FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 39 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LeroyCFischer, JadeKing, Beefcake, WesJones, simonajones111
22933 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 2
charlie 2
simonajones111 1
GojuRyuboy13 1
Zombie Zero 1
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25 26 27 28 29
30
New Topics
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
MA style video library
by
03/22/06 03:18 PM
Recent Posts
unrecognized kata
by William_Bent
11/19/14 07:05 PM
I gained a lot of month in the last few months
by simonajones111
11/19/14 04:54 AM
Siu Lin Tao-3rd section applications
by futsaowingchun
11/13/14 06:48 PM
Screen fighting course UK December 2014
by charlie
11/11/14 04:09 PM
MA style video library
by charlie
11/11/14 04:05 PM
Siu Lin Tao-1st section Pak Sao explanations
by futsaowingchun
11/09/14 10:30 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/29/14 10:01 PM
I spy kata bunkai..
by GojuRyuboy13
10/29/14 08:28 AM
Judo 2014 World Championships Juniors: The Gallery
by ergees
10/25/14 04:53 PM
Forum Stats
22933 Members
36 Forums
35589 Topics
432521 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 2 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#262861 - 03/01/07 11:15 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Leo_E_49]
FightingFeet Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/06
Posts: 63
Loc: Singapore
At least i had learn something about Battlefield H2H combat... good video.
_________________________
No Matter what, justice must exist.

Top
#262862 - 03/01/07 02:36 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Bushi_no_ki]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
sorry - I would wonder why a soldier would want to know how to use a knife or bayonet, or to be more accurate, why put time into the training? basically, a knife is a less effectvie form of leathal combat. if I were putting effort and time into training, I would do it with either hand to hand, or stick fighting. it is almost inconceivable that a soldier would encourter a situation where a knife would be preferable to a firearm, while in todays realisty a stick often is.

Top
#262863 - 03/03/07 01:45 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: globetrotter]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Ok, why is a stick more effective in battlefield combat than a knife? Remember, laws do not prevent soldiers from using knives like civilians do and many soldiers carry knives with them in addition to their side arms.
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#262864 - 03/03/07 02:52 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Leo_E_49]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
not more effective, and not for battlefield applications. but a knife is nowhere near as effective as a firearm for a battlefield. so I would say that while a stick and a firearm are for different things, a knife and a firearm are for basically the same thing, and one is a hell of a lot less effective than the other.

basically, there are two reasons for using a knife
1. to kill silently - and, frankly, a silenced firearm is much better for that.

2. if your firearm malfunctions. so, what is better training - to teach a soldier to fix any malfuction quickly, or to teach them to fight with a knife? for that matter, a small backup firearm can weigh almost as little as a knife.

realistically - you need to have a situation where you are stuck with a malfuntioning weapon, you are facing an enemy with a malfunctioning weapon and there is nobody to help either of you, for knife fighting training to pay off. you throw into that that you and the other guy are wearing a chunk of body armor, and have 3 foot metal clubs in your hands (your malfunctioning rifles) and how much good will a knife realy do?

Top
#262865 - 03/03/07 09:09 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: globetrotter]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
You make a good point, however, according to many CQB articles I've read, a knife at close range is more dangerous than a firearm, most certainly more dangerous than a rifle. Assuming that there has been a weapon malfunction, a soldier will almost always have a side-arm. So in a way, I agree with you. Knife training, as with empty handed training, is basically pointless in a battlefield where long ranged weapons are the primary factor. However, according to what I've read and heard, the minimal CQB training which is provided is for the soldiers' comfort of mind, knowing that if everything gets FUBAR, they'll have their own combatives to rely upon until help arrives or until they can acquire a weapon (although it will be of minimal help, it's better than nothing). After all, a knife can't jam, and is hence, quite resistant to Murphy's law. A smart soldier will carry a side arm and a knife as backup weapons if possible.

I will point out that it is impossible to expect a soldier to repair his weapon in a CQB situation, which is the only situation a knife would ever be used on a battlefield. The methodology of CQB differs greatly from that of standard military engagement, I'm sure there are plenty of people around on this forum who can explain why. I do not have the technical expertise to do the subject justice.

Furthermore, the standard infantry armour used by the US military forces is not stab proof. This means that although it can stop a bullet, it can not stop a knife penetrating it with a stabbing motion. Since the greatest military force on the planet can not afford stab-proof vests, it is unlikely that any other military force will utilise them. Stab proof vests are more commonly worn by people in dangerous civilian areas. Knives have been used since medieval times against people wearing armour and a well known tactic against an armoured knight was to slice between the links in their armour.

I am by no means an expert on this, nor have I been in a military service, I am simply repeating the opinions of other, more knowledgeable, people I have spoken with on the subject.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/03/07 09:24 PM)
_________________________
Self Defense
(Website by Marc MacYoung, not me)

Top
#262866 - 03/04/07 08:39 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Leo_E_49]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
fair enough points. I have been in the military, in a pretty good military infantry unit, and have seen combat and trained and led men for combat.


the military works in what should be a cost effective manner - I have never heard of a situation, in my army (Israeli Defence Forces) where a person was actually in a situation where a knife was usefull in an actual battlefield due to weapon malfunction - again, that basically means that your weapon malfuctions, you are facing somebody with a malfuctioning weapon and there is nobody around to help you. if you are facing somebody whose weapon hasn't malfunctioned, a knife isn't going to help you, for instance. if you have people around, they will cover you. the chance that you will actually use your knife is extremly small. the amount of time that was spent training you on that could be used better.


as to the lethalness of a knife - I would respectfully submit that anyone who says that a knife is more lethal than a rifle doens't know what they are talking about. you know the best way to kill a sentry? get 2 or 3 meters away and fire a half dozen rounds of 5.56 mm rifle ammo through his upper chest from a silenced rifle. a hell of a lot more lethal that trying to cut his throat. a soldier has no business getting into a range that is to close for a firearm to work. even in anti-terror opperations, firearms are a great deal more effective than knives.

as to fixing a firearm in the field - the vast majority (maybe 99%) of malfunctions with a modern rifle can be fixed in a few seconds by a trained soldier. typically the only ones that can't be are when the shell casing splits and gets jamed in a barrel. for example - I probrably fired a quarter of a million rifle rounds and soldiers who reported to me probrably fired another 20 or 30 million rounds, and I never saw this actually happen. the best use of a sodliers time, in training, is to teach them to handle their personal weapon as well as possible.

about armor - I don't know what type of armor the US army uses, but I don't see how it isn't stab proof. I think that what you mean is that it only covers part of the body, although I may be wrong. we used vietnam era flac jackets, and they would stop scrapnel and knives, and then we had ceramic plates on a small part of our chest and back that would stop small, low velocty rounds. my understanding is that the armor is better now, not worse. also, you have on a helmet, 8-12 magazines, various other gear that is pretty thick and surounds your vitals. it isn't that easy to get to the vitals of a soldier with a knife.

Top
#262867 - 03/05/07 07:37 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: globetrotter]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
There is a big controversy over the current interceptor body armour which has been utilised in the armed forces over there in the states since the Bush administration came into power. Your average bullet proof vest is not stab proof, although it will protect against slashing knife attacks. A wire mesh is required to prevent a knife tip from penetrating and most vests do not contain such a mesh. There are numerous alternatives which only cost a small amount more and would provide significantly higher protection, for example, Dragon Skin armour provides level IV ballistic protection and is also stab resistant as I understand it. It's worth reading about, I'm surprised more people don't know about it. The majority of ranking officers in the US prefer to wear Dragon Skin but the average grunt doesn't have the privilege...

For more information refer to:
http://www.bulletproofme.com/Quick_Answers.shtml#1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interceptor_body_armor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=842

As to knives as weapons, I still don't see how a stick could be any more effective. Again, I'm sure there are some CQB experts around the place who can provide you with better information. As I understand it, CQB is quite a different approach from standard infantry combat.

I believe that most of the CQB tactics in most military forces derives from trench warfare, where close combat was essential. Times have changed, although in urban combat, this kind of training may be more relevant.

Furthermore, the amount of time spent training knife tactics is apparently extremely limited anyway. Stuff like BJJ is supposedly far more consistently trained these days because it promotes physical and mental readiness in soldiers who may be asked to start a grappling match at any time as a conditioning drill. Various articles I've read promote this training method.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (03/05/07 07:50 AM)

Top
#262868 - 03/05/07 09:53 AM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: Leo_E_49]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
1. let me clarify - my position is that a knife and a firearm serve essentially the same purpose - killing people. whil ethe vast majority of what the army does is lethal, in todays reality armies are often called in to use less than lethal force. a stick is perfect for less than lethal force. if I had to commit X time to training, and Y to knife training, I would remove the knife training and replace it with stick training.

2. I understand what you are saying about armor, but a soldier is not a terribly target rich enviroment for a knife. I once saw a friend get hit with a pice of shrapnel from a 155 mm shell, a piece maybe 10 inches by 4 inches - it came zipping through the air and embedded itself in a magazine in his web belt, without breaking his skin. I would not be thrilled about tring to find a spot in a soliders body that I could easiely hit with a knife and kill him. much eaier to shoot.

3. I would be happy to have anybody who actually knows american QCB doctine tell me what I am missing - but from what I know the doctring that the US adopted before the entry into Iraq came directly from Israeli doctine for close quarters - something that I drilled on for tens of thousands of hours. if you look at the opening of the video, you see teams of 3 and 4 men standing very close to each other, going into buildings. this is typically what it is all about - getting two men into a room firing accurate and rapid fire without hitting each other, and having 1 to 2 people close behind them (without getting hit by accident) ready to take their place if one is hit or has a weapons malfuntion.

Top
#262869 - 03/11/07 09:58 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: globetrotter]
govt_issued Offline
Member

Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 42
Loc: Zambia, Africa
Well I will have to admit that I didn't read extremely deep into your conversation between eachother, as I'm pressed for time at the moment, but I'll offer my little bit of input.

I have recieved a decent amount of CQB training, though not certified in it, since my battalion insists on using the "free flow method" of room clearing.

I'll say a couple of things. One is that a bayonette (fixed) and a combat knife (K-bar) are two completely different beasts. You could almost compare a fixed bayonette to a halberd (medieval style). You never hear about people acutally using their bayonettes except in those miraculous old war stories. Where as as far as I'm concerned a combat knife is what you use to level the fighting grounds in a hand to hand fight.

Let's face it. If both your primary and your secondary is jammed or out of ammo, you're A: probably in the army (sorry I couldn't help it)
and B: in a world of sh!t already.

Now nobody wants to bring a knife to a gunfight, but a knife to a baseball bat/stick/baton/pipe/whatever fight is a different story.

It's pretty easy to block a stick no matter how much it hurts you'll still live. Most tangos aren't wearing hard (or even soft )body army like us, and if you get one good jab with a knife in the fight is pretty much over and hopefully your buddies have cleared the rest of the room and are moving upstairs now, and you still get to live to go clean your dirty weapons and maybe reload from all the spray and pray =D
_________________________
Freedom is not free, but the U.S. Marine Corps will pay most of your share. Capt. Dolan USMC

Top
#262870 - 03/14/07 09:19 PM Re: US Modern Army Combatives Program [Re: govt_issued]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
The Army and Marines are better at different things, the army is better at losing and the Marines are better at winning! lol I oculdn't helo THAT! ha ha
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

Top
Page 2 of 5 < 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, Fletch1, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga