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#265583 - 06/30/06 04:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: medulanet]
Deltaforce69 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 81




Edited by Deltaforce69 (06/30/06 04:54 AM)

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#265584 - 06/30/06 04:59 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Deltaforce69]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Deltaforce,

Isshinryu was originally taught exactly as you describe.
Unfortunately one of my instructors must have had a really good imagination.

The late Sherman Harrill spent 40 years really working on the 8 Isshinryu kata, nothing extra, just really finding as much of each techniques applicatoin potential as he could.

He trained alogside my original instructor on Okinawa in the late 50's early 60's. And by happenstance I met him in 95.

The few times I was able to train with him he only shared a piece of how he used Okinawan karate, and I've documented 800 applications from those sessions.

Many of which were locks, throws, etc. all done exactly from kata execution and he could make them work against anybody. And her regularly shared with many from other Okinawan styles too because the same technique potential was in their kata.

He never disagreed with the primary tool was to strike someone, but then he showed what was really there too, even if the Okinawan's didn't show it that way.

Again by circumstance my own studies had started moving in that direction.

And for the record there's aikido and there's aikido. Some does look fancy, other paths are very very very small circle, the technique is used and the attacker graciously complies by sticking their face into the ground, that simple.

Just a slightly different take on things.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265585 - 06/30/06 05:00 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Deltaforce69]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Just read your post before you edited it

Some of the points are I think up for discussion

Naifanchi

On the website the version is different than i practice do you have the full version?

book form?

Ok so what about bunkia?

what bunkia did they teach you?

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#265586 - 06/30/06 05:03 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Victor

Could I poss see some of the documented uses you have?

thanks

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#265587 - 06/30/06 05:14 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Andy,

If you drop on by I'd be pleased to share them with you.
Which isn't a joke, a few on this list have met me. Of course I only share them in the context of knowing the appropriate Isshinryu kata.

I had tried many times to convince Sherman to write a book, but his answer was they need to be felt one on one. As he was my friend as well as instructor I only share them the same way.

I also don't do clinics, but the student who continues his school does. I'm sharing information about a training session he's holding soon, below.

Victor

Kerker's Isshin-Ryu Karate Dojo
128 Broadway Street
Carson IA 51525

PRESENTS

~Harrill's Isshin-Ryu Karate Family~

16th Annual Seminar

Friday August 11th 2006 and Saturday August 12th 2006
Griswold Community Center
Griswold IA.

Friday August 11th Weapons Seminar $35.00
10:00a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (Lunch on your own)
Griswold Community Center

Saturday August 12th Basics/Kumite - Kata Seminar $50.00
10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. (Lunch Provided)

Cost for both days $70.00

~ WHITE GI'S PREFERRED~

DOJO IN CARSON OPEN ALL WEEK TO TRAIN

Monday August 7th through Thursday August 10th
10:00 am. to 8:00 p.m.

Sunday August 13th 10:00 a.m. - 2:00 p.m.

For more information please feel free to contact me.
1-(402) 980-9561 ~ Kerk930@aol.com

Looking forward to seeing you at the Seminar

In Isshin-Ryu Karate Do,

John Kerker, Sensei

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#265588 - 06/30/06 05:19 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
I would love to attend a seminar and will do one day.Untill then is there nothing documented you could let me see?

I think it would of been great if he had wrote a book.

thanks

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#265589 - 06/30/06 05:34 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

Nothing personal but my notes are private for my own use and my students. The material is Sherman's. After his death others within the Isshinryu community asked the same of me, and as I had given my notes (both previously to Sherman, and then to John Kerker) I referred them to John as to whether he wished to share them.

It's not a question of being selfish. First one has to have studied the kata techniques used for a long time, and even in Isshinryu there is considerable variation between different schools, and my notes are of course slanted in my own undestanding of Isshinryu, so to others they might just be words.

I also have considerable research I've done for decades, which is part of my students practice,but I treat it no differently.

And while the techniques I know do begin to understand Isshihnryu's potential, it doesn't mean to do Isshinryu you have to have 800 applications , or 80. perhaps only 8. They really describe a range of study as well as technical practice.

Speaking for myself, instruction is a very personal form of sharing, and I choose where and when.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#265590 - 06/30/06 05:34 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Deltaforce69]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Just to give you an idea where I am coming from.

Some of my training
Maki wari/ heavy bag work
Bare knuckle punches of all description fist vertical /horizontal
Other strikes.
Forearm blocks/strikes conditioning against the heavy bag maki wari

Grip conditioning using methods from weigth training
and the older methods of
kami
Chishi

Kicks all description from target areas like the shins/feet stomps to the top of the head.

Kata
Bunkia
running

weigth training


grappling/sparring

footwork

so ok inpart perhaps it might be some what the same as okinawan training Im not sure I have never been.

Either way I think you might have a good contribution
so the question of the kata? Do the okinawan authority publish books

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#265591 - 06/30/06 05:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: Victor Smith]
andy4 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/25/06
Posts: 53
Ok Thanks Victor.

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#265592 - 06/30/06 05:44 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate? [Re: andy4]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Andy,

Do the Okinawan authorities publish books (about kata)?

The answer is both simple and complicated.

Nagamine Shoshin has published a book on his Shorin Ryu "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do", and it does describe his kata, in a picture by picture view.

It does not share application potential.

Hiagonna Morio has publised a series on Goju Kata and its applications (very hard to find anymore).

In the 1920's and 1930's Okinawan's in Japan did publish on their art (Funakoshi, Motobu, Mabuni), and touched slightly on kata application. Mutsu in 1933 (one of Funakoshi's students who then went to Okinawn in 30 to study further) published 'Karate Kempo' with extensive karate technique applications, but it is a number of years away from being translated into English and then published.

For the most part, contemporary Okinawan's have refrained from publishing books on their art.

There are video tapes available, but then books or video tapes can only capture a slice of any art. Real training takes literally decades of work with knowledgeable instructors. No book or video can capture but a slight glimpse of those paths.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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