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#265653 - 07/21/06 06:40 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Neko456]
ANDY44 Offline

Registered: 07/01/06
Posts: 814
Is that the big deal??? Not trying to start anything just tying to get closer to the light at the end of the tunnel.

Hi Neko

Yeah the problem is from my point of view I would rather just see a technique, train if if it is usable, and then use it when and if I have to.

Now I am getting my head spun by these thougth provoking conversations,

( Ed is to blame for some of them but others also have an input)

not a bad thing Its just some times unless I physicaly see something then some times I dont comprehend it .

It takes a while longer.

I also see the difference between opinions based on pure training/sport application and opinions based on people who have done it for real, and the difference in Goju style ists

Perhaps this comes for the teachers I dont know.

Either way if it gets my brain working to try to work things out then it is a good thing.

Was grappling a pre requisite for karate?

I think it was.


#265654 - 07/21/06 09:36 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
Rob_Rivers Offline

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 11

If you study a Japanese Samurai Jujutsu art that has ground fighting in it I would like to know the style and techniques. If you are thinking of the techniques in Daito Ryu (for example) where the person is pinned on the ground, that is simply to put someone in a prone position and to free up the hands for the killing blow. They are not "Ground Fighting". But, Daito Ryu and a few others are the only ones I study/ am familiar with.

As for the palace bodyguard art of Okinawa... there isn't any special training one would have to learn to stand up if they fall down. Also, a palace guard would be more than adept at applying one of the practiced techniques on the ground in order to escape a fall if need be. You are not going to find "ground grappling" in Motobu Udonde. You really have to know the purpose of the bodyguard art to know why ground fighting just doesn't fit. But, when Motobu Sensei is at my house on Monday I will ask him to clear up any confusion.

Rob Rivers
PS, I'd be happy to call you with the arts I study. Certain things are prohibited from discussing online.

#265655 - 07/21/06 10:08 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Look forward to hearing back from you Rob, very interested in what Motobu Sensei has to say on this subject.
Jim Neeter

#265656 - 07/21/06 10:41 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: shoshinkan]
Rob_Rivers Offline

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 11
Will do. We are formulating our questions for an interview with several questions I've come across on the forums. Apparently people don't take my word for we'll get it from Soke...I reckon the buck stops there!

Talk to you soon

Rob Rivers

#265657 - 07/21/06 11:03 AM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
As always cores and to the point no jacking around. Precise with a kick in the pants, I like how you put that in your own devil may care respectful but brass way.

Butterfly you mean DragonFly!!

Great post.

#265658 - 07/21/06 01:13 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Definitely I would enjoy to learn of his take on this as well. Ask him about grappling training and its link to karate. Ask him about any specific training to defend once taken to the ground and finishing an opponent when he is on the ground. In addition ask him about Nagamine's reference to the fact that Kyan was trained in "karate wrestling and okinawan sumo" prior to his classical karate training by his father, a palace guard who studied udundi. In addition I personally think any grappling on the ground as ground fighting or grappling. In your mind, where is the line drawn? I believe you are illustrating my point. That a well trained old style karateka would be able to and have applied both strikes and joint locking technqiues on the ground to regain their feet and advantage against their opponent. Did you think I was saying anything else? And did you think this could somehow not include ground fighting? And here is a link to a school of JJJ that practiced extensive gound fighting.

#265659 - 07/21/06 06:06 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: medulanet]
Just1Mike Offline
No, the OTHER Mike

Registered: 12/15/05
Posts: 148
Loc: Louisiana, USA
Hi folks,

Whenever we practiced kumite, Sensei would admonish us not to stop fighting if the match went to the ground. If it happened too often, He would stop class and order us to kneel in seiza. Then he would pair two of the lowest ranking students to continue kumite for 3 minutes or so. from them he would select a winner based on technique and spirit. The next seated student would then be ordered to fight without the benefit of stretching his legs. This continued to the upper ranks who by that time were kneeling for quite a while. If they were too slow rising, Sensei insructed the standing fighter to attack them while they attempted to get up. More often than not you had to fight (at least for a while) a warmed up opponent while on the ground unable to stand. Those that were strong in the kata/kumite connection, fared better in those matches than those who just trained as though kumite was kumite and kata was kata without treating both as one in the same. I'm not saying that kata is the end all in ground fighting. Obviously an art that devotes most of it's time to that training would be far superior. But for those who don't have the oportunity to train in the ground arts, Kata will have to do.

Good Luck!
PSN: BanditsPledge Live: Schutzwaffen

#265660 - 07/22/06 02:55 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: butterfly]
Fordareals Offline

Registered: 07/13/06
Posts: 18

Ford..or multiverse or whomever,

I agree with what you have just stated. My problem stems from the occassional over-emphasis and self righteous indignation that some of the more traditional folk seem to carry. There is the surreptious nudge in the back to the unsuspecting where a comment of one's training is less worthy than another approach. I will admit that I have seen this as often in the MMA crew as well, with similar feelings of being dismissed without examination. Howevever, I straddle the line a bit since I belong to a Gendai budo, and one whose currents are less cared for in my particular backwater.

What I take from Rob's post is less provocative indignation and more of the let-it-be sensibility. Since, traditional, non-traditional, whatever, I see martial arts through a lens that is one about exposure, two about application, and three about the satisfaction that the indiviual derives from his practice. This latter, no one but the practioner can judge and so it is not in the purview of another to cast aspersions as to which house he worships in is lesser. "Style" might offer education, but like a poor student with a great teacher, it is always up to the individual to make a case for the art...not the other way around.


They're all nom-de-guerres so call me "whomever" if you want.

As for my words being misconstrued as a stylistic superiority complex, a famous M.C. once asked in his rhyme "is it the style or the stylist?"; my opinion is the latter weighs very heavily in that equation, but not all styles are created equal. Style and teacher also make a pretty big difference.

I understand what you're saying. I defend my position so adamantly because I get tired of the overgeneralizations when it comes to the supposed ineffective nature of traditional (esp. Karate) training. I've been told that I'm a die-hard idealist who needs to let people believe what they want. That's why I refrained from getting on any MAs sites for about a year. I needed a break from all the animosity and misperceptions folks had of me or the system I love. If you met me you would rethink whatever negative impression you have of me, trust me.

Gendai budo falls more under the TMAs category than it does the modern combatives approach. Japanese karate (Kyokushin, Shotokan, etc.) still has a lot of the Okinawan flair to it. They still practice the Okinawan forms, albeit slightly altered, but even the different schools of Goju, Uechi, Shorin and Shito from Okinawa have variations on a common theme.

I think my problem, too, is that I'm slightly obstinate and mental (crrrazy). I never claimed to be completely sane! I do feel that I give a very accurate description of the karate I have trained in and observed throughout my not-so-short time on Mother Earth. I have trained with modernists and traditionalists who had excellent knowledge and know-how. I have always been above average as a student as far as I've been told. I have never sought fame, fortune or rank. I study Okinawan karate because of the fact that it fascinates me how such a small, peaceful culture formulated such a beautiful art and effective way of preserving one's health and life. It is cultural respect for a country that many have sought to exploit for centuries now. Just think of where YOUR art originated. Not Japan, not China, but from a tiny, tiny country who took the best of many cultures fighting traditions and philosophical ideas, amalgamated these- restructured this knowledge and integrated it with their own sensibilities and experience. It was just meant to be and to lead to all of tbis we see, from Okinawa Te to the UFC. I can see why the Japanese wanted to dopplegang it!!! It's just plain DOPE!

Rob does have a very sound reply to all of this. The original question was "is grappling a prerequisite for learning karate". Originally it was a foregone conclusion because like Funakoshi stated in his book "Karate-Do: My Way of Life" and Hohan Soken said in the Ernest Estrada interview, Wrestling/Grappling is interwoven into Ryukyuan culture. Most boys learn to wrestle first then their transition to karate, if they are taught, rounds out their knowledge of fighting. They said it many years before you or I were even training in karate, whether it be Tote, gendai Budo or TKD.

That's all I was trying to get across. Maybe I need to use less flowery language and be more tactful, but then that really wouldn't be me- MV, OP, Dr. K, 'Reals or whatever moniker I use on here. I'll leave the polytricking to the polytrickshuns.


Edited by Fordareals (07/22/06 06:02 PM)

#265661 - 07/22/06 04:19 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Fordareals]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA


That's all I was trying to get across.

I understand. If occasionally I get some eye-abrasions reading the rough edges of what you wrote, at least I have never felt it uninteresting.

Peace, Bro! And good training.


#265662 - 07/27/06 09:40 PM Re: Is grappling a prerequisite for okinwan karate [Re: Rob_Rivers]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Any news Rob?
Jim Neeter

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