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#263501 - 06/15/06 12:50 AM You vs. You
bo-ken Offline

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
This isn't a thread about conquering yourself. This is about teachers and students fighting very similarly. Some of my friends that train with me have very similar fighting stances to me. Although in my Karate class not so much.

Well it seems to me that the more I train someone the more they move like me. Now everyone has there strengths and weaknesses so should our stances be slightly different? Does anyone else see this in there classes? I am not saying this is a bad thing just wondering if it happens to any of you.

#263502 - 06/15/06 01:11 AM Re: You vs. You [Re: bo-ken]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
It used to,

I now encourage people to train as individuals and recognised their strengths and weaknesses.

I tend to try and only teach about a dozen people at any one time, preferably less, people will work different drills, and in different ways.

Of course some core base principles are suitiable for all,

I word it this way - we all train in XYZ system but its ok for each of us to have our own style according to our body type, mindset and reason for training.

This is a vast improvement from my early training, and encourages free thinking/expression. I also think it is more suitiable for people in the long run and get results quicker and helps bigstyle with application.
Jim Neeter

#263503 - 06/15/06 01:35 AM Re: You vs. You [Re: shoshinkan]
bo-ken Offline

Registered: 06/07/04
Posts: 1228
Loc: beaver falls, PA, beaver
Thank you!

#263504 - 06/15/06 05:00 AM Re: You vs. You [Re: bo-ken]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
you are most welcome, of course if people are training realistically then a certain commonality develops - it has to to work! But this has little to do with the system one has trained in and more to do with principles of combat.

general sparring/competioin stuff (any method) may look very similair as people are training to score and to stay within the rules.

This became obvious when I fought under WUKO rules, karate point sparring - alot of bouncing around and reverse punching going on.........
Jim Neeter

#263505 - 06/15/06 01:58 PM Re: You vs. You [Re: bo-ken]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
This is normal. Students try to emulate their instructor because that's all they know.

Think about when you first learned to write. It began w/ everyone writing like this "CAT", "DOG". Then you learned to write "Cat", "Dog". Eventually you learned to use cursive script (handwriting) like the example on the wall. Over the years your signature became individualized. So it is w/ karate.


#263506 - 06/23/06 08:38 AM Re: You vs. You [Re: bo-ken]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3119
Loc: East Coast, United States
Good Morning:

<<Well it seems to me that the more I train someone the more they move like me.

A wonderful observation! My understanding of movement, power comes from my comprehension of my teachers understanding concerning how to move effectively & efficently. Because however it is MY body doing the movements.... under no circumstances should I ever be a "cookie-cutter" copy of my instructor.

I am shorter, far, far less fast, younger and by comparison considerably stockier. (A postage stamp is stockier...)Consequently I must not attempt his body methods. I will move my body consistantly with the concepts and principles subtlety, nuance, power generation which I was taught.

If we are cookie cutter, ie everybody moving robotically like their instructor regardless of their size, age, weight differences something dangerous was severely missed.


Edited by Ronin1966 (06/23/06 09:18 AM)

#263507 - 07/02/06 05:46 AM Re: You vs. You [Re: Ronin1966]
webby Offline

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 147
Loc: newton abbot devon
i think every karateka has there own style of fighting...obv you start with the same style as your instructer because he teaches you...but the higher the grade u get you from ur own fighting style....

#263508 - 07/02/06 11:37 AM Re: You vs. You [Re: webby]
Happy Birthday wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Coming from an engineering background, I would give you this perspective on training. You teach everyone the same way, and in doing so, their strengths and weaknesses appear clearly, and you can focus your special attention to their problems rather than trying to fix things you don't recognize as being broken.

Where most of your students will exhibit your general fighting style and movements, there will be some that either excel or fail at it all, and those are the ones who reqiure special attention... the bad ones to fix what's broken, the good ones to help excel even further.

I used to work for an engineer and we designed industrial boilers for paper mills (huge, mulitstory ones). Every set of plans that we issued had the same mistake intentionally designed onto them. When I asked my boss why we didn't simply fix the problem, he said "I know how this will be installed when they do it, and I know how to fix it. If we do something different, I might not know what to do to get it running correctly".

Another matter in martial arts, however, is how trustworthy students are with the material they're taught... and teaching everyone the same way does away with a lot of the b-s of your "former students" showing up at other dojos and claiming things that aren't true about their training with you. Like a "bad signature" on a check, a rogue student will stand out like a sore thumb in a local martial arts community if they make outrageous claims about what goes on in your school, which is also one of the reasons for "tiered teaching" and separating different divisions of your students from one another.

It's one thing to teach someone mechanical movements, and another entirely to teach them lethal information, so while in the "weeding out" process, there is some merit in the division of classes by rank and experience.

Our school keeps everyone in one class for "general training" and takes students aside for "individual instruction" based on their rank and understanding of what we're doing. In that way, we both give everybody everything , but it is metered out as they develop the skills and mental attitudes to handle it.

People tend to forget that "deadly skills" are just that, and like training in firearms, I wouldn't hand a 10 year old a .44 magnum to let them start banging away at their fellow students. I wouldn't intentionally give anyone without good restraint the skills to damage anyone else either.

IMO Structured teaching will develop students who "look like you" in their movements and actions. As they develop, they will tend to either emulate you for necessity sake or because you "turn" their attitudes to reflect yours. In any case, they will become the mirror of their instruction, and how much of their own personality comes out will usually only happen after they are well-enough trained to "make you proud" of what they do.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#263509 - 07/02/06 03:28 PM Re: You vs. You [Re: bo-ken]
jc4199 Offline

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 362
Loc: Pevely, MO U.S.A
My insturcter always says it is my way, the right way , and your way the closer you get to the right way is better but not everyone is the same.
Defeat never comes to any man until he admits it.


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