I have been browsing through Nagamine's books detailing his teachers and I noticed that much of the information he shares about Kyan and Arakaki refer to grappling training early in their martial careers. What strikes me even more is Kyan's father, a royal bodyguard, would train Kyan in "Sumo and karate wrestling." It is my belief that karate training always contained a cirriculum of a form of submission wrestling to enable the karateka to fully understand okinwan karate. This has of course been discontinued, but I think this is largely due to the changes that occured in okinawa in the early 1900s. Without this grappling training I feel it will be extremely difficult if not almost impossible to understand and utilize the classical kata of karate.

If you talk grappling until takedown ? I say yes. But it is inherent to fighting. I have heared that in the 'old days' 2 persons would get into a woven basket with almost no room for the two to manouvre and train submissions or locking. But I never have heared about continuing the fight on the ground ala judo or ju jitsu.
There are 3 fighting ranges : you cannot touch eah other, you can kick, and you are in reach of each others arms. In the last case, grappling is part of the game. When I look at the goju-ryu curriculum, there are locks, takedowns and clinching techniques combined with kicks, knees, strikes/punches and elbow techniques. In free fighting, combining the entire arsenal at close range, stand-up grappling is part of the game.

Yes, but okinawan sumo, which was connected to karate training contained both pinning and submission techniques aka groundfighting.

here we go.
of course kata has standup grappling principles, there is no way to fight that close without it. but if you are suggesting full-blown ground grappling, you are coo-coo for cocoa puffs.

here's how we can logically analyze this:

Q: is there a significant portion of kata which has more than 2 points of contact to the floor?


Q: In order to train grappling effectively, is it better to train standing up and just imagine that it will work on the ground too...OR....actually train grappling in all ranges?


Q: do grapplers shadowbox? and if they do, is it while keeping minimum contact with the floor?

Q: are the physics of weight distribution/leverage/balance, etc different between standing and ground grappling?

Q: who are the best grapplers in the world? what are their training methods?

Q: did okinawans typically learn to grapple before or after gaining proficiency in forms? If you need grappling as a prerequisite to understand the forms, why use the forms for grappling? if forms were/are a training method to learn grappling, how come grapplers don't use forms?

* kata has standup grappling and clinch, I'd even buy standup submission.
* kata has ground grappling? the physics seem fundamentally different due to the center of gravity shifts from the multiple points of contact to the floor. there is no way those lessons can be learned from 2-point-contact-to-the-floor kata. a simple example, a release from a headlock while standing is 180 degrees different than escaping a headlock while kneeling or sitting or laying down.

Ed,

I like the way you think....and the way you wiggle your hips!

Good, logical points.

-B

Ed, Good questions! We all know the answers to them,but not all will admit.
If you practice grappling on the ground and claim it comes from kata,good for you,it'll be your little secret.
If you practice ground grappling by ground grappling,yay, you are learning.

Tegumi perhaps was the father of okinawan Sumo, its wrestling of course. Its exact make up is difficult at best but my money would be on it containing groundwork and subs.

it isnt in the classical kata IMO, its something different but historically part of Okinawan Katare.

The kata as I see it have tuite (chin-na) and atemi methods which come from China, but Okinawanised.

Im working on where Ti fits into all of this, I may be some time...............

IMO Yes, some form of grappling specific training is needed to compliment classical karate, and tegumi is the historical aspect I talk of it isnt all in the kata after all eh!

Yeah, I think the same way.
Grappling is trained by grappling. The physical movement for grappling was poss put in to kata to remember the movement.






Problem might have been that the techniques were forgotten.

I think the techniques in kata are to remember the movement in kata not train it.

Then if the technique is known( this is where most of the problems are) it can be practiced be it on the ground or
standing up.

Problem was some techniques got either forgotten or changed beyond recognition.

Its called in this day and age by the good practioners re engineering.

Either way I will practice the techniques and the kata.

Which reminds me while typing this my maki wari is getting lonely.

Just a small point here.

For the use in competition when striking an opponent while the person doing the striking is lying or sitting.

Was it first taught standing or did certain people
start learning to strike while lying on the ground ?

It was learned standing, then the technique would be changed fo
r use, while sitting or lying on ones back

ous !!!