who knew were hesitant to let their "secrets" out. Oh yeah, there are no secrets just "things you don't yet know".

Kata, kata, kata...;)

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#265649 - 07/20/06 10:56 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
arm locks in a knee on head and chest position


HI

Same wave lenth.

Just put that one on the naihanchi thread about using a cat stance as opposed to cat stance being transitary.Nice body using technique



Edited by ANDY44 (07/20/06 11:04 PM)

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#265650 - 07/21/06 12:59 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Andy44 I see what he's talking about now too, of course we always saw it nearly the same. You don't need a bunch of stripes on your blackbelt to have wisdom and a skill based opinion. Along with Paul, Ed and BrianS two fellow Goju guys that hardly ever see things the same as I do. I use to think it was because they were USA or japanese Goju, but 1 is Okinwan Goju, 1's a Shorin guy. they just have different opinions which is great. I guess.

I agree totalling once the terms were defined. All Te has Grappling and offensive standing/kneel/sitting to ground assaults, and that non of the classical Te, Todes that became Karate have GW as in BJJ or some JJ/Judo.

I also agree with your synopsis of the evolution of fighting in the UFC/Pride and how the Okinawans may have seen things and developed, its just a natural process. I predicted this back in the early 90's, when this JJ thing took off. That the strikers would learn to counter and become dominate again, way back in then. Of course by then I already was a high school wrestler, study a little Judo, Silat and JJ. Along with numerous striking arts.

So by definition we see nearly the same light at the end of the tunnel, thank you and continue to enlighten us.

Now not to be argumentive but I fail to see how seeking more detailed GW will hurt classical Karateka personal development. Nor do I see any real difference in what you were trained in and call Grappling ( others systems do but don't call it grappling) we uses the same locks, chokes, throws, sweeps, standing to ground assaults, but just call it Karate. Does that really mean that you have something that some systems don't. We all were trained to do that in a serious defense, from 6th kyu to Master.

What is the difference in what you do and what others were trained to do? Is it that you were told it was Grappling and others were told to just do it, and didn't give it a label?

Is that the big deal??? Not trying to start anything just tying to get closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.


Only in respect for enlightenment.



Edited by Neko456 (07/21/06 01:14 AM)

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#265651 - 07/21/06 01:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ford..or multiverse or whomever,

I agree with what you have just stated. My problem stems from the occassional over-emphasis and self righteous indignation that some of the more traditional folk seem to carry. There is the surreptious nudge in the back to the unsuspecting where a comment of one's training is less worthy than another approach. I will admit that I have seen this as often in the MMA crew as well, with similar feelings of being dismissed without examination. Howevever, I straddle the line a bit since I belong to a Gendai budo, and one whose currents are less cared for in my particular backwater.

What I take from Rob's post is less provocative indignation and more of the let-it-be sensibility. Since, traditional, non-traditional, whatever, I see martial arts through a lens that is one about exposure, two about application, and three about the satisfaction that the indiviual derives from his practice. This latter, no one but the practioner can judge and so it is not in the purview of another to cast aspersions as to which house he worships in is lesser. "Style" might offer education, but like a poor student with a great teacher, it is always up to the individual to make a case for the art...not the other way around.

-B

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#265652 - 07/21/06 06:20 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI Butterfly

Nice reply but I have to resort to a dictionary to work out what you are saying.

Think there is a saying K.I.S should be another S but I wont use that one


Thanks


Andy

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#265653 - 07/21/06 06:40 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Neko456]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Is that the big deal??? Not trying to start anything just tying to get closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.

Hi Neko

Yeah the problem is from my point of view I would rather just see a technique, train if if it is usable, and then use it when and if I have to.

Now I am getting my head spun by these thougth provoking conversations,

( Ed is to blame for some of them but others also have an input)

not a bad thing Its just some times unless I physicaly see something then some times I dont comprehend it .

It takes a while longer.

I also see the difference between opinions based on pure training/sport application and opinions based on people who have done it for real, and the difference in Goju style ists

Perhaps this comes for the teachers I dont know.

Either way if it gets my brain working to try to work things out then it is a good thing.

Was grappling a pre requisite for karate?

I think it was.


Andy


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#265654 - 07/21/06 09:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
Rob_Rivers Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 11
Medulanet

If you study a Japanese Samurai Jujutsu art that has ground fighting in it I would like to know the style and techniques. If you are thinking of the techniques in Daito Ryu (for example) where the person is pinned on the ground, that is simply to put someone in a prone position and to free up the hands for the killing blow. They are not "Ground Fighting". But, Daito Ryu and a few others are the only ones I study/ am familiar with.

As for the palace bodyguard art of Okinawa... there isn't any special training one would have to learn to stand up if they fall down. Also, a palace guard would be more than adept at applying one of the practiced techniques on the ground in order to escape a fall if need be. You are not going to find "ground grappling" in Motobu Udonde. You really have to know the purpose of the bodyguard art to know why ground fighting just doesn't fit. But, when Motobu Sensei is at my house on Monday I will ask him to clear up any confusion.

Gassho
Rob Rivers
PS, I'd be happy to call you with the arts I study. Certain things are prohibited from discussing online.

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#265655 - 07/21/06 10:08 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Look forward to hearing back from you Rob, very interested in what Motobu Sensei has to say on this subject.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265656 - 07/21/06 10:41 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: shoshinkan]
Rob_Rivers Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 11
Will do. We are formulating our questions for an interview with several questions I've come across on the forums. Apparently people don't take my word for it...so we'll get it from Soke...I reckon the buck stops there!

Talk to you soon

Rob Rivers

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#265657 - 07/21/06 11:03 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
As always cores and to the point no jacking around. Precise with a kick in the pants, I like how you put that in your own devil may care respectful but brass way.

Butterfly you mean DragonFly!!


Great post.
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DBAckerson

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#265658 - 07/21/06 01:13 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Definitely I would enjoy to learn of his take on this as well. Ask him about grappling training and its link to karate. Ask him about any specific training to defend once taken to the ground and finishing an opponent when he is on the ground. In addition ask him about Nagamine's reference to the fact that Kyan was trained in "karate wrestling and okinawan sumo" prior to his classical karate training by his father, a palace guard who studied udundi. In addition I personally think any grappling on the ground as ground fighting or grappling. In your mind, where is the line drawn? I believe you are illustrating my point. That a well trained old style karateka would be able to and have applied both strikes and joint locking technqiues on the ground to regain their feet and advantage against their opponent. Did you think I was saying anything else? And did you think this could somehow not include ground fighting? And here is a link to a school of JJJ that practiced extensive gound fighting.

http://www.answers.com/topic/fusen-ryu-jujutsu

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#265659 - 07/21/06 06:06 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
Just1Mike Offline
No, the OTHER Mike

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Hi folks,

Whenever we practiced kumite, Sensei would admonish us not to stop fighting if the match went to the ground. If it happened too often, He would stop class and order us to kneel in seiza. Then he would pair two of the lowest ranking students to continue kumite for 3 minutes or so. from them he would select a winner based on technique and spirit. The next seated student would then be ordered to fight without the benefit of stretching his legs. This continued to the upper ranks who by that time were kneeling for quite a while. If they were too slow rising, Sensei insructed the standing fighter to attack them while they attempted to get up. More often than not you had to fight (at least for a while) a warmed up opponent while on the ground unable to stand. Those that were strong in the kata/kumite connection, fared better in those matches than those who just trained as though kumite was kumite and kata was kata without treating both as one in the same. I'm not saying that kata is the end all in ground fighting. Obviously an art that devotes most of it's time to that training would be far superior. But for those who don't have the oportunity to train in the ground arts, Kata will have to do.


Good Luck!
Mike.
_________________________
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#265660 - 07/22/06 02:55 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
Fordareals Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 18
Quote:

Ford..or multiverse or whomever,

I agree with what you have just stated. My problem stems from the occassional over-emphasis and self righteous indignation that some of the more traditional folk seem to carry. There is the surreptious nudge in the back to the unsuspecting where a comment of one's training is less worthy than another approach. I will admit that I have seen this as often in the MMA crew as well, with similar feelings of being dismissed without examination. Howevever, I straddle the line a bit since I belong to a Gendai budo, and one whose currents are less cared for in my particular backwater.

What I take from Rob's post is less provocative indignation and more of the let-it-be sensibility. Since, traditional, non-traditional, whatever, I see martial arts through a lens that is one about exposure, two about application, and three about the satisfaction that the indiviual derives from his practice. This latter, no one but the practioner can judge and so it is not in the purview of another to cast aspersions as to which house he worships in is lesser. "Style" might offer education, but like a poor student with a great teacher, it is always up to the individual to make a case for the art...not the other way around.

-B




They're all nom-de-guerres so call me "whomever" if you want.

As for my words being misconstrued as a stylistic superiority complex, a famous M.C. once asked in his rhyme "is it the style or the stylist?"; my opinion is the latter weighs very heavily in that equation, but not all styles are created equal. Style and teacher also make a pretty big difference.

I understand what you're saying. I defend my position so adamantly because I get tired of the overgeneralizations when it comes to the supposed ineffective nature of traditional (esp. Karate) training. I've been told that I'm a die-hard idealist who needs to let people believe what they want. That's why I refrained from getting on any MAs sites for about a year. I needed a break from all the animosity and misperceptions folks had of me or the system I love. If you met me you would rethink whatever negative impression you have of me, trust me.

Gendai budo falls more under the TMAs category than it does the modern combatives approach. Japanese karate (Kyokushin, Shotokan, etc.) still has a lot of the Okinawan flair to it. They still practice the Okinawan forms, albeit slightly altered, but even the different schools of Goju, Uechi, Shorin and Shito from Okinawa have variations on a common theme.

I think my problem, too, is that I'm slightly obstinate and mental (crrrazy). I never claimed to be completely sane! I do feel that I give a very accurate description of the karate I have trained in and observed throughout my not-so-short time on Mother Earth. I have trained with modernists and traditionalists who had excellent knowledge and know-how. I have always been above average as a student as far as I've been told. I have never sought fame, fortune or rank. I study Okinawan karate because of the fact that it fascinates me how such a small, peaceful culture formulated such a beautiful art and effective way of preserving one's health and life. It is cultural respect for a country that many have sought to exploit for centuries now. Just think of where YOUR art originated. Not Japan, not China, but from a tiny, tiny country who took the best of many cultures fighting traditions and philosophical ideas, amalgamated these- restructured this knowledge and integrated it with their own sensibilities and experience. It was just meant to be and to lead to all of tbis we see, from Okinawa Te to the UFC. I can see why the Japanese wanted to dopplegang it!!! It's just plain DOPE!

Rob does have a very sound reply to all of this. The original question was "is grappling a prerequisite for learning karate". Originally it was a foregone conclusion because like Funakoshi stated in his book "Karate-Do: My Way of Life" and Hohan Soken said in the Ernest Estrada interview, Wrestling/Grappling is interwoven into Ryukyuan culture. Most boys learn to wrestle first then their transition to karate, if they are taught, rounds out their knowledge of fighting. They said it many years before you or I were even training in karate, whether it be Tote, gendai Budo or TKD.

That's all I was trying to get across. Maybe I need to use less flowery language and be more tactful, but then that really wouldn't be me- MV, OP, Dr. K, 'Reals or whatever moniker I use on here. I'll leave the polytricking to the polytrickshuns.

Peace...


Edited by Fordareals (07/22/06 06:02 PM)

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#265661 - 07/22/06 04:19 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ford,

Quote:

That's all I was trying to get across.




I understand. If occasionally I get some eye-abrasions reading the rough edges of what you wrote, at least I have never felt it uninteresting.

Peace, Bro! And good training.

-B

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#265662 - 07/27/06 09:40 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Any news Rob?
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#265663 - 08/09/06 08:33 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI

Did you ever get answer to your questions?


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#265664 - 08/10/06 12:14 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: ANDY44]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
Can't be bothered to read most of this thread, but sumo is a fantastic addition to anyone's training repetoire. So is judo.

Imagine being able to knock down your opponents with not just the power of your karate, but the knowledge of where and how to hit so your opponent falls off balance to the ground. Or being able to set up huge throws or pins with hard punches or kicks and knowledge of balance. You could take out people a lot bigger than you with this kind of knowledge.

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#265665 - 08/22/06 07:32 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: paradoxbox]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
sumo


Edited by ANDY44 (08/22/06 07:49 PM)

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