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#265643 - 07/19/06 02:16 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Matt, I didn't know AKK was classical okinawan karate.

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#265644 - 07/19/06 03:31 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt, I didn't know AKK was classical okinawan karate.




LOL! Me neither! Who said that? I was just making a point about trying to find things in arts that don't have them.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#265645 - 07/19/06 11:55 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Fordareals]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I'm glad you don't understand me it shows that we are on different planes. And I feel this difference will help some in not wasting their time with secret techniques with few teachers. One can reach the same goal by training in systems that stress the elements of fighting we desire.

It's good that you think your way is superior or has it all. It doesn't take away from me knowing, mines is progressive, and works because its tested. And merged into my classical system. Which is tested at a certain level weekly/monthly and during evaluation.

Not saying yours isn't. I don't know and don't care. Of course I respect your opinion more if tested. If not its still great that you practiced what U know.
I won't go into my experience of actually using these techniques in Real fights, where I used grappling and ground techniques from past training. The locks and techniques of all classical Karate include standing Grappling/tussling inside trapping range, locks, takedowns, sweeps and throws. All Te have knee on the mid driff, neck and head all kind of offensive fighting when the opponent is on the Ground. But very few or my classical system has very few groundfighting techniques chest to chest/fighting on your back mounted, defense/counters and reversals. This is how I define Groundfighting both people on the ground. Now I perfer the way Goju does it "the opponent" on the ground trying to avoid getting stomped or knee drops and STRIKES!!!
But this doesn't always happens.

Maybe thats where we differ in definition of what Grappling IS and what Ground fighting IS lets not confuse it with Night fighting (on the ground on four corners for a second) then spring back up as in Kusanku.

I know you think you train the best way. But try to understand this sometimes when you learn from a system that stress groundwork like Judo/Wrestling/Jujitsu/Silat you learn what the system stresses Grappling/Groundwork. Which would you think stress striking more self defense Karate or sd Judo now both have elements of striking, but which stresses it and may do it best. There is no question, so whats so hard to understand??

I agree I'm satisfied with my skills, and you seem happy with where you are. But I doubt very seriously if you have tested your Tode Jujitsu grappling against other grappling system. Or even learned to merge it into your system effectively. Its hard to do if not practiced to keep it secret private and untested. Maybe not but I haven't seen any classic Karate systems not even Wado-ryu where ground work is stressed over striking. Let me say that I know you didn't say that GW is stressed over striking in your system. But you are saying, that intensive GW exist in your classical system. Right?

Quite frankly Japanese JJ doesn't stress Ground fighting, Karate doesn't either. If yours system stresses it, My bet is its hybred and not classical. GF as I define it.

I agree with the seasoned and reasonable Martial artist that believe Grappling exist but not extensive Ground Fighting in the classical art.

You think you have an advantage, but I want u to ponder this. Hid and rarely practiced, As in the Raven the bell may tow for thee. I ain't worried about it. What about you?

This is not a challenge nor a put down, I love your postive enegry. But I miss your message, I hope its not U got something I don't??



Edited by Neko456 (07/20/06 12:27 AM)

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#265646 - 07/20/06 02:06 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Neko, there are some styles of JJJ that stress groundfighting more than their striking methods. BJJ came from Judo which came from JJJ. Most of BJJ's groundfighting techniques originally came from JJJ.

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#265647 - 07/20/06 03:29 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
BJJ and JJJ are distance relative BJJ is a Judo based system that stresses ground fighting. They are as close as there origin JJ , Judo and BJJ. I agree but just like Tode Te and Karate they have roots but are different.

I agree that the Place guards would need grappling and apprehension techniques but would that be a part of Tode Jujits, not by definiton As with modern Karate, JJ, Judo or Aikido when taught to our BodyGuards, Guards or LEO its watered down to detain, control and apprehend, its not a warriors art. Its not a method used to KO/miam or destroy as taughtto the guards. Its used to catch and apprehend. So you can see why most Te systems would not find it valid in a personal self-defense system.
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#265648 - 07/20/06 10:11 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
Fordareals Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 18
Quote:

Rob,

Welcome. And finally, a sane voice in the wilderness.

-B




I don't feel that what either Medula or I said was insane.:)

There is NO groundfighting in Okinawan karate in the GJJ sense. There ARE tactics for dealing with going to the ground especially in a dominant position. There is no training for pulling guard in the modern sense of the word, but Okinawan Kenpo guys like Raul and Rob Rousellot will tell you that the Naihanchi forms teach one just that in the oyo bunkai. I might agree with them.

What can be surmised and what is taught in a few of the older style Okinawan ryu's is the theory of throwing someone on their head or face, rather than pulling them up before they hit the ground. Also the idea of ground-n-pound is inherent in any system that teaches throws, trips, sweeps and other takedowns. It's just logical.

You won't see most Okinawan karate-ka with only clasical training transition from the guard into a triangle, then an armbar and finally into an omoplata. That's something that even old school Judo had almost lost after WWII. In fact it wasn't even a part of Kano's curriculum until the Kosen school defeated his guys quite soundly.

What you will find are cross-collar chokes from a standing and kneeling position, throat tears/trachea crushes, arm locks in a knee on head and chest position- as seen when cops apprehend suspects, throws where you grab an arm and the neck at the same time and so on.

In Passai Dai you'll find a double leg takedown (depending on rendition). Wansu has a fireman's carry/throw or what Funakoshi called "spearing the ball". Body locks to head slams or a "deep valley throw" is also seen in Okinawan karate, as well as so many other takedowns, armbars, chokes (blood and air) and so many techs it's hard to list.

GJJ is a specific artform with an emphasis on groundwork, but even its SD has elbow strikes, sidekicks, knees, knifehands, frontkicks and other strikes. If you don't do privates at a Gracie Academy chances are you will only roll and never see these things. Same with good Okinawan karate or karate in general. If you never learn from someone who knows the gamut of techs inherent in karate, usually in an intimate setting, you'll think they are rare (they are) or don't even exist (they do).

I think that BJJ is awesome, but very limited. Karate is also awesome and much of it is limited. Most MMAs types feel that wrestling is the best combat form one can train in to become a great fighter. I would agree that wrestlers often make good ring fighters and that one should know how to wrestle especially if you are a male. The thing is where were they in the first few UFCs, before they learned how to finish their fights with more than pinning, GnP and dominant position? Getting choked oput or submitted by a very good submissions specialist named Royce, so that theory is kaput. Again you need wrestling experience but you also need more if you're going to ring fight or real fight.

What we are all seeing is that a good foundation in striking and a solid wrestling background with an idea of how to prevent a takedown or to defend yourself on the ground is all that is really needed (Chuck Lidell of Hawaiian Kempo fame comes to mind). Once the GJJ cat was out of the bag everyone went towards learning to strike with efficacy which is a higher skill set than wrestling. It takes much more practice to do it right.

The karate founders also knew this, they were Homo Sapiens after all, so they put an emphasis on striking and keeping your feet, and knowing some takedowns and how to sprawl. Submissions were very secondary unless they could be pulled off effectively and in a very timely manner. They were never the emphasis because the forefathers understood the difference between kid fights and adult fights, or ring fighting versus "my family will starve to death if I lose" fighting.

You guys know what you know. That's all you can know. Be satisfied but never stop searching. Hohan Soken himself said that it is good to learn different ways from different schools and teachers, ONCE you have a good foundation in a solid style. I agree. You can see why karate sensei who knew were hesitant to let their "secrets" out. Oh yeah, there are no secrets just "things you don't yet know".

Kata, kata, kata...;)

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#265649 - 07/20/06 10:56 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
arm locks in a knee on head and chest position


HI

Same wave lenth.

Just put that one on the naihanchi thread about using a cat stance as opposed to cat stance being transitary.Nice body using technique



Edited by ANDY44 (07/20/06 11:04 PM)

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#265650 - 07/21/06 12:59 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Andy44 I see what he's talking about now too, of course we always saw it nearly the same. You don't need a bunch of stripes on your blackbelt to have wisdom and a skill based opinion. Along with Paul, Ed and BrianS two fellow Goju guys that hardly ever see things the same as I do. I use to think it was because they were USA or japanese Goju, but 1 is Okinwan Goju, 1's a Shorin guy. they just have different opinions which is great. I guess.

I agree totalling once the terms were defined. All Te has Grappling and offensive standing/kneel/sitting to ground assaults, and that non of the classical Te, Todes that became Karate have GW as in BJJ or some JJ/Judo.

I also agree with your synopsis of the evolution of fighting in the UFC/Pride and how the Okinawans may have seen things and developed, its just a natural process. I predicted this back in the early 90's, when this JJ thing took off. That the strikers would learn to counter and become dominate again, way back in then. Of course by then I already was a high school wrestler, study a little Judo, Silat and JJ. Along with numerous striking arts.

So by definition we see nearly the same light at the end of the tunnel, thank you and continue to enlighten us.

Now not to be argumentive but I fail to see how seeking more detailed GW will hurt classical Karateka personal development. Nor do I see any real difference in what you were trained in and call Grappling ( others systems do but don't call it grappling) we uses the same locks, chokes, throws, sweeps, standing to ground assaults, but just call it Karate. Does that really mean that you have something that some systems don't. We all were trained to do that in a serious defense, from 6th kyu to Master.

What is the difference in what you do and what others were trained to do? Is it that you were told it was Grappling and others were told to just do it, and didn't give it a label?

Is that the big deal??? Not trying to start anything just tying to get closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.


Only in respect for enlightenment.



Edited by Neko456 (07/21/06 01:14 AM)

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#265651 - 07/21/06 01:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Ford..or multiverse or whomever,

I agree with what you have just stated. My problem stems from the occassional over-emphasis and self righteous indignation that some of the more traditional folk seem to carry. There is the surreptious nudge in the back to the unsuspecting where a comment of one's training is less worthy than another approach. I will admit that I have seen this as often in the MMA crew as well, with similar feelings of being dismissed without examination. Howevever, I straddle the line a bit since I belong to a Gendai budo, and one whose currents are less cared for in my particular backwater.

What I take from Rob's post is less provocative indignation and more of the let-it-be sensibility. Since, traditional, non-traditional, whatever, I see martial arts through a lens that is one about exposure, two about application, and three about the satisfaction that the indiviual derives from his practice. This latter, no one but the practioner can judge and so it is not in the purview of another to cast aspersions as to which house he worships in is lesser. "Style" might offer education, but like a poor student with a great teacher, it is always up to the individual to make a case for the art...not the other way around.

-B

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#265652 - 07/21/06 06:20 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
ANDY44 Offline
Revolutionary!

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
HI Butterfly

Nice reply but I have to resort to a dictionary to work out what you are saying.

Think there is a saying K.I.S should be another S but I wont use that one


Thanks


Andy

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